New Pro in town!

Better yet, grab a Hi Def video camera, 3 hours of tape, set it and forget it.

Set up an area with a backdrop and some hot lights. Camera pointed where the guests will stand. Big sign over the camera that says "Stand on the X, look at the camera, smile for 2 seconds and move along." In post, grab the frames that look good.

She doesn't even need to be there. Go grab a coffee and come back when the event is over. Why risk the the ulcers?
--
I intend to live forever, or die trying.
-Groucho Marx

Robotnik12356 said:

I think you guys are being pretty harsh. Everyone was a noob once and
the lady sounds like she's got the sort of motivation needed to
succeed. She'll manage well enough most probably.

Click to expand...

You guys have got me thinking even more about telling this lady anything.

If I recommend lighting, such as Calumet monolights, then I have to teach her portrait lighting. She doesn't have a flash meter. ("What's a flash meter?") There's no way to judge correct lighting on the LCD.

She has no idea what to charge. Her friends on the photo committee will come up with a price like $4 for a 5x7 and four wallets and she'll say "OK", because she knows it would cost her $2 at Walmart. Wow, she can make $2 profit per family!

She has no imaging software, no color lab to use, no thought of packaging/delivery. What else is there to consider?

Yes, a noob needs a chance like anybody else. But start with a small job, not 200 families in a high-pressure situation.

I would not be surpised if the final outcome is that she shoots the job with the D40 handheld, posing people in front of a wall as they walk in, using the pop-up flash, one shot per family.

Even if she had the entire 3 hours to work with. Which she won't. She has about 90 seconds to shoot every pair in three hours. Non stop. Right. That ain't gonna happen.

How do people get jobs like this? No experience. Haven't a clue how to do it. She doesn't even know how to light it! Really. How do they get hired? They got a nice camera? Give me a break!

Sorry, there is no way in heck she will pull this off. At least without making the organizers and the mom and daughters very very upset. Everything from the long wait because she sill take too long to pose and shoot them to her not getting everyone because, well, it takes one person longer than three hours to shoot 200 couples! Then the lighting will be horrible. So will the posing.

No this isn't fine portraiture but the organizers and the people who probably had to pay something for this dance and or photo deserve at least someone who knows how to do this.

I have done several proms and homecoming to know what this involves. This at the least is a two person job. A poser would help as well. So would some working knowledge of lighting and posing. Unbelievable.

Mike

Photolando asked "How do people get jobs like this?" One has to wonder. While we all got offered these types of opportunities when we were still hobbyists getting decent results, it's up to us to realize we aren't prepared for a job and say so. If we wish to pursue it, we'll learn how so we can take it on next time. Some will even go on to become pros, obtaining the additional skills that entails. The difference is the ability to judge the job and our skills accurately. That to me is how she's getting this - she's ignorant of the necessities and pride won't let her say "No thank you".

It also sounds like she has an inside track with the people throwing the gig and someone on a committee somewhere saw some shots she did of her own kids and pets and decided she has what it takes. Perhaps she did a better job than they themselves had done with a P&S. That's how it happens all too often now.

Among the many potential outcomes, two major branches present: 1) she disappoints and the group never tries again, deciding "professional" photography is a bogus waste of money; or 2) she disappoints and they realize that they did in fact deal with an unprepared amateur and that a real pro will be a better investment.

This is what's behind my suggestion that the OP take this woman under his tutelage. If the fees are already decided and too low, try to educate and change them. I see this as being about the bigger picture and saving the job for the future as well as about the reputation of "pros" even though she obviously is not one. This splashes on us by association. Saving it is good for the client and our profession, not just this woman.

Too many blown deals by people like this have been a portion of the loss of interest in hiring real pros. The client pays, let's say, the $4 mentioned earlier and is disappointed and hears about it from their members, much to their embarrassment. Next time it comes up, the committee cannot bring themselves to risk the abuse by seeking a real pro and paying the real fees necessary to have two lighted sets and four people with a genuine pro guiding them.

Too bad, too, because a father-daughter dance like this is real keeper for Dad and Daughter, who are the real losers, something the "oh she'll be fine" apologists never seem to get. For those who want to use that bull as their argument, go hang out at a forum in keeping with your obvious lack of knowledge.
--
jrbehm
http://www.jeffbehm.com

I see people like her every day . . .

Someone (perhaps their grandmother or the person at the Walmart photo counter) told them that their pics look so great from their little Kodak P&S camera and they should go pro!

Even if you tell her she needs strobes, she won't buy them, but will talk herself into the cheaper hot lights, like the Smith Victor's.

No matter how much you try to tell her the drawbacks of hotlights, they'll go with them anyway because they are cheaper!

They think $600 is an exceptionally high amount to budget for getting their 'business' going.

