I am not a troll I love Leica's Culture but

So I am a Pro Nikon user, but have owned a number of the Leica models, never a film one though, only ever aspired to film ones when i was younger.

I purchased a Digilux 1 and 2 , got rid of both for being too limiting and the difference between those and a Nikon D200 was quite large in quality.

Purchased the DLUX2 and very quickly found the noise to be horrendous compared to my P&S coolpix S200, i loved the feel and the 16:9 but the images from the JPG were OK, RAW needed work.

I had an Epson Rangefinder RD1s and liked it for about 100 clicks, found the lenses limiting, so I stayed clear of the M8 for a while.

Am I just too torn up in the lazy world of autofocus, I can see the differences between the Leica lenses of old and the images, I can even see the difference between the resolution of a R9 +DMR versus a Canon 1DS III when tested on the forum but we are talking a lot of money differences in lens collections and reach.

So now I was impressed by a colleague of mine's Panny I think its the latest LX3 or LX4 ?? And so I watch again for the Leica in this space, the romance, the age the feel the little Red Dot, im hooked but the actual output always lets me down.?

By day I am a Wedding photographer Pro, so Nikon is my work kit. I wanted to slow down and get away from work kit while I am in a social mood.

Is it me, am I too demanding of a carry around that is not work kit ?

Am I too used to getting a D3 Nikon and the quality blowing me away ?

YOUR thoughts at a debate level please, not flames as I said I have owned many Leica's and still want to buy an R9 the feel of it is amazing but by sensible head keeps stopping me, and the film stuff is such a phaff these days.

The S series intrigues, only because of the price. I considered the M8 but oh my the cost and looking at the lenses and the discretion these days of the so called street photographer, I can be more discrete with a compact like G10 Canon than most cameras, so Leica fans and users, why do I clamber for one and feel let down ?.

Help me see the new Leica in a different light, does it perform at Max zoom, been reading about putting a range finder viewer on it that renders it a 24mm camera. I dont want to fight with technology I just want to use it.

I think John Stovall is a good candidate to answer this post.

John?

--

• markE

http://www.pbase.com/marke

'Good street/wildlife photography is a controlled accident,
a vision of preparation and surrender materialized.'

Antony Blake said:

So I am a Pro Nikon user, but have owned a number of the Leica
models, never a film one though, only ever aspired to film ones when
i was younger.

I purchased a Digilux 1 and 2 , got rid of both for being too
limiting and the difference between those and a Nikon D200 was quite
large in quality.

Click to expand...

The new Leicas have improved greatly in the ISO and IQ dept. The D-Lux 4 provides probably the best output in a small sensor camera. Ever. But they are not DSLR's so they are not comparable to them in speed or IQ due to sensor size.

Antony Blake said:

Purchased the DLUX2 and very quickly found the noise to be horrendous
compared to my P&S coolpix S200, i loved the feel and the 16:9 but
the images from the JPG were OK, RAW needed work.

Click to expand...

The D-lux 2 was very noisy and why I avoided it. It does not compare to the 4, and the D-lux 4 JPEG output has no issues.

Antony Blake said:

I had an Epson Rangefinder RD1s and liked it for about 100 clicks,
found the lenses limiting, so I stayed clear of the M8 for a while.

Click to expand...

if you did not like the RD-1 shooting experience, you would not like an M8. The M8 file quality is better than the Rd-1 though.

Antony Blake said:

Am I just too torn up in the lazy world of autofocus, I can see the
differences between the Leica lenses of old and the images, I can
even see the difference between the resolution of a R9 +DMR versus a
Canon 1DS III when tested on the forum but we are talking a lot of
money differences in lens collections and reach.

Click to expand...

The R9 is discontinued, no longer being made. R lenses, same thing. DMR, same thing. I used to be big on AF bodies but after owning nearly all of them (Nikon D70, D100, D2hs, D200, D300, D700, D2x) I am happiest with my little M8 and my wife's D-lux 4. If you NEED AF an M8 wont do it for you. The D-Lux 4 AF is very fast though.

Antony Blake said:

So now I was impressed by a colleague of mine's Panny I think its the
latest LX3 or LX4 ?? And so I watch again for the Leica in this
space, the romance, the age the feel the little Red Dot, im hooked
but the actual output always lets me down.?

Click to expand...

The LX3 is pretty much a D-Lux 4 minus 3 year warranty, capture one software and red dot. The output of the D-Lux 4 is wonderful. Nothing to be let down by.

