New Pro in town!

scabcrashmore · Mar 14, 2009

photolando said:
How do people get jobs like this? No experience. Haven't a clue how
to do it. She doesn't even know how to light it! Really. How do
they get hired? They got a nice camera? Give me a break!

She probably knows the person organizing this or someone who knows someone etc. I was offered a similar job recently. This person is a friend of a friend. They have no idea what my level of experience is for this type of job. I have two theories on clients such as this. They are either a)expecting the photographer to be honest about their skill level and ability, or, b) have the same belief about camera's making the pro. Theory "A" is probably the most common. I know the amount of work, time and manpower that goes into this kind of event. Therefore I quickly declined.

If I were the OP, I would probably tell her that I couldn't begin to attempt such a feat (to let you off the hook as a bailout) and that she should STRONGLY reconsider. Then wash your hands of it. Any involvement will most likely haunt you.

--
Anthony G.
Louisville, Ky.

To be yourself, and no one else, in a world that tries to make you like everyone else, is
to fight the greatest battle any man can fight and to never quit fighting.
e.e. cummings

http://www.preludeimages.com

MusicDoctorDJ · Mar 15, 2009

photolando said:
Or what might want to do is print out a lot of the replies you see
here from people like myself and others who have done this sort of
thing or from those know she just isn't capable of doing a decent job
and show them to the committee. That way it's not just you saying
whether or not she can do the job. You'll have references that back
up your claim.

Or if you do have another committee meeting, I would, in front of the
committee, ask her about all the points we have brought up here so
others can hear what she says and then obviously know they really
should consider someone with a little more experience.

But I would also add that it's not that she a good photographer. She
may take great shots with her camera but there is more to this than
she realizes.

The best way to ruin your own good reputation (assuming you have one) is to start publicly badmouthing others to get jobs.

Even though this woman may not be direct competition to a real pro photographer, pointing out her shortcomings to a committee, especially with her sitting right there, will not gain you any friends and/or future business.

Unfortunately, this group will just have to use her this time and learn their lesson through the school of hard knocks.

On the other hand . . . she may just surprise us all and pull it off!

But using tactics as described above is simply not the right choice of solution for this shoot, or any other shoot for that matter.

Not to mention that the fact remains that it really is not the OP's job to be the white knight who has been chosen by the Gods to be the savior of this dance!

The woman he has talked about in this topic has chosen to take on this assignment herself, and the committe has taken it upon themselves to allow her to do it!

So it is up to her to see it through . . . not the OP.

--
J. D.
Colorado

Remember . . . always keep your receipt, the box, and everything that came in it!

photolando · Mar 15, 2009

So, that's your opinion. I would have no problem trying to help someone or committee like this that may need a little advice on how to make sure their event goes off without a hitch.

I was making the assumption the Op would be tactful. He doesn't need to take over the job, just give advice an what this woman needs to be aware of. I'm sure his experience would at least be taken into consideration and very much appreciated.

Yeah, trying to be helpful and help someone do a better job. That will make you look so bad. Gimmee a break.

Mike

Don_D · Mar 15, 2009

photolando said:
Or if you do have another committee meeting, I would, in front of the
committee, ask her about all the points we have brought up here so
others can hear what she says and then obviously know they really
should consider someone with a little more experience.

I agree with MusicDoctor. To embarrass her, to dress her down in front of others (which is what this approach will do) or at the very least start a public argument is a terrible idea. This woman cannot be convinced in private and will not yield to the OP's arguments in public.

Even though he is correct, the OP would look petty and win no friends by this approach.

--
Don
http://www.pbase.com/dond

Jeff Behm · Mar 15, 2009

Given this info, I retract any earlier suggestions to try to assist her for the sake of the dance. She's obviously much too special to listen to experience.

dscf said:
I'll try to answer some questions.

This woman is on the dance party committee at the school. At a
meeting, photographs were mentioned. She jumped up and said, "I can
do it!". The committee said "GREAT!" and moved on. That's how she got
the job.

There's your "in".

dscf said:
No she doesn't have a second camera.

There's the first of several signs of poor planning

dscf said:
I believe every family will want photos. It is a special occasion.
They are dressed up. The economy should not play a part, as it is one
of the wealthiest communities in the northeast.

There's your great opportunity - for good or ill.

dscf said:
She is gung-ho and wants to do it all herself. I am not hoping for
her to fail. I am just disappointed at her attitude. She thinks she
knows it all. She has an answer for every consideration I bring up.

