This discussion could easily apply to others in the photography business. How many photograpers are doing their own printing now, and how many labs are losing business because of it? There are some photographers who will probably never want to print their own work, but how many labs are going to be left after more and more pros decide to bypass them? Output devices are becoming better and cheaper all the time, and as more pros switch to digital, I think most will want to do their own enlargements. I think the big guys will survive, and the little guys will have to look for another job.
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Business erosion
- Thread starter richard wong80938
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mdante99
Forum Enthusiast
There is competition in every field. I don't believe it is more so in this field than in most others.
There will always be newcomers. Professional Photography is about marketing your skills; less about photography. Marketing skills are much harder to acaquire than a DSLR. I think digital streamlines our workflow, it does not generate any more competitors than there would otherwise have been.
According to Stats 85% of the small businesses fail in the first three years; it is the same for Professional Photographers.
Why?
Lack of capital and lack of marketing skills.
There is no reason to have any extraordinary concerns about your competition; it is prudent to worry about your own business.
You will stand or fall on your own abilities or lack of them,; not because of competition; studies have proven it countless of times.
Mark
Professional Photographer
http://www.afineimage.com
Fuji S-2, Olympus E-10; varied assortment of film cameras and lenses.
There will always be newcomers. Professional Photography is about marketing your skills; less about photography. Marketing skills are much harder to acaquire than a DSLR. I think digital streamlines our workflow, it does not generate any more competitors than there would otherwise have been.
According to Stats 85% of the small businesses fail in the first three years; it is the same for Professional Photographers.
Why?
Lack of capital and lack of marketing skills.
There is no reason to have any extraordinary concerns about your competition; it is prudent to worry about your own business.
You will stand or fall on your own abilities or lack of them,; not because of competition; studies have proven it countless of times.
Mark
Professional Photographer
http://www.afineimage.com
Fuji S-2, Olympus E-10; varied assortment of film cameras and lenses.
Doug Mac65597
Forum Enthusiast
I spent 20 years as a pro before changing careers. I was a good boy and obtained a degree from one of the more well known design schools (Art Center). I had a great time, but missed my family. Luckily, I found a profession that gives me more time at home.
Just before I left the field, there was an influx of weekend wedding photographers. Better film and more automatic equipment opened the door. At the time, Kodak was encouraging studios to abandon wedding photography and replace it with family environmental portraits, selling photography groupings. They trotted out some pros that were making more on three sittings a weekend than they were making at doing high end weddings. All this is to say I agree with the other posters. It seems to me that the trick is to provide value that your competion can't and make sure your customer can perceive this value.
Now for Mark:
I followed your link to your web site. On the home page there are three images - a small photo of a lovely bride and two larger photos of your associates Jennifer and Elena. This is the first thing your potential customers see. Jennifer and Elena are flat lit with flash on camera. Jennifer is washed out and the color balance is off. Both could stand for their hair to by tidied. I don't think either photo is indicative of your work. You have some lovely images elsewhere on the site. Is this the first photos you want your customer to see? Please accept this in the spirit in which is was intended.
Regards,
Doug
Just before I left the field, there was an influx of weekend wedding photographers. Better film and more automatic equipment opened the door. At the time, Kodak was encouraging studios to abandon wedding photography and replace it with family environmental portraits, selling photography groupings. They trotted out some pros that were making more on three sittings a weekend than they were making at doing high end weddings. All this is to say I agree with the other posters. It seems to me that the trick is to provide value that your competion can't and make sure your customer can perceive this value.
Now for Mark:
I followed your link to your web site. On the home page there are three images - a small photo of a lovely bride and two larger photos of your associates Jennifer and Elena. This is the first thing your potential customers see. Jennifer and Elena are flat lit with flash on camera. Jennifer is washed out and the color balance is off. Both could stand for their hair to by tidied. I don't think either photo is indicative of your work. You have some lovely images elsewhere on the site. Is this the first photos you want your customer to see? Please accept this in the spirit in which is was intended.
Regards,
Doug
Kevin Roczey
Senior Member
Excellent example.
At some point, you can't change the tide...
How many labs could have been doing color management and calibration consulting, archival testing and consulting etc. etc. If they are in the business of serving photographers, then they need to understand what photographers need, and adapt. You need to remember what business your in and either evolve with it or decide that it's not the business you wanted to be in.
Kevin R.
At some point, you can't change the tide...
How many labs could have been doing color management and calibration consulting, archival testing and consulting etc. etc. If they are in the business of serving photographers, then they need to understand what photographers need, and adapt. You need to remember what business your in and either evolve with it or decide that it's not the business you wanted to be in.
Kevin R.