Antony Blake said:

By day I am a Wedding photographer Pro, so Nikon is my work kit. I
wanted to slow down and get away from work kit while I am in a social
mood.

Is it me, am I too demanding of a carry around that is not work kit ?

Am I too used to getting a D3 Nikon and the quality blowing me away ?

Click to expand...

I used to shoot weddings as well. The D3 is a fantastic DSLR, and the quality is all you could ask for really. BUT its huge, heavy and the lenses are also huge and heavy. This makes for a HUGE camera to casually take a stroll with. Also, the M8 files can stand toe to toe and even surpass the D3 as far as detail is concerned.

Antony Blake said:

YOUR thoughts at a debate level please, not flames as I said I have
owned many Leica's and still want to buy an R9 the feel of it is
amazing but by sensible head keeps stopping me, and the film stuff is
such a phaff these days.

The S series intrigues, only because of the price. I considered the
M8 but oh my the cost and looking at the lenses and the discretion
these days of the so called street photographer, I can be more
discrete with a compact like G10 Canon than most cameras, so Leica
fans and users, why do I clamber for one and feel let down ?.

Click to expand...

Yea, you can use a G10 or D-lux 4 for most street shooting. No need for an M8. Using an M8 is more of an emotional experience. It makes you want to go out and shoot and when you get a good shot, the results will please you as it's quality is still top notch. The lenses are incredible.

Antony Blake said:

Help me see the new Leica in a different light, does it perform at
Max zoom, been reading about putting a range finder viewer on it that
renders it a 24mm camera. I dont want to fight with technology I just
want to use it.

Click to expand...

What kind of light do you want to see it in? It is what it is. A best in class, world class compact digital camera. Its sleek, sexy and its image quality is as good as it gets with small sensor cams. It's also very fast and the battery life is great. Macro is also very good on the D-Lux 4. At max zoom it performs just fine and the viewfinder is an accessory. It's not needed to use the camera but if you like a VF it adds to the "experience"

Good luck, I am sure others will chime in with better answers to your questions.

--
My New Digital Camera Site! M8, D-Lux 4, D700, & more!
http://www.stevehuffphotos.com

My Ongoing M8 Gallery
http://www.pbase.com/stevehuff/leica_m8_images

My Homeless Project
http://www.pbase.com/stevehuff/the_homeless

Well John you certainly are passionate about it. Makes me want to go play with the DLUX4.

I love the idea its fast and as you say the viewfinder will add to the experience of feeling like a DSLR. I still believe I need to close one eye to take a picture.

Thank you for your fast and full input. The M8 is too slow for me you are correct, autofocus seems to be so good on the D3 im spoiled.

The panny LX3 is obviously the same bar a few coatings on the lens but if you are gonna do it then have a dot right !!!!

Anyone compared this baby to a Canon G9/10 ??? Is the shutter lag better ?? Its the one that kills my love of compacts also.

thanks John

In many ways I tend to lean towards & agree with what digislr is saying. I had a D300 + 18-200vr lense for it and in many ways I liked it. BUT! Even that felt big, lumpy & heavy to haul around. Especially since my day-to-day job has nothing to do with photos it was too much.. I found myself leaving it behind and missing great photos just because it was too much of a bother to carry it around for a photo or few.

So I went for the "business trend" of these days, downsizing.. I'm now shooting with D-Lux 4 & Nikon D60 and couple of light weight lenses. From this experience in many conditions the D-Lux can match or come close to Nikon territory - which ofcourse is very satisfying! Considering ergonomics I like to think it actually comes close to D60... both have to be operated via menus in many ways and the D-Lux has this covered as good as it can get. Compared to the D300 and the more professional dslr's - of course not. They have dedicated buttons etc.

For me the little D-Lux has brought back my joy in taking photos. I've started to experiment more and I more often have the camera with me than before. In a way that also translates to what was in the previous post regarded as emotional experience. It just feels good.

Regarding the rangefinders wether film or digital, I have no personal experience so my comments are next to worthless. A good friend of mine however shoots with an M6 ttl film rangefinder and his photos come out really nice both in print and scanned. I have had a few chances of trying it for a photo or two and it seems like a really interesting camera. Naturally I was really slow working with it since "I've grown with AF". But still it rubbed me the right way if you know what I mean..

I guess what I'm trying to say is that sure compacts have their limits but once you come into terms with them they can be very satisfying. And regarding the M8 or the R-series there is more to quality than just the actual output. Sure the image matters and is the price for all the effort but at least for me it also comes down to what feels good.. Since I'm now enjoying my photo hobby more, I like to think I'm also taking better pictures.