There's the arrogant disregard of experience.

dscf said:
I'm sorry this thread has to drag on for another six weeks. "D-Day"
is May 1, so I won't hear what happened until May 2 or 3.

Yeah, May 1st will seem a long way off. Thanks for this update on her attitudes. Time will tell whether it's ignorance, arrogance or confidence that's driving her. I guess we'll find out in May. Do let us know...
--
jrbehm
http://www.jeffbehm.com

sixspeed24 · Mar 15, 2009

Poor lady,...she'll find out the hard way, and it will probably be such a disaster, she may never pursue something like this again. I can recall train wrecks I've had even with 35 years of experience.

JulesJ · Mar 15, 2009

I agree. Todays cameras can easily turn out a perfectly exposed picture. The shooter knows how to use the camera so what's the problem with doing the school shoot? School shot pictures are notoriously bad to average and many future good portraitists cut their teeth on such work. She do just fine. Gone are the days when you had to wait for the lab to Doig's job just to see if you had got things right.
Jules
--

A photograph is a secret about a secret. The more it tells you the less you know. Arbus.

Jay Bean · Mar 15, 2009

My idea got side tracked into a negative alternate that was not my intention. I said nothing about dressing her down or saying anything negative about her and I agree that would be a bad strategy. Simply siad, the OP would go in and make his own proposal for the job, if they awarded it to him. Maybe once hearing his proposal, they'll reconsider and award the job to him. He doesn't need to say nor should he say a thing about her plan at all.

Jay Bean said:
dscf said:

I am a pro school photographer. A mom "with a good digital camera"
spoke to me at a school I recently photographed. She said she would
like to take pro portraits.

She emailed me a few days ago. She took on a job in May -- 200
families at a "Dad & Daughter Dance". She asked me what kind of
lights she'd need, and any other tips.

I replied that there is much more to a pro job than a good camera. I
asked, "Could you physically handle the job of photographing a few
hundred families in the time allowed?"

Here's her reply:

"Truly the one part I think I'm most confident with is the
"physically handling the job" part. I'm good on the fly. (Ex-sales
gal, taken loads of families with small kids portraits, amateur
actress not afraid to make weird faces and noises I think it
could be 150 - 200 attendees. I know, it's big and daunting - but
I'm totally fired up. I've taken some nice outdoor beach family
portraits."

I tried to explain that photographing a family on the beach or a
single kid's shot is not the same as rapid assembly-line photography
at a dance.

I recommended some lighting kits that might be of use. She has never
shot with pro lights. I guess she'll learn everything on the job. If
it takes her two minutes per family, (which I doubt she could handle)
that's almost seven hours of nonstop work. The dance is only three
hours long.

Oh, she also has no idea what to do with the image files after she
shoots them, has no photo background, and no posing bench.

But.....she has a good digital camera. So she's a pro.

Click to expand...

--

lbuclk= · Mar 15, 2009

Jeff Behm said:
newsshooterjim said:

I really hate the way this is going to go for the dads/daughters.

Click to expand...

Hear! Hear!

Your story really hit a nerve, Jim. In addition to having my own
beloved daughter, I was fortunate enough to also gain a brace of
daughters through my fiance. Looking back, even the tough times are
moments to remember. These photos COULD be treasures for those who
elect to take advantage of the opportunity. Hey, I have 12-15 year
old finger paintings on my fridge. A photo if taken, would be there
or framed on a desk.

It would be best if this woman could see her way clear (or be
enticed) to ask for help from the OP, and he be gracious enough to
assist. I know that's not the tough minded business set I often
take, but the client is best served in this manner and the OP stands
to gain in the long run. Perhaps if the OP could show HER the
concerns of this forum.... even if just by cut and paste into an
email or memo.
--
jrbehm
http://www.jeffbehm.com

--

While we all know,all of the technical do's & don't s, we started somewhere, made lots of mistakes, let this person have her shoot. Its her customers who will be the judges, not us with all of our collective skills. If she has real motivation,she will progress. The dads will enjoy their photos, for some it may be their only photo with their daughter that may last for decades. From a photo business stand, the shots will not be the standard cookie cutter studio/location shots, just photos that a lot of them will enjoy. Lets not sit on Mount Olympus and look down on the mere mortals.

