New Pro in town!

I am a pro school photographer. A mom "with a good digital camera" spoke to me at a school I recently photographed. She said she would like to take pro portraits.

She emailed me a few days ago. She took on a job in May -- 200 families at a "Dad & Daughter Dance". She asked me what kind of lights she'd need, and any other tips.

I replied that there is much more to a pro job than a good camera. I asked, "Could you physically handle the job of photographing a few hundred families in the time allowed?"

Here's her reply:

"Truly the one part I think I'm most confident with is the "physically handling the job" part. I'm good on the fly. (Ex-sales gal, taken loads of families with small kids portraits, amateur actress not afraid to make weird faces and noises I think it could be 150 - 200 attendees. I know, it's big and daunting - but I'm totally fired up. I've taken some nice outdoor beach family portraits."

I tried to explain that photographing a family on the beach or a single kid's shot is not the same as rapid assembly-line photography at a dance.

I recommended some lighting kits that might be of use. She has never shot with pro lights. I guess she'll learn everything on the job. If it takes her two minutes per family, (which I doubt she could handle) that's almost seven hours of nonstop work. The dance is only three hours long.

Oh, she also has no idea what to do with the image files after she shoots them, has no photo background, and no posing bench.

But.....she has a good digital camera. So she's a pro.

Just curious, how much time would you need to shoot that number of people?

You have to let us know how her job went. Not that we enjoy watching people fail but I don't think there is anything one can do to prevent this train wreck.

It would be interesting to hear from her after the job. I'm sure we would all gain some insights from her account.
--
gmorioka
moriokaphoto.com

OMG - 200 FAMLIES in a 3 hour dance?

When I shoot assembly-line "preschoolers" (3 - 5 year old kids) I've averaged about 5 min, however, I take time to work with the kids , especially the special needs kids and always manage to capture some good looks.

When I shoot senior seniors (60-100 year olds), it's still often 5 min per individual, however, couples and groups are longer (power scooters and walkers take time)

Assembling group shots for weddings, I quote the advice from a seminar when I tell the bride... minimum 5 min per group; if YOU have someone gathering the people. This keeps the number of group shots sensible between ceremony and reception.

With streamlined workflow of 2 min per - that's still only 30 per hour.

To the origional poster... the best you can do for your aquaintance is help her do the math and see the numbers. Once she sees the numbers, perhaps she'll offer to let you help (or take the lead and she assist), and you can figure how to have multiple setups so the 200 families can be handled within the 3 hour window. Make it a win-win (money for you, learning for her), pics for the families.

GOOD LUCK!!@!!

200 attendees, most in pairs, I'd set up a formal shot location just inside, and catch them right as the entered. "Hi, step over here please". Click, click and send them on their way.

Then once it seems everyone is inside, move into candid mode, and shoot the evening.

Of course, I'd bring an assistant to corral the people at the entrance, and would have things like a light kit I knew how to use, a backdrop, and cards with a predefined web location where they can go view/buy the photos.

The alternative would be to be set up, and make sure the people taking/selling tickets were making guests aware of your presence and encouraging them to stop by during the event. This would likely require a second shooter if they wanted candids as well, since the booth would need to be manned all the time.

Not sure now "involved" in this one I'd get. She could use you to death.
--
Jim Dean

No matter how confident she is or how good she is on the fly, 200 Dads & Daughters in 3 hours requires several people and meticulous planning. You've got 70 seconds per family to do everything and that's without any hiccups or breaks. Here's just a few quick thoughts:

a) Gotta have the equipment including lighting, batteries, power, and memory cards all lined up to last the duration

b) Gotta have a herder, someone that gets the families in line without letting the line get too long and wasting their time waiting, and also makes sure the line never gets empty.

c) Gotta have a pusher, the person at the head of the line that clears the previous family off the set and gets the next one into position and posed, all in a matter of about 30 seconds.

d) Gotta have a shooter of course, who is going to have about 30 seconds to take 3 shots

dscf said:

I am a pro school photographer. A mom "with a good digital camera"
spoke to me at a school I recently photographed. She said she would
like to take pro portraits.

She emailed me a few days ago. She took on a job in May -- 200
families at a "Dad & Daughter Dance". She asked me what kind of
lights she'd need, and any other tips.

I replied that there is much more to a pro job than a good camera. I
asked, "Could you physically handle the job of photographing a few
hundred families in the time allowed?"

Here's her reply:

"Truly the one part I think I'm most confident with is the
"physically handling the job" part. I'm good on the fly. (Ex-sales
gal, taken loads of families with small kids portraits, amateur
actress not afraid to make weird faces and noises I think it
could be 150 - 200 attendees. I know, it's big and daunting - but
I'm totally fired up. I've taken some nice outdoor beach family
portraits."