Like Jim here likes to say "It's not the kit, it's who's using it".. or something like that

Do what feels right, try not to expect D3 quality from small sensor cameras (wether compacts or M8 & the likes) and take some beautifull photos! Have fun!

--

Juha

Wow this is a fast thread..

A quick note on the G9/G10 vs D-Lux4 comparison... There was a compact shootout in a Finnish pro photography magazine last december. They had the G10, D-Lux4 & Nikon P6000 on the same line.

G10 & D-Lux 4 were miles above P6000 and the overall winner was D-Lux. It came down to a better and faster lense & more headroom in raw files to play with. G10 got credits for slightly better ergonomy and overall more dslr like handling. On the same note it was also considered big & heavy for a PS. In pure image quality Leica won the lot.

--

Juha

So there is nothing wrong with making the tradition of Leica a little faster right ??

I like the extra input, yes photos are emotional, I use Aperture for all my processing on MAC so not interested in Capture1, but sure have to have a red dot when i shoot.

Interesting about he thread on CanonvsNikonvs Leica. It amazes me how nikon are so bad at compacts and Canon great, glad Leica got it right on the DLUX4.

Well I am off to search one out on the web and find out if I can get the missus to agree the spend. Another camera !! you didnt Like the last Leica, whats different.

At least I can point her to this thread

You should be aware that it does not support DL4 Raw files yet so you will have to find a work around until Apple can handle these files. I have been shooting RAW plus JPEG and when I need to convert the RAW files I use CS4 but Capture 1 work well on a Mac also.

"I use Aperture for all my processing on MAC so not interested in Capture1..."

--
http://www.belvedereimages.com

You are talking about the Panasonic, Faux-Leicas.

If you want a compact digital Lieca for social shooting, just suck it up and buy an M8.2 or even a clean used M8.

How can you say you like Leica culture but don't want to shoot with its exemplar?

--

'No matter how capable it may be, any camera you have to hold out in front of you like a tourist is not cool.'
Dean Forbes

A little harsh wouldn't you say? Who is to say what is "faux" and what is not? The D-Lux 4 has a Leica lens on it, Leica tweaked firmware inside, Leica styling and the little red dot. Doesn't that warrant to say it's a Leica?

Going by the faux logics one would be tempted to say that many of the first digital nikon slr's were faux as well, they used a Sony ccd... and none of the coolpixes are nikons at all, they're rebranded OEM's. It's an endless debate. Point is many camera manufacturers co-operate and have co-operated in the past. Doesn't make them more faux than others..

And about the culture... He may very well enjoy the "Leica look" despite not enjoying say ergonomics or other aspects of the cameras he's used before. Some tools fit others better than the rest. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy the results even if you don't necessarely like all the tools. Also he may like the general warm feeling that is apparent on this forum most of the time?

Give the man a break!

Btw, sorry to rant on you but I just felt the sudden urge to say something because I felt much of the critisism was misplaced and somewhat harsh on a fellow forum member.

--

Juha

The lens is not made by Leica. They just designed it and collect a licensing fee for the name. Leica lenses are made in Solm, Germany by Leica, not by Panasonic.

If he want the "Leica Look", he's only going to get that with Leica glass and an M body that was made by Leica at Solmes.



--

'No matter how capable it may be, any camera you have to hold out in front of you like a tourist is not cool.'
Dean Forbes

It's easy to understand how Leica lenses affect the picture, but how would you say the body plays a roll in that matter?

Stovall said:

The lens is not made by Leica. They just designed it and collect a
licensing fee for the name. Leica lenses are made in Solm, Germany
by Leica, not by Panasonic.

If he want the "Leica Look", he's only going to get that with Leica
glass and an M body that was made by Leica at Solmes.



--
'No matter how capable it may be, any camera you have to hold out in
front of you like a tourist is not cool.'
Dean Forbes

Click to expand...

--

• markE

http://www.pbase.com/marke

'Good street/wildlife photography is a controlled accident,
a vision of preparation and surrender materialized.'

The ability to see outside the frame. You can watch dynamic events unfold and move into the frame. Only a rangefinder provides you with this powerful way of seeing.

With a dSLR you are seeing the world through a pipe while a Leica rangefinder is like a window.

