acronym need- what is it to be?

John Carson said:

EVIL is a great name, but too provocative for a corporation to embrace.

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Whilst that was my thought coming into this thread- I am no longer certain that is barrier could not be overcome. The name is out there. Perhaps a more subtle sanitisation rather than a significant change?

John Carson said:

ILEV just re-arranges EVIL and is appropriately descriptive. Strictly
speaking it doesn't describe cameras with just an LCD and no
viewfinder, but it is near enough since an LCD is a viewfinder of
sorts.

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The term 'viewfinder' has become something you put your eye to, but it could be stretched to cover and LCD, particularly if this is the only 'viewfinder' or way of seeing what the view to be captured available.

John Carson said:

LVIL (live view interchangeable lens, pronounced "elvil") is another
possibility, though it could also be used to describe recent DSLRs.

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I like this best of your suggestions. The point about DSLRs is true- these are not primarliy 'live view', are they? Or the optical viewfinder also confusing with a 'live view' anyway?

Perhaps it could be pronounced 'Levil'? Or is LEVIL another choice' Live Electronic Viewfinder Interchanger Lens?

John Carson said:

MIL (mirrorless interchangeable lens) is another option.

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Having an acronym with a word to suggest what the camera is NOT feels like being negative. Feels like describing what the product is not, rather than what it is.

John Carson said:

--
john carson

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It's a big lens with a digital appendix thus I would use

Digital Straight Through Lens (DSTL) cameras.

ccs_hello

GregGory said:

gweedo said:

But is it really a hybrid? A camera with features that are DSLR like
as well as P&S like?

Isn't Hybrid the new word of the decade, as much as it makes me want
to puke.... Hybrid is a clear name with meaning, while being general
enough.

So, how about if we call this class of cameras hybrids?

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I don't disagree, but I think a lot of people refer to hybrid cameras
as a subgroup with (good) DSC and video capabilities.

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I don't like hybrid. First, as GreGory points out, it's vague since it's used to describe other things (still/video cams for instance). But my bigger objection is that if anything, a DSLR is a hybrid (digital imaging with film body), whereas the µ4/3 system is a more "pure" digital camera.

My preferred acronym is ILC = Interchangeable Lens Compact. I don't think the kind of viewfinder is really the distinguishing feature of the G1 (though it certainly has been a point of contention), and I think EVFs (whether eye-level or the rear LCD) are going to gradually supplant optical VFs in most consumer and even professional cameras in years to come. Where the G1 really sets itself apart to me is the size relative to other interchangeable-lens systems, and it's actually bigger than it has to be.

(As an aside, I'd like to see someone introduce an "ILC" system based on an even smaller sensor, maybe a 2/3". Yes, the low-light performance would suffer relative to its bigger cousins, but as we've seen with the Panasonic LX3, it's possible for a small-sensor camera to produce respectable low-light photos. And the small sensor would allow the manufacturer to build much better lenses that would fit the form factor -- µ4/3 suffers because while the zoom lenses are somewhat smaller than those for other systems, they're not that much smaller, and they're slow. Faster lenses would simply be too big to handle well on the small body of the G1 (or its hypothetical µ4/3 kin). )
--
-Jay

http://flickr.com/photos/48504267@N00/

SLE for the win.

System Lens, Electronic.

It's catchy, close enough and relevant enough to SLR, everyone knows what an E stands for these days, and let's face it the E is really the biggest difference between an SLR (or DSLR) and the new genre.

You could also drop the D prefix as the E does the job just as well (unless someone comes up with an electronic viewfinder for a film SLR I suppose - in which case they can find their own damn acronym).

So the progression is from SLR to DSLR then SLE. Seems quite reasonable to me.

Change the 'single' to 'system' and hopefully everyone wins. We get a TLA that rolls off the tongue just as well as SLR did, and even most photographers who've never heard of an SLE could probably figure out what one is just from its acronym (sorry, initialism).

--

Brewer said:

SLE for the win.

System Lens, Electronic.

It's catchy, close enough and relevant enough to SLR, everyone knows
what an E stands for these days, and let's face it the E is really
the biggest difference between an SLR (or DSLR) and the new genre.

You could also drop the D prefix as the E does the job just as well
(unless someone comes up with an electronic viewfinder for a film SLR
I suppose - in which case they can find their own damn acronym).

So the progression is from SLR to DSLR then SLE. Seems quite
reasonable to me.

Change the 'single' to 'system' and hopefully everyone wins. We get a
TLA that rolls off the tongue just as well as SLR did, and even most
photographers who've never heard of an SLE could probably figure out
what one is just from its acronym (sorry, initialism).

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Sorry, I don't get it. What's a system lens? I mean, I know what you're trying to get across here, but I don't think it really makes sense. It's not a system lens, it's a system camera (not that I particularly care for the term). Also, I find the "..., Electronic" construction cumbersome, too.
--
-Jay

http://flickr.com/photos/48504267@N00/

Jay Gloab said:

It's not a system lens, it's a system camera (not that I
particularly care for the term). Also, I find the "..., Electronic"
construction cumbersome, too.