28 years as a freelancer,(news,magazine, wedding photography) camera equip. over the years: Practica MLT, Canon A1, Minolta 9xi, 7xi, Dimage Z1,Fuji 5200,Canon S2,Pentax K100D,Olympus 380,Canon SX 10 ( http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v104/Buckl/ )

http://mainstreets.blogspot.com/

natureman · Mar 15, 2009

dscf said:
I am a pro school photographer. A mom "with a good digital camera"
spoke to me at a school I recently photographed. She said she would
like to take pro portraits.

She emailed me a few days ago. She took on a job in May -- 200
families at a "Dad & Daughter Dance". She asked me what kind of
lights she'd need, and any other tips.

I replied that there is much more to a pro job than a good camera. I
asked, "Could you physically handle the job of photographing a few
hundred families in the time allowed?"

Here's her reply:

"Truly the one part I think I'm most confident with is the
"physically handling the job" part. I'm good on the fly. (Ex-sales
gal, taken loads of families with small kids portraits, amateur
actress not afraid to make weird faces and noises I think it
could be 150 - 200 attendees. I know, it's big and daunting - but
I'm totally fired up. I've taken some nice outdoor beach family
portraits."

I tried to explain that photographing a family on the beach or a
single kid's shot is not the same as rapid assembly-line photography
at a dance.

I recommended some lighting kits that might be of use. She has never
shot with pro lights. I guess she'll learn everything on the job. If
it takes her two minutes per family, (which I doubt she could handle)
that's almost seven hours of nonstop work. The dance is only three
hours long.

Oh, she also has no idea what to do with the image files after she
shoots them, has no photo background, and no posing bench.

But.....she has a good digital camera. So she's a pro.

I'm wondering why you posted this here. Was it so you could make fun of the woman to the world and make yourself out to be a big shot? Does she know you're posting her email to you here? I notice that you were quick to call your self a "pro school photographer". Does that mean you photograph schools, or the people who attend them?

It seems to me you're also having some trouble with your math. 150-200 "attendees" means a maximum of 100 couples (dad and daughter). At "two minutes" per couple, that would be 200 minutes maximum ("nonstop"). Last time I checked, 200 minutes doesn't equal "almost seven hours of nonstop work". The couples would be posing together, wouldn't they?

By the way, does she call herself a "pro" or did you say "So she's a pro." just to further ridicule her?

Yeah, she's probably biting off more than she can chew, and the pictures she takes may suck, and she may make a fool of herself, and may regret doing the job, but at least she isn't here on an international forum acting like an arrogant "pro" jerk.

professorgb · Mar 15, 2009

I don't think that calling the OP a jerk is really called for here. The OP was quite reasonable and rational in presenting the situation. As I read it, he isn't comparing himself to this woman or even making fun of her. What he is doing is pointing out yet another instance of an amateur getting in over her head, asking for advice (with no recognition that she might be his competition), and then ignoring that advice.

She is doing two things wrong, by my way of thinking. First, she's asking for advice and then blowing it off without properly acknowledging the advice or time he has provided. Second, and much worse, is that she stands a very good chance of ruining the photos. Every time I shoot a portrait, I sweat bullets worrying that I might screw up. To me, it's just a job, but to my client it's a memory. Her excitement has gotten in the way of her concern for the client, and that's not right.

Maybe my opinion makes me another "arrogant 'pro' jerk," but I guess that's a hat I'll have to wear.

natureman said:
Yeah, she's probably biting off more than she can chew, and the
pictures she takes may suck, and she may make a fool of herself, and
may regret doing the job, but at least she isn't here on an
international forum acting like an arrogant "pro" jerk.

rjjr · Mar 15, 2009

natureman said:
at least she isn't here on an
international forum acting like an arrogant "pro" jerk.

And so are you.

--

natureman said:
I would be overjoyed if you and rjjr would ignore me, instead of
stalking me. I would also be overjoyed if you would both drop dead.

You're demented

To say you're nuts would be a major understatement

natureman · Mar 16, 2009

professorgb said:
I don't think that calling the OP a jerk is really called for here.

And I don't think the OPs or your condescending remarks about the woman are called for here.

professorgb said:
The OP was quite reasonable and rational in presenting the situation.
As I read it, he isn't comparing himself to this woman or even making
fun of her. What he is doing is pointing out yet another instance of
an amateur getting in over her head, asking for advice (with no
recognition that she might be his competition)

Huh? No recognition that she might be his competition? What's that supposed to mean?

professorgb said:
, and then ignoring
that advice.

She is doing two things wrong, by my way of thinking. First, she's
asking for advice and then blowing it off without properly
acknowledging the advice or time he has provided.

