Diwa says: D-90 more noisy than E-3?

LucaPCP

Leading Member
Messages
874
Reaction score
191
Location
Mountain View USA, US
I am comparing the signal-to-noise ratios given at Diwa for the E-3
and D-90:

http://www.diwa-labs.com/wip4/compare_camera.epl?product=6414
http://www.diwa-labs.com/wip4/compare_camera.epl?product=7091

The E-3 seems to be less noisy... am I reading the graphs correctly?
I was expecting the E-3 to be more noisy, given all the talk that
Olympuses are not the best for high ISO...
DIWA also says that the ZD 12-60 is softer in the corners wide open than the Nikon 24-120 on FF.

If you prefer tests that actually correspond to reality, check out DXO instead: http://dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Image-Quality-Database/Compare-cameras/ appareil1) 294|0 (appareil2) 220|0 (onglet) 0 (brand) Nikon (brand2) Olympus;

The gap at higher ISOs is between .6 and 1EV.

--
MFBernstein

'Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit.' - Ed Abbey
 
I am comparing the signal-to-noise ratios given at Diwa for the E-3
and D-90:

http://www.diwa-labs.com/wip4/compare_camera.epl?product=6414
http://www.diwa-labs.com/wip4/compare_camera.epl?product=7091

The E-3 seems to be less noisy... am I reading the graphs correctly?
I was expecting the E-3 to be more noisy, given all the talk that
Olympuses are not the best for high ISO...
DIWA also says that the ZD 12-60 is softer in the corners wide open
than the Nikon 24-120 on FF.

If you prefer tests that actually correspond to reality, check out
DXO instead:

http://dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Image-Quality-Database/Compare-cameras/ appareil1) 294|0 (appareil2) 220|0 (onglet) 0 (brand) Nikon (brand2) Olympus;

The gap at higher ISOs is between .6 and 1EV.

--
MFBernstein

'Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit.' -
Ed Abbey
Thanks, very useful!

D-90 seems 1/3 ev less sensitive, and the performance in tonal range is about 1 ev worse, so as you say, the real difference is about 2/3 ev.

Interestingly, the E-3 and E-520 test almost identically. I wonder how the E-30 will test...

--
Luca
 
Interestingly, the E-3 and E-520 test almost identically. I wonder
how the E-30 will test...
Probably somewhere between the same and .3EV worse in terms of noise. Olympus cameras seem to do slightly better than Panasonic's with the same sensors (E-3 vs. L10) and the E-30 shares the same sensor as the G1, which offers essentially the same performance as the L10 did (.3EV worse than the E-3).

--
MFBernstein

'Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit.' - Ed Abbey
 
Interestingly, the E-3 and E-520 test almost identically. I wonder
how the E-30 will test...
Probably somewhere between the same and .3EV worse in terms of noise.
Olympus cameras seem to do slightly better than Panasonic's with the
same sensors (E-3 vs. L10) and the E-30 shares the same sensor as the
G1, which offers essentially the same performance as the L10 did
(.3EV worse than the E-3).

--
MFBernstein

'Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit.' -
Ed Abbey
This would be slightly disappointing...

I am interested in upgrading from the E-520 to the E-620 to get, primarily, full info in the viewfinder (I want to see the ISO settings, otherwise ISO auto is of limited use). It is likely that the E-620 will have less banding, but nore noise than the E-520 would be a disappointment...

--
Luca
 
D-90 seems 1/3 ev less sensitive, and the performance in tonal range
is about 1 ev worse, so as you say, the real difference is about 2/3
ev.
This is not true and always has been disputed by editors of this site. The difference is due solely to a lack of standardization of the ISO definition. If you set the D90 at the exact same aperture, shutter speed, and ISO, you will get an image exposed exactly the same. There was a huge thread about this a while back.
 
This would be slightly disappointing...
I am interested in upgrading from the E-520 to the E-620 to get,
primarily, full info in the viewfinder (I want to see the ISO
settings, otherwise ISO auto is of limited use). It is likely that
the E-620 will have less banding, but nore noise than the E-520 would
be a disappointment...
I think the recent threads seem to bear this out (e.g. http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=31181153 ). I've also been pondering on the E-620, and whether it would make sense to upgrade my E-420, and on purely IQ grounds, unless shooting at high ISOs, I'm doubtful.

Cheers,

--
MFBernstein

'Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit.' - Ed Abbey
 
The link in the discussion above...

mfbernstein wrote
if you prefer tests that actually correspond to reality, check out DXO instead: > http://dxomark.com/ ... ... 220|0 (onglet) 0 (brand) Nikon (brand2) Olympus
The gap at higher ISOs is between .6 and 1EV.
LucaPCP wrote
Thanks, very useful!

