From PMA floor

Agreed. I was just using that as a price point, although I think t/s
is more versatile than some realize.
I think it's going to become increasingly important as people catch onto the diffraction issue & read articles along the lines of what David Kilpatrick & Thom Hogan have written on the subject.
I guess, since I'm one who invests
in glass first, body second, this is all a little counter intuitive
to me. Sure, a lot of users will stretch to buy the A900 (and it's
often time more camera than they need,) but I think that when a lot
of high end users look at the Sony system when deciding on whether to
invest in it, most of the high end bases are covered outside of
expensive teles, t/s, and fast wide primes.
Hard to say. I see some people looking at it as affordable medium format. Others are attracted by CZ lenses. And of course many are just existing user base.

I'm task-oriented, buying lenses for a purpose. But that applies to cameras, too, so I'd buy the A900 only if it suited a purpose, and that purpose likely would not be one that coincides with fast tele lenses for sports or wildlife. I'd be shooting stopped down for DOF from a tripod and a lot of lenses could do the job. A t/s would be nice, but I kind of like zooms. Sure primes might be sharper (questionable when stopped down) but how often does a prime offer the exact FOV you want ? The added sharpness of a prime can be lost to cropping.

I'd be happy with the mythical 24-105/4 and 70-400 for coverage and maybe a fast prime or two, though I can see continuing to use low res APS-C (or cropped A900) for handheld stuff.

Bring on the t/s ! Bring on the f/1.8 primes ! Bring on the 70-200/4 ! More more more :)
  • Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
 
--

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'd love to see more, more, more as well :) I guess this just all about the order in which they do it in. It seems to me that, from most non-Sony user's looking whether to invest in the A900, the main holes that are mentioned are the teles and the t/s. Wide end primes are a concern too, although the new 16-35 helped temper that a bit. The holes in the lineup that are based around cost (ie. cheaper 85mm,) aren't usually as much of a concern with who I talk to, but I realize that doesn't account for everyone.
 
First, an $1800 zoom is a lot more veratile than a t/s prime. It's a
bread & butter lens for a lot of photography.
Not so fast, zooms can be very versital, you can cover a lot of primes and other zooms with one good zoom. But a zoom can't cover a TS spot. Where many lenses can stand in for others (aperture is close enough, FL close enough, etc), you can't stand in for a TS.

They are also very versatile lenses in there own right as all ready mentioned, from landscape, architecture, macro work, etc. And people do it with just a single focal length. Plus a TS still gives me a rectilinear prime. A 24mm TS with an A900 gives a person all the benefits of a TS, plus a nice prime, plus with all the pixels available to crop with, a pretty good "digital zoom" available to them. But a zoom lens, no matter how good can only be a straight up lens.
 
The problem is you don't understand the need or how large the demand is.

Sony would sell way more TS lenses than they will any big tele lens. Nikon is all ready finding this out. They can't keep there TS lenses in stock, they are on the 3rd or 4th run of the 24 PCE now. They don't sell the big teles in those numbers.

Look around at most reviewers these days, from David Kilpartick, to Thom Hogan, they are all pointing out the same thing, the new High Res FF bodies are making TS lenses required lenses just to deal with defraction, let alone the normal uses of these lenses. Reviewers are bringing up lack of TS lenses in almost every review of the A900. It's a very real problem.

Makers are bringing out TS stuff left and right because of the need. The last year we have seen

3 Nikon TS
2 Canon TS
1 Maymia/PhaseOne TS
1 Hassyblad TS teleconvertor which gives them 3 TS lenses
1 Lecia TS for the S2 announced
1 Acra Swiss body that is basicaly a TS medium format body.

The need for them is growing. And people are becoming more aware of them. The price of them is in advanced amature range, and with digital people aren't afraid to give them a shot, they can always sell them if it's not for them. It's not like they suffer bad resale.

Sony brought the A900, it doesn't need any Big Tele lenses, not it's kind of usage. But it very much needs TS lenses. A 24mm TS lens would help sell more A900s than any 300mm and up Tele, or even basic primes. Sony needed the 16-35 and 24-70 for it, and they did it. They have the 2 most needed primes for it (85 and 135ZA). Aside from TS lenses, the only other lens that could help them out is some macro stuff, mainly a 200mm Macro. Of course said lens might cost more than a TS lens.

If Sony had brought a D3/D700 type body, then they would need stuff more towards the Tele world. But they brought a Medium format replacement.

If you are buying an A900, you have the 16-35 to cover those prime needs, or just use the Minoltas that are still out there. If you buy a couple primes, you have equaled the price of the ZA zoom. You can also buy some Sigma Primes as a stand in option. You have options that aren't that bad.