You don't know what advice he has given her except that which he claims in this thread, and to say she blew it off or ignored it "without properly acknowledging the advice or time he has provided" is ridiculous. She may very well take some of his "advice" and be very thankful for it for all anyone here knows. Just because she doesn't bow down to a "pro school photographer" and do exactly what he says doesn't mean she blew him off.

professorgb said:
Second, and much
worse, is that she stands a very good chance of ruining the > photos.

Yep, there is a chance of that, but she may do a good job.

professorgb said:
Every time I shoot a portrait, I sweat bullets worrying that I might
screw up. To me, it's just a job, but to my client it's a memory.
Her excitement has gotten in the way of her concern for the client,
and that's not right.

Maybe my opinion makes me another "arrogant 'pro' jerk," but I guess
that's a hat I'll have to wear.

Well, after looking at the remarks you made in other posts in this thread, it's obvious to me that you see her as a wannabe would be pro who will surely produce "cr@p", and as a competitor, especially if there are "fifteen of her" who will be responsible for "30 to 45 lost jobs", and that "we" need protection from "people like this woman" and "the whole group of people like her" and that "we have to allow this woman to crash and burn". "we"? "allow"?

You also said "the 200-300 attendees" when the numbers are actually 150-200 attendees. Exaggerating the numbers weakens your points.

No one guaranteed you customers when you went into the photography business. You have to earn them.

professorgb said:
natureman said:

Yeah, she's probably biting off more than she can chew, and the
pictures she takes may suck, and she may make a fool of herself, and
may regret doing the job, but at least she isn't here on an
international forum acting like an arrogant "pro" jerk.

Click to expand...

digifan · Mar 16, 2009

you are one more SCARED PRO afraid of giving good advice that might be taken and help the other person.

Could it be you are less pro than you say you are? Or you just wanna boast about your skils?

I mean come on, if this lady is a total stranger I would tell her that I don't want to teach her.

If you do want to help her than help her and let her see the err of the situation. You could point out to her she will go flat on her face if doing it alone the way she intents to handle it and do the math for her. It takes a pretty experienced crew to set up the Dad and Daughter shoot and finish in 90 minutes. You have to plan and line them up directly otherwise you won't even get the chance to shoot them all.

I mean just to belittle a person on her D40, that wants to start photography for money and then complain about it here is showing insecurity, I'd add.
Good luck with whatever you do.

dscf said:
carl english said:

Just curious, how much time would you need to shoot that number of
people?

Click to expand...

I've shot plenty of these events. I'd bring another seasoned pro with
me and finish the whole job in about 90 minutes.

The point here is that a snapshot shooter buys a Nikon D40, gets some
nice outdoor flash portraits with the camera set on "Program", and
immediately thinks she can handle any pro job that comes along.

Event date is May 1 so I won't have the results until then. Aside
from offering her a bit of advice, I will not get involved.

--
Digifan

digifan · Mar 16, 2009

Ianp said:
I do not think the OP
should teach this amateur, why should he?

exactly. The only thing I would do if it was an acquaintance is I'd calculate the time needed for her and point certain risks and then I would say she would be on her own and she has to decide what to do.

Ianp said:
If the pro helps this amateur
enough for her to scrape through, no one will know except perhaps the
amateur and even she will think she could have done it herself
anyway; and she will get the job again next year. That doesn’t help
the profession.

Why not? If they want good pictures they will hire a real pro next time.

Ianp said:
Perhaps the OP should appeal directly to the
committee and maybe they’ll see the problem, or maybe he could offer
to help for a substantial portion of the fee.
I think it all comes down to a lack respect for the profession;

This is downright silly. What respect for the profession. This is really laughable.

Ianp said:
lack of respect from the boards that oversee these events and lack of
respect from the amateurs who see a quick way to make a buck without
realising the problems there lack of experience creates for all
involved and that unfortunately involves (in this case) the fathers
and daughters.

This is talk of, insecure, maybe not so good professionals.

I'd say let the amateur try if she manages it's fine. If not, the real pro might get the job again next time and they wouldn't consider budgetting that part anymore.

--
Digifan

digifan · Mar 16, 2009

To me it looks like natureman has a VERY VALID point.

Also to me it looked like the OP just came to make fun of "a wannabee pro with a D40".

Anyway I find selfdefined so-called pro's very annoying with their cocky attitude.

A real confident pro doesn't need to shove people around and will do his/her work quietly without any fuzz.

rjjr said:
natureman said:

at least she isn't here on an
international forum acting like an arrogant "pro" jerk.