D-90 seems 1/3 ev less sensitive, and the performance in tonal range is about 1 ev > worse, so as you say, the real difference is about 2/3 ev.
Interestingly, the E-3 and E-520 test almost identically. I wonder how the E-30 will > test...
And on DxO, the D90's sensor performance is superior to the E-3 in every test. It's actually surprisingly high compared to many high end bodies too.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/johncompiani/
 
Interesting read, I always figure the 4/3 can be coasted to produce cleaner data, but the Olympus strong AA filter coupled with strong NR + sharpening is IMHO in the way ... Shooting RAW let me take care of some of that, but not all ..

My 4/3 combo now is a Panasonci L1 and Olympus E420, and they clearly illustrate 2 mode of thoughts on the matter. Especially at high ISO

--
  • Franka -
 
those things are handy for comparison, but there is another way

if you can make comparisons based on the same DoF you will find the noise is pretty much always the same between the SLR formats. What larger formats have is the ability to use less DoF, and in that way have less noise in an image. Check this comparison out between D700 and G1 which bears out my suggestion almost exactly

http://www.seriouscompacts.com/2008/12/panasonic-g1-nikon-d700-iso-shootout.html
--
Riley

When I die I want to go peacefully sleeping like my Grandfather did...
not screaming, like the passengers in his car....
 
those things are handy for comparison, but there is another way

if you can make comparisons based on the same DoF you will find the
noise is pretty much always the same between the SLR formats. What
larger formats have is the ability to use less DoF, and in that way
have less noise in an image. Check this comparison out between D700
and G1 which bears out my suggestion almost exactly

http://www.seriouscompacts.com/2008/12/panasonic-g1-nikon-d700-iso-shootout.html
--
Riley
Is this the same Rriley or is it someone else using Rriley's ID? As I recall the same dof=the same noise was what joe mama used to say all along. Does it mean now Rriley is in a agreement with what joe mama's states in his article about the equivalence?

Excellent link!

--
-- Protect the little people! --
 
those things are handy for comparison, but there is another way

if you can make comparisons based on the same DoF you will find the
noise is pretty much always the same between the SLR formats. What
larger formats have is the ability to use less DoF, and in that way
have less noise in an image. Check this comparison out between D700
and G1 which bears out my suggestion almost exactly

http://www.seriouscompacts.com/2008/12/panasonic-g1-nikon-d700-iso-shootout.html
--
Riley
Is this the same Rriley or is it someone else using Rriley's ID? As I
recall the same dof=the same noise was what joe mama used to say all
along. Does it mean now Rriley is in a agreement with what joe mama's
states in his article about the equivalence?
oh wait, let me think back

as i recall it when joseph was banned, it was for the complaints filed for using that stuff to bash four thirds format. true or false?

Where joseph would say repeatedly FF could do things that 4/3rds couldnt do,

which while true didnt matter if you didnt need shallow dof, which is the core of the message that i persisted with with for years.

nothing has changed
Excellent link!
yes it is, and as i recall the discussion here with Sabat where you erroneously state
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1018&thread=25802922

joe mama wrote:
So, to summarize advantages for smaller sensor systems:
1) Smaller sensor systems have an advantage in size/weight for deeper DOF photography,
2) Smaller sensor systems have a noise advantage deeper DOF, limited light, maximal shutter speed photography.
on the same technology there is no 'noise advantage' to smaller formats,

since the light allowed through by the aperture is the same value per sq mm of effective sensor area, the noise is the same on the same sensor technology,

so to answer am i in agreement,
no, your assumption based on the above quote is erroneous

go edit your stuff and follow someone else around,
im not much interested in your romantic advances....
--
-- Protect the little people! --
BTW, its a wallaby...
oh and get my rank right...

--
Riley

When I die I want to go peacefully sleeping like my Grandfather did...
not screaming, like the passengers in his car....
 
oh wait, let me think back
as i recall it when joseph was banned, it was for the complaints
filed for using that stuff to bash four thirds format. true or false?
False, unless you provide links to where such bashing occurred.
Where joseph would say repeatedly FF could do things that 4/3rds
couldnt do,
True. FT can not do what FF can, is this bashing?
which while true didnt matter if you didnt need shallow dof, which is
the core of the message that i persisted with with for years.
The same goes for the wa corners at shallow dofs, they simply do not matter.
nothing has changed
I see it now
go edit your stuff and follow someone else around,
im not much interested in your romantic advances....
You got me mistaken for someone else Rriley, I am not following anyone. And neither do I need to edit what I said.