Then they almost have a coronary when they find out that their budget amount will barely get them the camera and a kit lens, not to mention all of the other stuff they will need.

However, when they find out that their budget will stretch further because they saw several websites online where prices are obviously too low, they will attempt to purchase there instead to save money, only to find out it was a scam or worse.

Or possibly they will find a reputable online dealer to purchase from to save a little money, but then guess who they will call with every single one of their questions since their online retailer won't help them out once they make the purchase and have their money.

They will come in or phone you every day (sometimes several times per day) for instruction on how to use said gear, possibly keeping you on the phone for hours and away from the work you should be doing!

However, they won't be satisfied with just you, but will seek out help from other sources (like other photogs or perhaps the guy stocking the shelves in the camera department at Best Buy, Walmart or Target), believe them over you, then they'll come in or call and accuse you of stearing them wrong just to make a sale of more expensive gear or giving them wrong information so that they will fail and that the guy stocking the shelves knows more about photography than you!

You may not see or hear from them for awhile . . . until the day of their first 'pro' shoot!

When you find yourself getting several phone calls screaming for help during the shoot while it is all falling apart on them!

I could go on for hours . . . but I won't.

Helping someone like this can be a good thing, but can often turn in to one of the biggest nightmares you've ever had.

Use your gut to decide if this is the right person you choose to place under your wing . . .

If you have bad vibes about this one . . . let her go!

You can tell when someone is real serious about getting into the photo business or if it might just be a passing fancy.

But, be very careful as sometimes the person who seems to be the most sincere turns out to be the devil (I've had a few customers like all of this I have described in this post).

Unfortunately, the photo business seems to look like a real easy and cheap business to get into, and right now everyone and their brother (or sister) thinks that photography is one of those 'anyone can do it' businesses and is an easy way to make some extra cash.

--
J. D.
Colorado

Remember . . . always keep your receipt, the box, and everything that came in it!

The harsh reality is that whether she can or cannot do the job, she is now your competitor and will be taking business away from you.

My guess is that the organising committee has hired a pro in the past but as you said, this time this amateur has an “inside track” to one or more committee members (there are ALWAYS at least some new committee members each year) and they thought they would save some money. This has happened to me on annual jobs on a number of occasions with different committees. They try someone else for whatever reason, usually money or connections or occasionally just an aggressive new photographer trying to take over the gig. If they try to give the job to an “amateur friend” to do (and it has happened on more than a couple of occasions) or even to a cheaper pro on some occasions then invariably they’re back the following year wanting the job done properly having being dragged over the coals by annoyed parents.

I think the committee will see the lousy job that’s been done and will quickly understand that they should have hired a pro in the first place; I don’t think they’ll see it as a risk to seek one next time, I think they’ll see it as a necessity. I do not think the OP should teach this amateur, why should he? Why should he give his presumably hard earned experience for free? The only way these committees will learn to hire pros is when the consequences of their decisions become apparent to them. If the pro helps this amateur enough for her to scrape through, no one will know except perhaps the amateur and even she will think she could have done it herself anyway; and she will get the job again next year. That doesn’t help the profession. Perhaps the OP should appeal directly to the committee and maybe they’ll see the problem, or maybe he could offer to help for a substantial portion of the fee.

I think it all comes down to a lack respect for the profession; lack of respect from the boards that oversee these events and lack of respect from the amateurs who see a quick way to make a buck without realising the problems there lack of experience creates for all involved and that unfortunately involves (in this case) the fathers and daughters.

--
'If you're good at something, never do it for free' The Joker.

http://www.ianbullphotography.com
Ian

The fact is that this woman is not our competitor; it's the whole group of people like her that is the competitor. She likely will not get more than one or two more jobs, so she is not a threat. BUT, take fifteen of her and that amounts to 30 to 45 lost jobs. It also amounts to clients coming to expect professional service at a ridiculously low price--or settling for cr@p.

As a profession, we have two basic protections. First of all, like the OP we have to allow this woman to crash and burn. Either she will learn not to do this kind of thing again and become more realistic, or she will simply quit.

Second, we need to educate the would-be pros so that they stop doing this work so lightly. I am a small business, but in the past two years have invested in excess of $6,000 in equipment. If I had gone with top-tier equipment, my costs would have been triple that. I need to earn the money to cover my costs and make a profit. If these wannabes are given the true story--long hours, obnoxious clients (at times), ridiculous expenses that come from a technology that evolves by the hour, and artistic self-doubt--maybe they will stop before they start. Maybe.

In the end, I suppose it will come down to marketing. If we can get to the client before people like this woman do, we can continue generating revenue.

Jay Bean said:

The harsh reality is that whether she can or cannot do the job, she
is now your competitor and will be taking business away from you.

Click to expand...