Kevin ,
I agree that companies have to adapt in order to keep their clientel. I was just musing on how ironic it would be if some photographers bemoaned the fact that others were doing "their" job, and at the same time, they were printing enlargements that would have previously been done at a lab.
I agree that companies have to adapt in order to keep their clientel. I was just musing on how ironic it would be if some photographers bemoaned the fact that others were doing "their" job, and at the same time, they were printing enlargements that would have previously been done at a lab.
Kevin Roczey
Senior Member
Hi Darren,
That's the difficult part. It's hard to "see" if the current fad will pass (as in your 'cooler heads prevailed' example) or if it's truly a sign of new times. It's a little bit of guesswork sometimes but that's all you have. My take is that 1) you should all be flattered. Look at how many people "want" to take pictures. 2) photography is going through a digital evolution that will require you to evolve with it. Some people at first thought it was going to be a "revolution". 3) Embrace the change and learn new things and challenge yourself to step out of your box 4) And to quote Darrens "Pursue your bliss".
Sometimes we've hired people that used to be self employed. I always would ask them, "You had your OWN business, why would you want to work for us?" Their answer would always be "Well, I started my own business because I wanted to be a Training Consultant (replace with whatever profession fits) but I found out that having your own business involves a lot of other things so I actually don't "train" very much at all. I'd like to have a job where someone else is taking care of the business stuff and I can focus on my skill". For some, It may be better to work for the right someone then yourself. For others it may not. Look at what you find happiness in and try to do more of it
Another one of the 7 habits of highly effective people comes to mind; #7 Sharpen the Saw. Are you trying to cut down a forest with a dull saw? How much time do you spend being good at what you do and having the right tools so that your are always evolving as well? Do you spend any time learning about your industry, understanding how the customer percieves your business, learning of other industries that has similarities or that have dealt with similar issues.
Thanks for reading,
Kevin R.
That's the difficult part. It's hard to "see" if the current fad will pass (as in your 'cooler heads prevailed' example) or if it's truly a sign of new times. It's a little bit of guesswork sometimes but that's all you have. My take is that 1) you should all be flattered. Look at how many people "want" to take pictures. 2) photography is going through a digital evolution that will require you to evolve with it. Some people at first thought it was going to be a "revolution". 3) Embrace the change and learn new things and challenge yourself to step out of your box 4) And to quote Darrens "Pursue your bliss".
Sometimes we've hired people that used to be self employed. I always would ask them, "You had your OWN business, why would you want to work for us?" Their answer would always be "Well, I started my own business because I wanted to be a Training Consultant (replace with whatever profession fits) but I found out that having your own business involves a lot of other things so I actually don't "train" very much at all. I'd like to have a job where someone else is taking care of the business stuff and I can focus on my skill". For some, It may be better to work for the right someone then yourself. For others it may not. Look at what you find happiness in and try to do more of it
Another one of the 7 habits of highly effective people comes to mind; #7 Sharpen the Saw. Are you trying to cut down a forest with a dull saw? How much time do you spend being good at what you do and having the right tools so that your are always evolving as well? Do you spend any time learning about your industry, understanding how the customer percieves your business, learning of other industries that has similarities or that have dealt with similar issues.
Thanks for reading,
Kevin R.
I ahve read all the comments so far in the thread.
Interesting.
I buy photographic services and get paid that "hundreds of dollars a page idea" further down the thread.
I will tell you why we keep or dismiss phoitographers.
Their ability to work with us.
Some are more skilled some are hacks but the consistent performers that need little supervision get the bulk of the work.
And, sorry to say, but the digital revolution is simply weeding out a lot of the average photographers that depended on thier skill with archaic and finicky technologies to get by on versus their ability to sell their services and produce on time.
I can shoot about 70% of the prodcut shots I need if I had too. I don't have the time. Nor do I have the time to deal with semi-pros either that need me to hold their hand in the process or have to beg to get work in on schedule.
The good pros aren't sweating the digital revolution too much. The general economy is another thing :-/
Interesting.
I buy photographic services and get paid that "hundreds of dollars a page idea" further down the thread.
I will tell you why we keep or dismiss phoitographers.
Their ability to work with us.
Some are more skilled some are hacks but the consistent performers that need little supervision get the bulk of the work.
And, sorry to say, but the digital revolution is simply weeding out a lot of the average photographers that depended on thier skill with archaic and finicky technologies to get by on versus their ability to sell their services and produce on time.
I can shoot about 70% of the prodcut shots I need if I had too. I don't have the time. Nor do I have the time to deal with semi-pros either that need me to hold their hand in the process or have to beg to get work in on schedule.
The good pros aren't sweating the digital revolution too much. The general economy is another thing :-/
Kevin Roczey
Senior Member
I'm getting a good chuckle out of that myself
It's just from a different perspective. From look at what I can do now, the money I will save! And, look at the business they are taking from me. It's just a matter of which end you're on.