--

'No matter how capable it may be, any camera you have to hold out in front of you like a tourist is not cool.'
Dean Forbes

Antony, you aren't required to like Leicas ;-) Compared to a D3, the M8 is limited, it's noisier, and highlights clip easier. It is not a grand touring automobile offering high performance with full amenities, it's a nice sports car that's been pared back to the essentials, with not a heated seat or cruise control in sight. Not everyone enjoys that sort of thing.

Stovall said:

The lens is not made by Leica. They just designed it and collect a
licensing fee for the name. Leica lenses are made in Solm, Germany
by Leica, not by Panasonic.

Click to expand...

It's Solms, not Solm.

Stovall said:

If he want the "Leica Look", he's only going to get that with Leica
glass and an M body that was made by Leica at Solmes.

Click to expand...

It's Solms, not Solmes.... and the above is BS... the body has nothing to do with it... nothing, nada, zippo.. it's just the glass, John.. just the glass is responsible for the alleged "Leica Look". Show me proof in any form that an M body has anything to do with generating the "Leica Look".... it's the glass not the body.

Smack my hand... I wasn't going to comment on your Faux Leica crusade but I just can't ignore the misinformation you put forth.

--
Jim Radcliffe
http://www.boxedlight.com
http://www.oceona.com

The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear.... and remember, a camera is a tool, not a religion.

I would have to agree with John on this one. As nice as the compacts are they are not Leicas. If you want the Leica experience its the M series that Leica made their reputation with. No one as yet has been able to come up with what is the difference between the the Panasonic compacts and the Leicas. There are hints and speculation but no hard facts. The M8 is all Leica, the glass and the the body. Its the range finder design that makes the lenses so good, because there is no mirror box there is no compromise. Even Cosina can make good range finder lenses and they are very ho hum when it comes to SLR lenses.

Using the M series is a mindset, a lot of people who have grown up as photographers using AF SLRs can't make the adjustment.

Stovall said:

The ability to see outside the frame. You can watch dynamic events
unfold and move into the frame. Only a rangefinder provides you with
this powerful way of seeing.

Click to expand...

Yes, I completely agree. But that's not what you originally said:

Stovall said:

If he want the "Leica Look", he's only going to get that with Leica
glass and an M body that was made by Leica at Solmes.

Click to expand...

What about a Bessa RF body wouldn't allow you the same results and a Leica M body?
--

• markE

http://www.pbase.com/marke

'Good street/wildlife photography is a controlled accident,
a vision of preparation and surrender materialized.'

The Bressa is a short base rangefinder nor does it have the same "feel" of an M body.

It will give you some of the benefits of a rangefinder but not the experience, Camary vs BMW 5 series.

--

'No matter how capable it may be, any camera you have to hold out in front of you like a tourist is not cool.'
Dean Forbes

Antony Blake said:

So I am a Pro Nikon user ...
I purchased a Digilux 1 and 2 , got rid of both for being too
limiting and the difference between those and a Nikon D200 was quite
large in quality ...

... I had an Epson Rangefinder RD1s and liked it for about 100 clicks,
found the lenses limiting, so I stayed clear of the M8 for a while ...

... I was impressed by a colleague of mine's Panny I think its the
latest LX3 or LX4 ...

By day I am a Wedding photographer Pro, so Nikon is my work kit. I
wanted to slow down and get away from work kit while I am in a social
mood.

Is it me, am I too demanding of a carry around that is not work kit ?

Am I too used to getting a D3 Nikon and the quality blowing me away ?

The S series intrigues ...

Help me see the new Leica in a different light ...

Click to expand...

Only you can decide what compromises you are willing to make.

If ultimate IQ is your only goal - why aren't you shooting a 60mp Blad or 8x10 film?

Everything involves compromises - which are YOU willing to live with?

Best.

--
Vaya con Dios
imo
(c) fastglass

more petrol to the flames....

It's been said earlier in this thread that M-series is the way to go for Leica look. I'm quite sure many have said the R-series have the Leica look as well... and that's got nothing to do with rangefinders. Sure I can understand that rangefinder effects how you compose, but since it's the glass that's responsible for "Leica look" you really can't argue only M does it.

And about the faux Leica stuff still.. ok, the lense is made by panasonic but it's still Leicas design. If Panasonic makes it to the specs of Leica, what does it matter where it's being made? And yeah, I know LX-3 is no different (besides few minor details) from DL4.. that's why I wasn't commenting on that Don't want a flame war around that starting when everybody already knows the end result...

Anyway, to say something that bears the name of the manufactures is not the manufacturers real product is a little hypocrate.. They're owning up to the product, it's been proven quality product. So what's so hard admitting it's a Leica?

--

Juha