--
-- Protect the little people! --
 
oh wait, let me think back
as i recall it when joseph was banned, it was for the complaints
filed for using that stuff to bash four thirds format. true or false?
False, unless you provide links to where such bashing occurred.
Where joseph would say repeatedly FF could do things that 4/3rds
couldnt do,
True. FT can not do what FF can, is this bashing?
which while true didnt matter if you didnt need shallow dof, which is
the core of the message that i persisted with with for years.
The same goes for the wa corners at shallow dofs, they simply do not
matter.
no Joe, they do not matter to YOU
corners in UWA can be a critical component of a composition
indeed, more often than not, corners and edges ARE important
nothing has changed
I see it now
go edit your stuff and follow someone else around,
im not much interested in your romantic advances....
You got me mistaken for someone else Rriley, I am not following
anyone. And neither do I need to edit what I said.
yet you say with confidence
False, unless you provide links to where such bashing occurred.
how would you know that, if you were not Joe?
--
-- Protect the little people! --
edit your stuff
you know you have to be right
or i can say forever, that your stuff has mistakes in it
its a wallaby
and get my rank right....

--
Riley

When I die I want to go peacefully sleeping like my Grandfather did...
not screaming, like the passengers in his car....
 
Hey Rriley. Just thought I'd pop by using a friend's old account to clear up a bit of your usual mess. No, luckyakash isn't me, nor are many of the other IDs you've accused of being me. But, I do stay in contact with a few people and lurk from time to time. So, let's begin with the cleaning, eh?
oh wait, let me think back
as i recall it when joseph was banned, it was for the complaints filed for
using that stuff to bash four thirds format. true or false?
That would be "false". I never bashed 4/3 -- this post sums it up pretty nicely:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=29000993

"I suspect you would put JoeMama firmly in the troll category. I think he was one of the best posters ever in THIS forum even though he was a die-hard Canon guy. He quite clearly stated on numerous occasions that he actually admired many aspects of E-system and posted here only to correct some of the nuttier misinformation written here about full-frame cameras. His posts were incredibly well-written, articulate, and entertaining. He was a much better writer than you or me. He was also a damn fine photographer. He was unfailingly polite and good-natured even in the face of incredibly childish abuse by some of this forum's members. I say was, because he has been permanently banned from DPR recently, and I suspect the Oly forum thought police had a lot to do with that."
Where joseph would say repeatedly FF could do things that 4/3rds couldnt
do, which while true didnt matter if you didnt need shallow dof, which is the
core of the message that i persisted with with for years.
You mean like this?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=28398975:

"So, what's my point? My point is this -- if you want the advantages of what fast lenses give (low noise and shallow DOF), then get a bigger sensor system. That's a no brainer. But if you enjoy deeper DOFs, don't really care about noise, don't need more pixels, and like all the operational advantages of the 4/3 system, then get that. I mean, what does FF have that compares with the size, weight, and price of an E420 + 25 / 2.8?"

or any of the other posts by mine which I link and quote here:

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/dprban/#bashing
on the same technology there is no 'noise advantage' to smaller formats,
Yes, I was in error and cleared that up later after spending a lot of time trying to figure out why Amin's test produced the results it did.
since the light allowed through by the aperture is the same value per sq
mm of effective sensor area, the noise is the same on the same sensor
technology,
But there are two components to noise, shot and read. So, while equivalent images will have the same shot noise, the read noise is not necessarily the same, even for the same efficiency of sensor, due to different pixel counts, but that this can be evened out with NR and comparing at the same level of detail. However, what I later learned in the the test done by Amin is that the 5D had a less efficient sensor than the compact, so the greater read noise of the 5D over the Fuji compact was the reason for the more noise image.

So, are you now chastising me for having erroneously thought that smaller formats might have a noise advantage in some extreme situations? How delightfully ironic!
go edit your stuff and follow someone else around,
im not much interested in your romantic advances....
Now, now. It was you, not I, that signed "joe mama" up for that porn site using my email. Tsk, tsk. Isn't that a bit over the top, even for you?
BTW, its a wallaby...
I'll get right on it.
oh and get my rank right...
You mean this one?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=30460780

Anyway, while we're on "getting things right", do try not to confuse other people's posts with mine. I'm a bit disappointed that you can't tell the difference.

--
joe
 
Hey Rriley. Just thought I'd pop by using a friend's old account to
clear up a bit of your usual mess. No, luckyakash isn't me, nor are
many of the other IDs you've accused of being me. But, I do stay in
contact with a few people and lurk from time to time. So, let's
begin with the cleaning, eh?
well you might remember when i asked if a poster was you some time earlier, it turned out it was you, but you were not straight with me, so i bounced you

on that basis i think i can be forgiven for having doubts about your identity
and i still think im right
oh wait, let me think back
as i recall it when joseph was banned, it was for the complaints filed for
using that stuff to bash four thirds format. true or false?
That would be "false". I never bashed 4/3 -- this post sums it up
pretty nicely:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=29000993

"I suspect you would put JoeMama firmly in the troll category. I
cut for needed room

heres mine, its reduced in size to be concise
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=28598934

"But of what value is the concomitant abusive behavior engendered by (some if not most of) those threads??? It only drags the whole place down, and when it is done repeatedly, between the same few guys it really needs to be stopped because it ceases to serve public interest and becomes a battleground for a clash of the egos.