Sony isn't going to go an expect that folks buying 3K bodies are putting 0.3K lenses on it. The cheap lenses are APS, the FF stuff is high end stuff. This was made pretty clear to me and a fellow Dyxum member at PMA 2 years ago. We asked Sony about lenses like the 2/35. The response was simple from the lens/accessory folks "why would you want an F2, we have an F1.4/35".

Right now, the of the lenses I want to have for my ideal setup, Sony doesn't make a single one. (have to get to my expanded system lens list). But all but a TS lens, I can make due with what we have well enough. Sony has things well covered when it comes to pure focal length/aperture coverage. No, you won't find exactly what you want, but you can manage fine. But you can't substitute TS lenses. Just like you can't substitute and STF. I'd prefer to see them make a 55 STF and 85 STF over many basic primes. I'm not going to buy one soon, but that gives folks some unique options.

Also remember, you go to Nikon or Canon, they aren't doing anything with the lenses you like either. Their slow primes are dead too, they just have inventory around, where for Sony you need to find a used minolta. People in those systems ask for what you want too, and it's not happening. Good quality, low price zooms killed the cheap prime. A lens like the 2.8/28-75 makes a lot of those lenses redundant. It's not giving much up optically to them, and for many of them you are only loose 1 stop. Makes it really hard to justify as a maker of making a bunch of primes it overlaps or comes near too. Every Prime 24 through 85 that's around F2 or slower is basically covered by that lens well enough. Believe me, I own it both ways, both that lens, and the 2.8/24, 2/28, 1.4/50, 1.7/50, I can more than manage with the 1 zoom, and the zoom cost me less. (in some cases less than just one of those lenses (2/28). And if you go with the fact I got my 28-75 for 199 bucks, for less than all but the 1.7/50).

I would love to see 4/16ZA, 2.8/20ZA, 2.8/24ZA, 2/28ZA, 1.8/35ZA, 1.8/50ZA, some day, but it's just not happening soon.
The biggest gap in the lens line, in regards to the A900, is
telephoto and t/s. Telephoto looks like it will be adressed first.
We would see even more Nikon users adding the A900 to their arsenal
if T/S was available.
Ah yes.. all 3 of them...

I am just curious - for those who who keep saying how critical these
silly T/S lenses are (expect PT, I know he actually would), how many
of you actually WOULD buy these $2000 lenses? I mean, lets get
freaking real folks. The LAST thing Sony needs to waste their time
on is silly T/S lenses. We A-Mount users need better affordable
lenses (the 20mm and 24mm are in bad need of a refresh, aside from
the other holes in our system).

And yes, I am adamant... I want some good lenses that I will actually
use (and be able to afford). It is so frustrating to see everyone
asking for these useless lenses they wont even buy!

--
My ever-growing flickr gallery:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dsbphotography
 
"For those willing to spend $3K on a camera body, $2k on a lens is
well within the realm of possible purchase. "

Faulty assumption! I bought an A900 because it is the best deal out
there, from a quality/cost standpoint. I have no intention of buying
those overpriced godzilla lenses.
Yes, it's a great deal, but it's still a 3K body. Any maker looks at it the same, people who buy such a body better not be stretched where they can't buy matching lenses. Plus lenses should have been factored into the deal. On top of that, 2 years ago, the knock on Sony was lack of high end lenses, now they are knocked for not having lower end stuff and only making high end lenses. See the issue.
I have to agree with those posters who would have Sony wait on the
T/S lenses. They should plug some BASIC holes in their lineup before
they release any more of this exotic glass.
TS lenses aren't that exoctic. They are a slow prime with big coverage and user inflicted mis-alignment.
Affordable quality primes. That's what I'm in the market for. A
24/2.8, a 28/2, a 35/2. Nikon and Canon make these lenses and sell
them cheaply, as did Minolta before Sony bought them out.

Oh well.
Well, the 2/28 and 2/35 were discontinued by KM long before Sony came around. As were most the G teles. Minolta and KM had things down to basically the same you see today. Further, Nikon and Canon have those lenses, like Minolta did, Sony does not. It's pretty much self explanatory. Companies have what they have because they still have some around, doesn't mean they are actively doing anything with them. C and N haven't touched theirs in ages. For Sony to keep them, they would have to have touched them to make it happen. So it didn't happen. Of course the 2/28 and 2/35 were probably never an option for Sony as they were not even current production. If Canon and Nikon start bringing out FF updates of their F1.8, F2, F2.8 low end primes, then there is something to be said. Otherwise, it is what it is.
 
I agree. Oh, that hotshoe--I could strangle Sony for keeping that
infuriating mount. I've just gotten interested in using off-camera
flash and man, that hotshoe makes it such a pain.
Except that using on-camera flash is made a LOT easier with it. ;-)

I hate using the old sloppy standard mount myself.
And the nerve of Sony for charging over a hundred dollars for that
little adapter. Outrageous.
That's why you get a generic one for $10.