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Wow, I think you're really splitting hairs here, but I'll bite.

'System' has a number of meanings, among which is "a set of objects or phenomena grouped together for classification or analysis". In the case of the G1 / GH1, the 'system' in question is Micro Four-Thirds. Other manufacturers have (or will presumably develop) their own lens systems. Besides, for many people, 'system' is simply more appropriate than than the 'single' which is being replaced.

The real issue here is when an SLR drops its R and becomes E instead.

If the comma bothers you, omit it. Taken in absolute isolation, 'Single Lens Reflex' makes no sense either. You would have to suffix it with 'camera' to be anything like correct, and even then the really pedantic would point out that the 'reflex' applies only to the viewfinder, and unless the recorded image is reflected it is certainly not a 'reflex camera'.

'System Lens Electronic Camera' is therefore just as correct as (if not more than) 'Single Lens Reflex Camera', and IMO the abbreviation to SLE works just as well as SLR did for this application.

--

Lots of great ideas here, so I decided to think inside the box.

Both Panasonic and Samsung have great explanations, explaining the differences between a dSLR and this new offspring.

The one defining difference that I see is the Flange Back distance. This is the one difference that I think encompasses this new offspring whether or not they have evf or even a fixed lens. This is what allows the use of the great legacy lenses and allows the reduced size.

I propose that it be called a "Reduced Flange Back" camera or just RFB for short.

This ties the new offspring into the lineage of its proud slr parents, something we can all share.

--
Salutations,

Doug Greer

Brewer said:

Change the 'single' to 'system' and hopefully everyone wins.

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Nice one, it certainly removes one perceived obstacle.

--
John Bean [GMT]

Revised

Digital Straight Through Interchangable Lens (DSTIL) cameras.

ccs_hello

Brewer said:

Jay Gloab said:

It's not a system lens, it's a system camera (not that I
particularly care for the term). Also, I find the "..., Electronic"
construction cumbersome, too.

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Wow, I think you're really splitting hairs here, but I'll bite.

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Yeah, "splitting hairs" is probably a fair assessment.

Brewer said:

'System' has a number of meanings, among which is "a set of objects
or phenomena grouped together for classification or analysis". In the
case of the G1 / GH1, the 'system' in question is Micro Four-Thirds.
Other manufacturers have (or will presumably develop) their own lens
systems. Besides, for many people, 'system' is simply more
appropriate than than the 'single' which is being replaced.

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I just find the word "system" vague in this context. It has lots of definitions. I prefer "interchangeable" for this reason.

Brewer said:

The real issue here is when an SLR drops its R and becomes E instead.

If the comma bothers you, omit it. Taken in absolute isolation,
'Single Lens Reflex' makes no sense either. You would have to suffix
it with 'camera' to be anything like correct, and even then the
really pedantic would point out that the 'reflex' applies only to the
viewfinder, and unless the recorded image is reflected it is
certainly not a 'reflex camera'.

'System Lens Electronic Camera' is therefore just as correct as (if
not more than) 'Single Lens Reflex Camera', and IMO the abbreviation
to SLE works just as well as SLR did for this application.

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Good points. You're quite right that SLR only makes grammatical sense if followed by "camera" but it's used as a standalone term so much that I didn't even think of it. If there's an implied "camera" after SLE I agree it makes more sense.
--
-Jay

http://flickr.com/photos/48504267@N00/

I like EVIL better, more descriptive, but SLE is more likely to be acceptable to manufacturers.... though that kinda assumes they're even going to be paying attention to what we call it.

They tend to want to have terms they can own and make them into brands.

Sensor System Cam. Panasonic will take it. It applies to others but they are already tied to the past so they can't change to emphasize what is the core component and focus on the new future. They'll lock themselves out and look more dated. Sensor System Camera

I think DIL would be a good name, short for Digital Interchangeable Lens. It would not matter if they had an EVF or not.

dSLR's all have an optical viewfinder "OIL" I expect my next camera will be a "dilly" - see Websters dictionary.

It looks like there is some disagreement about the actual camera we are describing. I think we need to agree on what the new classification covers, with mind to future developments.

I certainly don't think we're trying to assist Panasonic to come up with something proprietary purely for the G1. Surely we're looking for a term that we, as photographers, can use when discussing broad camera types?

To my mind, the category is about having an interchangeable lens system, and providing a true TTL preview electronically instead of via optics & flappy mirrors. It is not about 'compact', or 'reduced flange back', or video, or anything else.

So would an existing DSLR system that simply replaced its mirror box with an EVF fit the new classification? I think it would have to. What about a future LX3 with interchangeable lenses? Again, why not? I don't think you can discriminate purely on size, the pros and cons of different sensor and body combinations are for photographers to debate. What about an existing DSLR with a live view LCD? Grey territory. Presumably the optical VF is still the primary means of composition - I'd suggest that these are perhaps the hybrids.