Robotnik12356 said:

I think you guys are being pretty harsh. Everyone was a noob once and
the lady sounds like she's got the sort of motivation needed to
succeed. She'll manage well enough most probably.

Click to expand...

When I joined the PPA - 21 years ago, they required proof that I was a "full time" photographer and I had to show...
1. My tax license
2. Photo of my camera room
3. Letterhead of my business
4. Photo of my building (outside)
5. Business card

Now that's harsh!

They didn't want members that were part time, weekend warriors or noobies who just had some nice equipment and wanted to pick the brains of professionals. We live in a world now where everybody looks for free advice from professionals so that maybe the market can become diluted one more time by another aspiring wannabe who thinks an automatic camera and a perky attitude is all you need to pull off a large complex shoot like the one the OP described. Why help someone that is so naive?
--
http://www.jhstudio.zenfolio.com

Robotnik12356 said:

She'll manage well enough most probably.

Click to expand...

Her chances of succeeding, are as good as you're chances, of teaching grammar.

And I'm not perfect.

--



http://www.knippixels.com

I would doubt that all fathers/daughters attending the dance would want to pay for a photo of themselves. So I doubt this pro-wannabe would have to shoot 200 couples probably more like 50 to 70 given the economy.

have her ask Ashton Kutchner, he makes it look so easy anyone can do it.

If she actually succeeds and does it cheap. you will have created a new price target to meet and competitor to beat.
--
hey really . . . I'm only trying to help

RedFox88 said:

I would doubt that all fathers/daughters attending the dance would
want to pay for a photo of themselves. So I doubt this pro-wannabe
would have to shoot 200 couples probably more like 50 to 70 given the
economy.

Click to expand...

Actually, a lot of these types of dances, and even proms and homecomings now, have the price of the photo included in the price of the ticket so everyone who wants one will get at least 1 5x7. If they don't get the picture taken, and some won't, the photographer still gets all the cut from the ticket sales. But most do get their photo taken so you have to be prepared for the worst case. Even if it wasn't included, you still have to be prepared for the worst case. That's what pros do. They are prepared.

I have a feeling this mom doesn't even have a back up camera. Not sure but I'm guessing.

Mike

Robotnik12356 said:

I think you guys are being pretty harsh. Everyone was a noob once and
the lady sounds like she's got the sort of motivation needed to
succeed. She'll manage well enough most probably.

Click to expand...

Well, there is harsh and then their is reality. Now seeing that I have done countless prom and homecomings and even this same kind of dance in the past, I know what is involved and just know that she is not prepared to take on this kind of job.

I have no problem with any one wanting to come into this business. Heck, I know how cook a great meal. It certainly doesn't not mean I am ready to open up a restaurant and serve 100's of people a day. At the least I would think I would first go work for someone, learn how to do that sort of thing AND THEN go out on my own.

I realize we "just take pictures" ("sigh") but there is more to it than that. At the least. she will need; someone to take names so she knows who she is shooting. She will need a min. of two lights and modifiers. She will need a backup camera in case hers goes out. She will need to know how to pose them in a nice way and need someone to pose for her because it would take too much time for her to pose and shoot. And she will have to shoot non stop and shoot 200 couples in 3 hours. There is more but that's just the beginning.

I have done this kind of thing countless times (proms, homecomings) and know that doing 200 couples in 3 hours will take a lot more than she realizes.

The thing is, if you want to make it in this business, it's not really a good thing to start off doing something you are not prepared to do, though I see it all the time. Chances are her clients will not be pleased and not use her again. Where as if you learn how to do it right, they love you and then you have them for references.

Mike

I'll try to answer some questions.

This woman is on the dance party committee at the school. At a meeting, photographs were mentioned. She jumped up and said, "I can do it!". The committee said "GREAT!" and moved on. That's how she got the job.

No she doesn't have a second camera.

I believe every family will want photos. It is a special occasion. They are dressed up. The economy should not play a part, as it is one of the wealthiest communities in the northeast.

She is gung-ho and wants to do it all herself. I am not hoping for her to fail. I am just disappointed at her attitude. She thinks she knows it all. She has an answer for every consideration I bring up.

I'm sorry this thread has to drag on for another six weeks. "D-Day" is May 1, so I won't hear what happened until May 2 or 3.

I really hate the way this is going to go for the dads/daughters. When my wife and I first stared dating, she already had an 11 year old daughter. The year prior to when we met, she was supposed to have someone to go with the girl, but the guy bailed, so mom was going to take her. Instead, they saw all the dads going in, broke out bawling, and went home.

Fast forward one year. She and I have been dating all of three weeks, but we knew we were clicking. Her brother had offered to take her to the dance that year. But, he also bailed, with one day's notice.

So, she trusted me, who she had just begun to get to know, with her most prized possession, and we went to the father daughter dance. I didn't take a camera, we just went, and had a great time. Luckily, there was a shooter there.