Greg
 
All the new lenses(save the unknown pro-oriented fix long range lens)
have af/mf switch, which might indicate build-in motors.
Yes, all the new lenses are SSM.
So, it looks to me sony is preparing A1000, which has no in-body AF
motor.
No, no highend or lowend camera coming out. And no, every camera will have an AF motor.

Until you see an SSM kitlens replacement, any suggestion of a low-end body without a focus motor is silly. And any suggestion even of a high-end camera not having it...well, that's just absurd.

Greg
 
Hi Ken,

Any news on accessories? We need a small flash controller for the A900.
No, no flash controller is planned.

But then again, this was coming from 'the wireless flash guy", who also couldn't tell me how ratio wireless worked (technically). Neither could another rep.

Only Mark Wier was recommended as being able to explain from an engineering standpoint how the flash system worked, but he made himself scarce and so no one was available to explain any technical details.

Just moderately educated sales reps.

Greg
 
No new news on this front.. I did ping all the other third party
flash people I could find like sigma..
The best option is the Metz Ring Flash. It's got many of the functions of the Minolta ring flash, and works via wireless TTL.

MSRP is $400.

Metz also has an M8 version of the 3302 module out, allegedly for the A900.

Greg
 
You failed to factor in the tiny little issue with the Tele's being in constant supply for a very long time, so the demand has not been pent up.

This is the COMPLETE opposite with T/S lenses, where they have not been available for quite a long time on the F mount, except for FL that are relatively useless on the DX format.

This is by no means a small issue when looking at B&H and seeing what is and is not available. Additionally, it does not take into account production capability and balancing of the respective lens types. By no means a small issue here, also.

But, it does sound nice when you want to convince people that T/S lenses should be a priority.

--

My dry sense of humor is completely mis-interpreted when put in writing as proven by the post immediately following this one.
 
Walt,

I'm genuinely curious, what would you suggest Sony offer to make you
happy? Are you looking for a 20 year extended warranty? If so, what
would you consider a reasonable price for the warranty?
I'm looking for repair prices consistent with what was done. As it sits to keep the a700 for 20 years I'd probably need the 20 year warranty just to be safe from the huge repair bills.

Say the internal battery needed replacing. It can be gotten out with little more than outer shell removal. But it's still going to cost you the same fixed repair fee. Over 20 years you will go through a few of them.

Or, say you want to change to one of the other viewfinder screens. Yep, same repair fee.

Or replace the sockets for the cards, another simple job. Again a huge repair bill.

What I will probably do is find the rest of the repair manual, which btw should be readily available through parts for a reasonable cost. And then do my own repairs as much as possible.

How many repairs, hard to say, my Minolta RD175, three CCD system and all still runs like new over 15 years after I bought it. Needed no repairs even with the heavy field use I put it through. Too bad the software does not run on current os.

Walt
 
Sony isn't going to go an expect that folks buying 3K bodies are
putting 0.3K lenses on it. The cheap lenses are APS, the FF stuff is
high end stuff. This was made pretty clear to me and a fellow Dyxum
member at PMA 2 years ago. We asked Sony about lenses like the 2/35.
The response was simple from the lens/accessory folks "why would you
want an F2, we have an F1.4/35".
Sigh. That's the kind of arrogance that makes me a bit sorry Sony took over from KM. Sony understands marketing; KM understood photographers. Obviously marketing wins, so we're better off, but ...

Why would you want a 35/2 when we have a 35/1.4 ? How about the fact that it costs $300 instead of $1300, is smaller, less obtrusive and I just don't need f/1.4 ?

When KM showed their wares at Photoplus, the booth was pretty empty - a few Maxxum system owners and a few curious people would stop by. Now that Sony is bigger and offering CZ lenses and 24MP FF (and everyone knows they make sensors used in Nikon cameras) they get more attention at the shows. People who aren't Sony users stop by to look. Real working pros stop by to look. You overhear one ask "when is Sony going to put live view in these things" and hear "real photographers don't need live view". Nice - lecture working pros on what they do & don't need.

It's great that Sony has a $3000 FF camera. But Canon has a $2600 FF camera. And if it's buggy, that's a temporary situation. Meanwhile you can put 35/2, 50/1.8 and 85/1.8 lenses on the 5DII and have a $3500 kit. But you don't need those lenses, Sony offers f/1.4 lenses (total cost for the A900 and f/1.4 primes: $6000) ... and they can't see why anyone would want the slower lenses ?

Maybe it's the market and sales expectations ... if Sony isn't counting on gaining market share, then they have all the lenses they need.