What's more, I think the EVF part of the distinction is important now, but I can see a point in the future where ALL 'interchangeable lens' cameras will have an EVF. It is the way technology goes. Whenever moving parts can be replaced by electronics it becomes cheaper, lighter, more flexible and more reliable. It opens up so many possibilities in terns of camera aesthetics, data display, low light gain-up, focus magnification etc that it's difficult to see flapping optics hanging in for more than a couple more generations.

In a way then, what we come up with now will, at some point simply become a distinction between those cameras with fixed lenses, and those with swappable ones - so certainly not a niche.

I still like SLE, it's a respectful tip-of-the-hat to its ancestor the SLR, but it isn't encumbered with legacy acronyms that are already heading for obsolescence. 'System Lens Electronic' camera may have an element of 'backronym' but where's the harm in that?

--

Brewer said:

To my mind, the category is about having an interchangeable lens
system, and providing a true TTL preview electronically instead of
via optics & flappy mirrors. It is not about 'compact', or 'reduced
flange back', or video, or anything else.

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I'm coming around to this way of thinking.

Brewer said:

So would an existing DSLR system that simply replaced its mirror box
with an EVF fit the new classification? I think it would have to.
What about a future LX3 with interchangeable lenses? Again, why not?
I don't think you can discriminate purely on size, the pros and cons
of different sensor and body combinations are for photographers to
debate. What about an existing DSLR with a live view LCD? Grey
territory. Presumably the optical VF is still the primary means of
composition - I'd suggest that these are perhaps the hybrids.

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Definitely with you here.

Brewer said:

What's more, I think the EVF part of the distinction is important
now, but I can see a point in the future where ALL 'interchangeable
lens' cameras will have an EVF. It is the way technology goes.
Whenever moving parts can be replaced by electronics it becomes
cheaper, lighter, more flexible and more reliable. It opens up so
many possibilities in terns of camera aesthetics, data display, low
light gain-up, focus magnification etc that it's difficult to see
flapping optics hanging in for more than a couple more generations.

Click to expand...

Again, I'm with you 100% here. I think this gets to the core of what distinguishes the µ4/3 system (and, I suppose, Samsung's recently announced NX system) -- it abandons design parameters that are holdovers from film days and builds a purely digital photography system from the ground up. This permits more compact design, but you're right -- compactness isn't intrinsic, it's just one of the possibilities.

Brewer said:

I still like SLE, it's a respectful tip-of-the-hat to its ancestor
the SLR, but it isn't encumbered with legacy acronyms that are
already heading for obsolescence. 'System Lens Electronic' camera may
have an element of 'backronym' but where's the harm in that?

Click to expand...

I'm still not sure about SLE, because I forsee it being difficult to explain to consumers (not that SLR isn't, I suppose...). I don't have a better suggestion at the moment, though.
--
-Jay

http://flickr.com/photos/48504267@N00/

System Camera Interchangeable lens

(Pronounced like "skill")

I'd either ask for the camera directly or simply explain my needs.

iano said:

In your view is any sanitisation going to make the term acceptable to
show as a category of products?

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Nope.

iano said:

OK, so it is what i had thought. But I must be being obtuse as i
don't see why the same term should apply to a range finder camera
with an optical view finder?

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I can't help here. I only have a vague idea what a range finder camera is.

--
john carson

iano said:

John Carson said:

ILEV just re-arranges EVIL and is appropriately descriptive. Strictly
speaking it doesn't describe cameras with just an LCD and no
viewfinder, but it is near enough since an LCD is a viewfinder of
sorts.

Click to expand...

The term 'viewfinder' has become something you put your eye to, but
it could be stretched to cover and LCD, particularly if this is the
only 'viewfinder' or way of seeing what the view to be captured
available.

Click to expand...

You could always interpret V as view rather than viewfinder. Thus ILEV is Interchangeable Lens Electronic View.

iano said:

iano said:

LVIL (live view interchangeable lens, pronounced "elvil") is another
possibility, though it could also be used to describe recent DSLRs.

Click to expand...

I like this best of your suggestions. The point about DSLRs is true-
these are not primarliy 'live view', are they? Or the optical
viewfinder also confusing with a 'live view' anyway?

Perhaps it could be pronounced 'Levil'? Or is LEVIL another choice'
Live Electronic Viewfinder Interchanger Lens?

Click to expand...

I think LEVIL is another choice, but Live Electronic Viewfinder has some redundancy.

iano said:

iano said:

MIL (mirrorless interchangeable lens) is another option.

Click to expand...

Having an acronym with a word to suggest what the camera is NOT feels
like being negative. Feels like describing what the product is not,
rather than what it is.

Click to expand...

Yes, but we have cordless phones, wireless keyboards, rimless glasses and topless swimsuits.

--
john carson

Convenient
Auto
Manual
Electronic
Reproduction
Appliance

Can I patent that acronym?

Regards........... Guy