Fast forward seven more years. Next month, I will be shooting (for work) as that same girl, who I now proudly call my daughter, graduates high school.

How much do you think that father daughter photo is worth to us?

Jim Dean

dscf said:

I'll try to answer some questions.

This woman is on the dance party committee at the school. At a
meeting, photographs were mentioned. She jumped up and said, "I can
do it!". The committee said "GREAT!" and moved on. That's how she got
the job.

No she doesn't have a second camera.

I believe every family will want photos. It is a special occasion.
They are dressed up. The economy should not play a part, as it is one
of the wealthiest communities in the northeast.

She is gung-ho and wants to do it all herself. I am not hoping for
her to fail. I am just disappointed at her attitude. She thinks she
knows it all. She has an answer for every consideration I bring up.

I'm sorry this thread has to drag on for another six weeks. "D-Day"
is May 1, so I won't hear what happened until May 2 or 3.

Click to expand...

--
Jim Dean

You could submit a counter proposal to her and the committee detailing how you would go about covering the event, shooting, processing, and delivering photos. Then they can decide whether to move forward with her by herself or whether to reconsider and have it professionally done. If they stick with her then at least you tried.

dscf said:

I am a pro school photographer. A mom "with a good digital camera"
spoke to me at a school I recently photographed. She said she would
like to take pro portraits.

She emailed me a few days ago. She took on a job in May -- 200
families at a "Dad & Daughter Dance". She asked me what kind of
lights she'd need, and any other tips.

I replied that there is much more to a pro job than a good camera. I
asked, "Could you physically handle the job of photographing a few
hundred families in the time allowed?"

Here's her reply:

"Truly the one part I think I'm most confident with is the
"physically handling the job" part. I'm good on the fly. (Ex-sales
gal, taken loads of families with small kids portraits, amateur
actress not afraid to make weird faces and noises I think it
could be 150 - 200 attendees. I know, it's big and daunting - but
I'm totally fired up. I've taken some nice outdoor beach family
portraits."

I tried to explain that photographing a family on the beach or a
single kid's shot is not the same as rapid assembly-line photography
at a dance.

I recommended some lighting kits that might be of use. She has never
shot with pro lights. I guess she'll learn everything on the job. If
it takes her two minutes per family, (which I doubt she could handle)
that's almost seven hours of nonstop work. The dance is only three
hours long.

Oh, she also has no idea what to do with the image files after she
shoots them, has no photo background, and no posing bench.

But.....she has a good digital camera. So she's a pro.

Click to expand...

Or what might want to do is print out a lot of the replies you see here from people like myself and others who have done this sort of thing or from those know she just isn't capable of doing a decent job and show them to the committee. That way it's not just you saying whether or not she can do the job. You'll have references that back up your claim.

Or if you do have another committee meeting, I would, in front of the committee, ask her about all the points we have brought up here so others can hear what she says and then obviously know they really should consider someone with a little more experience.

But I would also add that it's not that she a good photographer. She may take great shots with her camera but there is more to this than she realizes.

Mike

--
My daughters (twins) prom dance could not get a pro, so they pursuaded me.

With 30+ serious amateur years my only pro work has been infrequent product photography for my company and some landscape & postcard sales.

I did the maths & planning, found 'the' spot to set up ahead of time, set up my strobes & tripod, tv display etc. Brought my own assistant! Organised the paper work etc.

Of the 150+ people about 40 couples & small groups voluntered to stand on the cross for a photo, even at reasonable prices. Most graduating students at a party have less than $2.00 in their pocket, & "their parents already took a photo".

I had a pro shop print the pics. My daughters delivered the orders & collected money.

My assistant & I made almost minimum wage (each!) if you ignore planning time, travel time & costs, capital costs, pickup & drop off time!

The glimpses of my daughters enjoying themselves....priceless.

They asked me to do the same for the next year....HA HA HA that was really funny!

newsshooterjim said:

I really hate the way this is going to go for the dads/daughters.

Click to expand...

Hear! Hear!

Your story really hit a nerve, Jim. In addition to having my own beloved daughter, I was fortunate enough to also gain a brace of daughters through my fiance. Looking back, even the tough times are moments to remember. These photos COULD be treasures for those who elect to take advantage of the opportunity. Hey, I have 12-15 year old finger paintings on my fridge. A photo if taken, would be there or framed on a desk.

It would be best if this woman could see her way clear (or be enticed) to ask for help from the OP, and he be gracious enough to assist. I know that's not the tough minded business set I often take, but the client is best served in this manner and the OP stands to gain in the long run. Perhaps if the OP could show HER the concerns of this forum.... even if just by cut and paste into an email or memo.
--
jrbehm
http://www.jeffbehm.com