I tried to explain that photographing a family on the beach or a
single kid's shot is not the same as rapid assembly-line photography
at a dance.

I recommended some lighting kits that might be of use. She has never
shot with pro lights. I guess she'll learn everything on the job. If
it takes her two minutes per family, (which I doubt she could handle)
that's almost seven hours of nonstop work. The dance is only three
hours long.

Oh, she also has no idea what to do with the image files after she
shoots them, has no photo background, and no posing bench.

But.....she has a good digital camera. So she's a pro.

Click to expand...

this is the only way to learn and sometime the most effective way for a client to learn that they need to take jobs like this seriously and to hire an experienced pro. Of course she may end up doing fine, some people do end up rising to the challenge, in which case she will still realise how much work it is and take a more serious attitude to pro photography and learn the trade, which ends up benefiting everyone of us.
--
'If you're good at something, never do it for free' The Joker.

http://www.ianbullphotography.com
Ian

My experience in these situations suggests that she'll get much less than the 200-300 attendees into her booth. Unless the photos are part of the ticket price, she'll be lucky to get half the attendees. This would amount to 100 or so shots, which is not exactly easy but still doable. However, if the event price includes photos as part of admission, it's a tougher slog. She still won't have to shoot everyone (there's a certain percentage of the population who hate cameras of any sort), but I wouldn't have taken on this job. Delivering the prints is a nightmare, unless she can print on the spot.

Not me, man.

professorgb said:

My experience in these situations suggests that she'll get much less
than the 200-300 attendees into her booth. Unless the photos are
part of the ticket price, she'll be lucky to get half the attendees.
This would amount to 100 or so shots, which is not exactly easy but
still doable. However, if the event price includes photos as part of
admission, it's a tougher slog. She still won't have to shoot
everyone (there's a certain percentage of the population who hate
cameras of any sort), but I wouldn't have taken on this job.
Delivering the prints is a nightmare, unless she can print on the
spot.

Not me, man.

Click to expand...

In most cases I would agree that there would be a great deal less than the total number of attendees interested in photos but considering that it’s father/daughter dance I think that the numbers would be greater than normal. These events tend to generate a lot more interest in photos; depending on the cost of course.
--
'If you're good at something, never do it for free' The Joker.

http://www.ianbullphotography.com
Ian

My observation of these types of things is that they expect the photographer to shoot every couple (e.g., father/daughter). If anyone gets missed it's always the photographer's fault.

Ianp said:

professorgb said:

My experience in these situations suggests that she'll get much less
than the 200-300 attendees into her booth. Unless the photos are
part of the ticket price, she'll be lucky to get half the attendees.
This would amount to 100 or so shots, which is not exactly easy but
still doable. However, if the event price includes photos as part of
admission, it's a tougher slog. She still won't have to shoot
everyone (there's a certain percentage of the population who hate
cameras of any sort), but I wouldn't have taken on this job.
Delivering the prints is a nightmare, unless she can print on the
spot.

Not me, man.

Click to expand...

In most cases I would agree that there would be a great deal less
than the total number of attendees interested in photos but
considering that it’s father/daughter dance I think that the numbers
would be greater than normal. These events tend to generate a lot
more interest in photos; depending on the cost of course.
--
'If you're good at something, never do it for free' The Joker.

http://www.ianbullphotography.com
Ian

Click to expand...

I think with that number of attendees I would have one of their volunteers ...line up the pairs 5 or 10 rows deep. They can prep themselves while they wait, and come into the shooting area and stand at the "X" as soon as the prior group leave. 2 flashes or just 1 with someone to hold a reflector. I'd go with no backdrop other than the 'dance' in the background which would be much darker due to flash lighting the subjects. Objective ..1 dad and daugher per minute ...as playful as they wish to be ..eg. daughter on back of Dad, a dance pose ..whatever. 2 frames per dad&daughter. Deal is for 1 each. Extra $ for second one if they want it.

They would have to understand the time pressure and respond accordingly. That's still tight but 300 attendees represents 150 shots if they are in pairs and less than that if some are in 3's or 4's ...so one could do it in 180 minutes ...with a system. Payment up front. One payment based on the job and covering post processing time and whatever prints they wanted as standard. Extras could be ordered afterward and paid up front then.

Challenging ...but not an impossibility. I shot almost 100 pee wee hockey players in just over an hour on 35mm years ago (manually focused, w/Vivitar 285 flash, so I know it can be done. There is just no time to change things shot to shot.