Kevin R.
It's just from a different perspective. From look at what I can do now, the money I will save! And, look at the business they are taking from me. It's just a matter of which end you're on.
Kevin R.
Kevin Roczey
Senior Member
Hokie,
Excellent. Thanks for posting your comments. It's very interesting to see the "other" side of the coint. Very valuable comments.
Kevin R.
Excellent. Thanks for posting your comments. It's very interesting to see the "other" side of the coint. Very valuable comments.
Kevin R.
mdante99
Forum Enthusiast
Hi Doug:
Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
We will fix the problems.
Your comments are very much appreciated.
Mark
Professional Photographer
http://www.afineimage.com
Fuji S-2, Olympus E-10; varied assortment of film cameras and lenses.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
We will fix the problems.
Your comments are very much appreciated.
Mark
--
Professional Photographer
http://www.afineimage.com
Fuji S-2, Olympus E-10; varied assortment of film cameras and lenses.
Kevin Roczey
Senior Member
Mark,
Beautifully well done opening page. If that doesn't get the business I don't know what will! Where's your picture?
Kevin R.
Beautifully well done opening page. If that doesn't get the business I don't know what will! Where's your picture?
Kevin R.
Michael Long
Senior Member
There's a classic Business Review article and book titled "Marketing Myopia" by Theodore Levitt that discusses how businesses need to be customer, and not product based.
One example is the rise and fall of the railroad dynasties. Why the fall? Because they saw themselves as being in the railroad business--a product orientation.
They didn't realize that they were actually in the transportation business--a marketing orientation, and as such fell prey to the advent of the auto and airplane.
Others have mention marketing, communications, and service. Sometimes, however, you just have to be fast on your feet. Technology can transform industries overnight.
You're upset at the changes wrought by digital photography? Try being Polaroid.
mdante99
Forum Enthusiast
Thanks for the compliments on the website.
I am an ugly guy; you don't want to look at me.
I just have the pleasure of having beautiful associates.
Mark
Professional Photographer
http://www.afineimage.com
Fuji S-2, Olympus E-10; varied assortment of film cameras and lenses.
I am an ugly guy; you don't want to look at me.
I just have the pleasure of having beautiful associates.
Mark
--Beautifully well done opening page. If that doesn't get the
business I don't know what will! Where's your picture?
Kevin R.
Professional Photographer
http://www.afineimage.com
Fuji S-2, Olympus E-10; varied assortment of film cameras and lenses.
Kevin Roczey
Senior Member
That's actually a very good exercise to go through.
It's important to be customer focused. But it is also important to be product aware. Step back and look at what your product is objectively to see "who" your customers might be. Taking the railroad example. Because they had all the right of ways across the country they made a fortune from fiber optic companies that needed to lay cable for the internet explosion (and subsequent implosion). Sounds like a good book to read though (falls under the "Sharpen the Saw category
Kevin R.
It's important to be customer focused. But it is also important to be product aware. Step back and look at what your product is objectively to see "who" your customers might be. Taking the railroad example. Because they had all the right of ways across the country they made a fortune from fiber optic companies that needed to lay cable for the internet explosion (and subsequent implosion). Sounds like a good book to read though (falls under the "Sharpen the Saw category
Kevin R.
Adrian Barrera
Well-known member
Hi Guys,
I strongly agree with Michael Long, a professional photographer must add value to his/her work such that the customer will not hesitate to abandon us just because someone does it cheaper or because the customer can get similar results.
I own several business in very different lines of work......and it never fails that some company somewhere comes out with a product so freaking revolutionary(DSLR) that it makes our job so easy that our own customers might prefer to do it themselves. I personally would be disappointed if my customers were not always trying to replace my services/product....any company worth anything wil try to cut expenditures all the time.
On the other hand, I am always working on making my product/service irreplaceable by adding value.....such that if my customer decides to set up shop for themselves it won't be worth it to them.
Place yourself in your customers shoes for a while.....it might give you a rude awakening.
My advice to those photographers that have lost work to amateurs and in-house staff.....call your customer up and ask them why the change occured. You might be surprised by what they answer(trust me I'v been there). Talk it over with them to see if some kind of NEW arrangement can be made. I don't mean lowering your price....I mean adding some item that will make it more valuable to your customer such that they abandon the idea of replacing your service/product. I have saved countless account with just a simple phone call. Just like you wnat them back.....sometimes they want to come back but are too embarrased to call you. Make it easy for them and make the first call.
Thanks
Adrian
I strongly agree with Michael Long, a professional photographer must add value to his/her work such that the customer will not hesitate to abandon us just because someone does it cheaper or because the customer can get similar results.