People tend to view the $3000 A900 as something that only working pros or rich amateurs will buy, but already, it's attractive to a few enthusiasts who will stretch their budgets to get medium format quality for a relatively low price. And FF is only going to get cheaper. Maybe in 2 years, you can get FF bodies for $2000. That's not much more than the 7D cost new ! Suddenly it's not just people who can dump $5000 on lenses buying these things.
A lens like the 2.8/28-75 makes a lot of those lenses
redundant. It's not giving much up optically to them, and for many
of them you are only loose 1 stop. Makes it really hard to justify
as a maker of making a bunch of primes it overlaps or comes near too.
Every Prime 24 through 85 that's around F2 or slower is basically
covered by that lens well enough.
The 28-75/2.8 is ok on the A900; it will give you more detail in bigger prints than anything on APS-C. But it's short, esp on FF, and some people buying a 24MP FF are going to be looking for cheap primes to exploit that sensor.

I also own the 28-75/2.8 as well as 28/2 and 85/1.4 primes. Both primes at f/2 are sharper than the zoom is at f/2.8. I was lucky enough to buy my 28/2 a couple years ago as prices were taking off for under $350.
I would love to see 4/16ZA, 2.8/20ZA, 2.8/24ZA, 2/28ZA, 1.8/35ZA,
1.8/50ZA, some day, but it's just not happening soon.
It's unfortunate. If I were buying a system from scratch today, I probably would not choose Sony. The lack of affordable fast primes (either new or used) is reducing the supposed benefit of in-body stabilization, and I for one am becoming increasingly interested in a compact system that lets me be shoot without drawing attention (and carry my gear more easily). The 35/1.4 is not an attractive option. (The expected Panasonic 20/1.7 for micro 4/3 would be ideal, but a 35/2 is far, far better than the f/1.4 lens).
  • Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
 
One other thing ... Sony says we don't need $300 f/2 primes because we have $1300 f/1.4 primes ...

So why do we need a $500 28-75 when we already have the CZ24-70 ?

I'm just not following any of it.
  • Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
 
I was not aware that sony said that we don't need $300 primes. When did they say that?

The difference between Sony and Canan and Nikon is simple: 25 years.

These "KM lenses (they weren't - KM never made them because they were discontinued by Minolta) have been out of the arsenal for a very long time.

On the other hand, the Canon and Nikon lenses have been around for decades, and aside from interface updates, have not been touched pretty much since introduction.

Also, the glow of these lenses is brighter than their performance. Canon's weakness is in their wide primes. Nikon's 35mm f2.0 is not well respected, and they do not make a 28mm f2.0. I would not be surprised is the 16-35CZ mops the floor with both the Canon and Nikon primes in some of that zoom's range.

Lens designs do not need to be updated as fast as cameras, and that has always been true. You can still get good performance out of a 20 year old design without having to put any money or resources into it. That is, of course, once the lens actually exists (and you have IP rights to produce it).

So, shame on Sony for not being in the SLR game since 1985!

--

My dry sense of humor is completely mis-interpreted when put in writing as proven by the post immediately following this one.
 
--
Hey Greg, I think Sony is showing a kit lens replacement in that new
18-55mm they have on display, right?
Did I lose count already? I recalled it being...

30 macro
50 1.8
55-200
28-75
and the big monster.

Oops, it's 5+1, not five total. I missed a new 18-55 SSM, my mistake. I still don't think they will create a motorless body, but it is much more viable on the low end, then. Apologies.

Regarding the 28-75mm, it looked like a Tamron rebadge/upgrade of the old KM model. The Sony rep agreed, but couldn't confirm.

Regarding the silver lens, we also thought it looked most like a 400/2.8, but obviously a 500/4 would be similar.

Regarding the silver color, I was corrected that it is actually "titanium", and is intended to make Sony G lenses more recognizable, since Canon stole the white branding that Minolta started.

Greg
 
I would love to see 4/16ZA, 2.8/20ZA, 2.8/24ZA, 2/28ZA, 1.8/35ZA,
1.8/50ZA, some day, but it's just not happening soon.
I would like to see some of those lenses & like most people here have a wish list. I don't want to worry you or be classed as a scaremonger, but in another forum (FM) there has been talk that the relationship between Sony & Zeiss has cooled and may even be over, with Sony preferring to design there own lenses in-house. This saves on costs and in the current economic climate & following Sony's recent huge loss, would make business sense for the bead counters

Have you or has anyone else heard anything about future ZA lenses
 
I'd really like to hear about firmware updates to the A200/300/350
series. Do they discuss this sort of thing at this show?
I didn't ask that question, but yeah, it seemed geared towards hardware. I doubt anyone would have known.

The technical questions I did ask, specifically regarding wireless flash, were redirected towards the one guru (Mark Weir), but he was too busy to get ahold of.

Greg
 
Strikes me as wild speculation

--

My dry sense of humor is completely mis-interpreted when put in writing as proven by the post immediately following this one.
 

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