Click to expand...

And so are you.

--

natureman said:

I would be overjoyed if you and rjjr would ignore me, instead of
stalking me. I would also be overjoyed if you would both drop dead.

You're demented

To say you're nuts would be a major understatement

Click to expand...

--
Digifan

digifan · Mar 16, 2009

What a total load of cr@p is this post. It's people like you and your insecurenes what threatens the photography business pompous rude .... well you get the drift.

The OP made a post that imo is totally uncalled for, belittling people with "starter" camera's that wanna earn money.

Well the OP "dscf" has a choice not to advise her or if she does want to advise her, than at least advise her well. I think "the business" has enough ego trippers as it is, and we don't need those who make fun of others just so they feel bigger/better.

Every Pro started at some point be it as an assistant or just by persevering and make it themselves.

In this world it's free to ask advise and it's nice when you get it. If not you will have to find your own way.

I'm really sick of these belittling posts in the so called Pro forum.

professorgb said:
As a profession, we have two basic protections. First of all, like
the OP we have to allow this woman to crash and burn. Either she
will learn not to do this kind of thing again and become more
realistic, or she will simply quit.

Second, we need to educate the would-be pros so that they stop doing
this work so lightly. I am a small business, but in the past two
years have invested in excess of $6,000 in equipment. If I had gone
with top-tier equipment, my costs would have been triple that. I
need to earn the money to cover my costs and make a profit. If these
wannabes are given the true story--long hours, obnoxious clients (at
times), ridiculous expenses that come from a technology that evolves
by the hour, and artistic self-doubt--maybe they will stop before
they start. Maybe.

In the end, I suppose it will come down to marketing. If we can get
to the client before people like this woman do, we can continue
generating revenue.

Jay Bean said:

The harsh reality is that whether she can or cannot do the job, she
is now your competitor and will be taking business away from you.

Click to expand...

--
Digifan

digifan · Mar 16, 2009

Jeff Behm said:
Jeff Behm said:

Problem with this is that she probably didn't quote a high enough
price to actually make any money off of this shoot, so there may not
be much to split.

Click to expand...

Yep, that's why I have that "fee that suits you" phrase in there.
This deal has potential for splashing back on our OP in ways that may
be bad for his rep. I figured to at least give him the encouragement
to look at it from that perspective.

Man it's getting to the point of rediculous, the mere posts of insecure pro's is appalling.
Let this lady do her shoot and she'll find out what it is to shoot for a living.

Good or bad result either way it will be good for pro photographers. We'll have more competition which means we should get better lifting the level or she does badly and a real pro gets the job next time.
What drives a person to want to shoot something like this is their beef.
Everybody had his own reason(s) to go pro photo.

----
Digifan

MusicDoctorDJ · Mar 16, 2009

digifan said:
If you do want to help her than help her and let her see the err of
the situation. You could point out to her she will go flat on her
face if doing it alone the way she intents to handle it and do the
math for her. It takes a pretty experienced crew to set up the Dad
and Daughter shoot and finish in 90 minutes. You have to plan and
line them up directly otherwise you won't even get the chance to
shoot them all.

To say that nobody could do this type of shoot by themselves is not true.

I could do this shoot by myself . . . and have done many shoots like this one and many more that were way more extensive than this shoot . . . by myself.

Matter of fact, I basically worked by myself throughout my entire 20+ year full time career . . . rarely ever having an assistant to help me.

I do agree, however, that this particular gig is going to be difficult for her, but I don't think it is impossible for this gal to pull it off successfully.

But I'm sure she will be having second thoughts about taking on another shoot like this again next time around without at least a little more planning on her part.

And hopefully with some lessons learned from this first shoot.

Other than that, I'm pretty much in line with your thinking on this topic.

--
J. D.
Colorado

Nikoneer · Mar 16, 2009

Are you possibly the person being discussed here, or find yourself in a similar position?

The reason I ask is that you are behaving like a petulant child, sniping at anyone who has seen this too many times to just ignore it.

You have certainly attacked one or two who are very good at their job, so maybe you should consider that they could have a valid point of view

A can do attitude is great, but not if it can't be backed up with something tangible i.e some preperation or professionalism towards the job in hand.

Maybe the lady will do well, but I suspect not, becausethe odds are not looking good and therefore it is the clients who will suffer.

It may be that subsequently all "pro's" are tarred with the same brush in the eyes of the unsuspecting clients.

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