I own several business in very different lines of work......and it never fails that some company somewhere comes out with a product so freaking revolutionary(DSLR) that it makes our job so easy that our own customers might prefer to do it themselves. I personally would be disappointed if my customers were not always trying to replace my services/product....any company worth anything wil try to cut expenditures all the time.
On the other hand, I am always working on making my product/service irreplaceable by adding value.....such that if my customer decides to set up shop for themselves it won't be worth it to them.
Place yourself in your customers shoes for a while.....it might give you a rude awakening.
My advice to those photographers that have lost work to amateurs and in-house staff.....call your customer up and ask them why the change occured. You might be surprised by what they answer(trust me I'v been there). Talk it over with them to see if some kind of NEW arrangement can be made. I don't mean lowering your price....I mean adding some item that will make it more valuable to your customer such that they abandon the idea of replacing your service/product. I have saved countless account with just a simple phone call. Just like you wnat them back.....sometimes they want to come back but are too embarrased to call you. Make it easy for them and make the first call.
Thanks
Adrian
These kind of threads pop up once in a while on this forum. While interesting, I think pros should stop complaining. You all started somewhere, sometime and were as threatening to the working pros of that time as they newcomers are to you now.
If you were good, you were a real threat and you deserved your success. If you would have been bad, you would now be doing something else and the threat you posed was only a temporary one.
A client has every right to take his own pictures, no matter how bad they may be. You guys have every right to complain about the trend, but it's better to face it head on, focus on your strengths and the many advantages of digital for your work.
I say this as a journalist...the competition we face from amateurs and other would-be journalists is protected by the First Amendment and doesn't even take a camera, just pen and paper...
If you were good, you were a real threat and you deserved your success. If you would have been bad, you would now be doing something else and the threat you posed was only a temporary one.
A client has every right to take his own pictures, no matter how bad they may be. You guys have every right to complain about the trend, but it's better to face it head on, focus on your strengths and the many advantages of digital for your work.
I say this as a journalist...the competition we face from amateurs and other would-be journalists is protected by the First Amendment and doesn't even take a camera, just pen and paper...
josef armendariz
Well-known member
Sorry John, but it's those kind of arguments that have photography as a industry in trouble. I suggest you head over to an ASMP board and talk to other journalist before making such flippant comments. It's even more troubling coming from a journalist, considering Journalist (unless you have already signed your work-for-hire contracts) are the most hardest hit, losing rights left and right.
What I don't see so much is a business erosion from clients taking their own pictures, but of other photographers with a non-chalant attitude toward this conduct. Remember that the work you enjoy and the money you enjoy making from it, are there because of pros complaining and setting standards and work ethics. Pretty soon clients will have the 'rights' to hire you to take photographs you don't own...oops, or is that already happened?
Josef
-flames to the board please-
What I don't see so much is a business erosion from clients taking their own pictures, but of other photographers with a non-chalant attitude toward this conduct. Remember that the work you enjoy and the money you enjoy making from it, are there because of pros complaining and setting standards and work ethics. Pretty soon clients will have the 'rights' to hire you to take photographs you don't own...oops, or is that already happened?
Josef
-flames to the board please-
Kevin Roczey
Senior Member
Finally someone takes issue with that "it's all your own fault" post! Josef, is there an online resource for Professional Photographers that outline the do's and dont's, standards, ethics, etc? Non-chalance is a troublesome condition. People can determine importance based on how you react to a situation. I'm always surprised when someone posts something in these forums about copying software etc. They get jumped on all over about illegal copywright this and that, and how would you like if someone stole your photo's, etc. And it's refreshing...it's nice to see people take it seriously and to see the degree with which you care about your business and livelihood. You have to determine where your "lines in the sand" are, and only choose those that you're willing to defend to the end.
Kevin R.
Kevin R.
Michael Long
Senior Member
Near as I can tell, the original poster said that he had noticed a potential trend, and wondered if anyone else had seen the same thing.
I didn't read it as a complaint.
First we shouldn't, now we can...
At any rate, if you'd read the entire thread, you probably would have seen that that the majority of posts AGREE with you.
Anyone who doesn't offer service, communication, value, and other skills probably deserves what he gets.
Corey Gray
Active member
Yep 'er, just bought me a scalpel. Gonna start doin' surgery.
We headed right where we deserve to be as a nation.
If you can buy the tool, you can certainly gain the skills to utilize it.
With this mentality, I might buy a Strad' and become the next ' World's Greatest Violinist ' ( probably couldn't make enough to pay of the fiddle though).
We headed right where we deserve to be as a nation.
If you can buy the tool, you can certainly gain the skills to utilize it.
With this mentality, I might buy a Strad' and become the next ' World's Greatest Violinist ' ( probably couldn't make enough to pay of the fiddle though).
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