It is very dependent on one's organizational skills and the cooperation of the event organizers and subjects. Technicallly its no harder than shooting a marathon ...you're just catching them as they go by and they can't expect award winning portrature at that speed, but I'm sure with the 'event' in the background, the photos would serve their purpose.

watchoutfors? I will never forget losing the name and number sheets for those hockey players and having to work with 5 coaches to figure out who was who afterward. Moral ...get that first and keep a copy. Then on the original have the pair just shot write down the frame numbers beside their own names while the next pair is posing up.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjlad/sets/

carl english said:

Just curious, how much time would you need to shoot that number of
people?

Click to expand...

I've shot plenty of these events. I'd bring another seasoned pro with me and finish the whole job in about 90 minutes.

The point here is that a snapshot shooter buys a Nikon D40, gets some nice outdoor flash portraits with the camera set on "Program", and immediately thinks she can handle any pro job that comes along.

Event date is May 1 so I won't have the results until then. Aside from offering her a bit of advice, I will not get involved.

dscf said:

Event date is May 1 so I won't have the results until then. Aside
from offering her a bit of advice, I will not get involved.

Click to expand...

Yep, you have a fine balancing beam to walk here. Not seeming to be indifferent to her requests for advice on the one hand, and not wanting to look like you set her up, on the other, by not telling her the depth of her folly. Have you considered suggesting she's in over her head, and demonstrating how, rather than allow her to fail? Perhaps you'd consult and act as the coordinator, get paid for it out of the job, assist on the job and teach her? It might be the more honorable way to allow her to see how unprepared she is.

My friend who owns a high end salon & spa in a nearby city once said that salon owners are constantly training their own next new competitor. I realized we photographers are, too. You could be her guru.

Then again I just got done watching "Kung Fu Panda"... I could be wrong...

--
jrbehm
http://www.jeffbehm.com

Wow what a mess that will be.

It is amazing how everyone with a camera now days is a pro up till the time they get paid and the customer wants their money back.

I would love to see her with some new studio lights shooting the camera in P and wondering why nothing works right.

Set the lights on full power set the camera to P and blast away
Lol--Lol--Lol

Somebody go make a video of this. we need a good laugh.

The camera size matters. Skill is underestimated.

--
Roentarre, Melbourne, Australia
http://www.roentarre.com/Blog.aspx?id=4
http://www.themesoftime.com/Category.aspx
http://www.50mmphotos.com
http://www.olympus150mmf2.com
http://www.facadephotos.com
http://www.pentaxsalon.com

Ahh, thanks Canon, Nikon, Sony, Sigma, Fuji, Olympus for telling everyone about the professional results attained simply by buying the right gear.

One of my students really, really asked me this. "P" is professional mode, right? That's why everything I shoot there looks so good." Class was challenging for her - she'd enrolled in intermediate photography and hadn't yet read the manual for her 2 year old Canon. Set it to "Professional" and forget it....

I restate my earlier comment. Take this woman under your wing, scare her straight, coordinate the shoot, make it work and take 50% of the profit or a fee that suits you. Don't teach her so much as direct her, because if your name gets muddied through your current association, you lose, too. Afterward, if you're both amenable consider whether she's worth making an assistant. She may be clueless, but she's out there hustling; not a bad thing these days
--
jrbehm
http://www.jeffbehm.com

Jeff Behm said:

Take this woman under your wing, scare
her straight, coordinate the shoot, make it work and take 50% of the
profit or a fee that suits you. Don't teach her so much as direct
her, because if your name gets muddied through your current
association, you lose, too. Afterward, if you're both amenable
consider whether she's worth making an assistant. She may be
clueless, but she's out there hustling; not a bad thing these days

Click to expand...

Problem with this is that she probably didn't quote a high enough price to actually make any money off of this shoot, so there may not be much to split.

--
J. D.
Colorado



Remember . . . always keep your receipt, the box, and everything that came in it!

MusicDoctorDJ said:

Problem with this is that she probably didn't quote a high enough
price to actually make any money off of this shoot, so there may not
be much to split.

Click to expand...

Yep, that's why I have that "fee that suits you" phrase in there. This deal has potential for splashing back on our OP in ways that may be bad for his rep. I figured to at least give him the encouragement to look at it from that perspective.

--
jrbehm
http://www.jeffbehm.com

Hopefully, she has a really good camera. Isn't that all it takes?

Rob
--
Life is a series of images. Go capture some memories...

I think you guys are being pretty harsh. Everyone was a noob once and the lady sounds like she's got the sort of motivation needed to succeed. She'll manage well enough most probably.