It seems silly to acquit someone of personal responsibility for fighting and general incivility (which obviously goes both ways) because their general (and redundant) point was based in fact.

It would be the same if that 4/3rds guy he would argue with was banned and subsequently had a thread eulogizing him for stating the obvious point that smaller formats tend to have more even lens coverage. It is a fact of the science, but he would sit there and go around in circles with Joe to the point where it isn't even a debate but a infantile mudslinging contest."
or any of the other posts by mine which I link and quote here:

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/dprban/#bashing
you mean that place were you ***** about you bans blaming anyone but you, whats your 50% in that Joe? Its not like its once, its what 7 times...

then theres this
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=31042395
i dont ban anyone here, he does
you wanna be unbanned, talk to him
on the same technology there is no 'noise advantage' to smaller formats,
Yes, I was in error and cleared that up later after spending a lot of
time trying to figure out why Amin's test produced the results it did.
since the light allowed through by the aperture is the same value per sq
mm of effective sensor area, the noise is the same on the same sensor
technology,
But there are two components to noise, shot and read. So, while
equivalent images will have the same shot noise, the read noise is
not necessarily the same, even for the same efficiency of sensor, due
to different pixel counts, but that this can be evened out with NR
and comparing at the same level of detail. However, what I later
learned in the the test done by Amin is that the 5D had a less
efficient sensor than the compact, so the greater read noise of the
5D over the Fuji compact was the reason for the more noise image.

So, are you now chastising me for having erroneously thought that
smaller formats might have a noise advantage in some extreme
situations? How delightfully ironic!
why not post that retraction on your page
at least it would be informative

and from Steen
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=28401655

"The way I see it, the biggest difference between FF and crop is the possibility to get ultra shallow DOF with FF if you want it. And ultra shallow DOF usually (with WA lenses) goes hand in hand with vignetting and soft corners, but that's just a fact of life, at least with the current retro-focus design of WA lenses (The EVIL might change that), so why all the fuss about it?"
BTW, its a wallaby...
I'll get right on it.
thanks

heres another, its Royal Australian Army
oh and get my rank right...
You mean this one?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=30460780

Anyway, while we're on "getting things right", do try not to confuse
other people's posts with mine. I'm a bit disappointed that you
can't tell the difference.
i was Sgt Major for 19 yrs like i wrote, but i had to make a deal with the brass to get over to Iraq II with my companies. The cutoff age for combat with us is 43, and i'm way past that. Prior to this I had turned a commission down 3 times, they told me if i wanted to go, i had to accept #3, so i did.

since you cannot/would not be aware of my rank, and im not going to tell you, i suggest you remove all reference to it.

--
Riley

When I die I want to go peacefully sleeping like my Grandfather did...
not screaming, like the passengers in his car....
 
well you might remember when i asked if a poster was you some time
earlier, it turned out it was you, but you were not straight with me,
so i bounced you
You mean when you asked Vladimir if he was "joe mama" and I said "no". Well, yeah, I was too coy, and that was my bad. He was not the "joe mama" personality since "joe mama" would not have simply walked away from the BS like Vlad would, but I did not deny he was "joesph james" -- I just walked away.
on that basis i think i can be forgiven for having doubts about your
identity
and i still think im right
Think all you like.
heres mine, its reduced in size to be concise
That's just too good a line to pass up, but I will, as "hard" as it is for me to do so. : )

But, no, I'm not interested in what the minority opinion holds:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=31080341

Pity your vote was removed. It could have been 94 to 5. But at least John King and Trapper John's posts were allowed to remain, or it would have been 94 to 2.
you mean that place were you ***** about you bans blaming anyone but
you, whats your 50% in that Joe? Its not like its once, its what 7
times...
I think you got the wrong link, if you're talking about "bitching". Let me help you:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=31193443
then theres this
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=31042395
i dont ban anyone here, he does
you wanna be unbanned, talk to him
Yeah, Phil was a real downer on "joe mama" wasn't he? Bummer. But he likes you, and your counterpart in the Canon forums, natureman. Good for you guys, bad for me. I'm sad.
why not post that retraction on your page
at least it would be informative
You mean this that has been there for quite some time now?

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/#noise

"A notable difference where differences in read noise become a major player can be seen in high ISO images where deep DOFs and high shutter speeds are important. In this situation, smaller sensors appear to have an advantage over larger sensors in terms of noise to to a higher efficiency. For example, if we were to try to achieve an equivalent image from, say, a Fuji f31 at f/2.8, 1/50, ISO 1600 using a Canon 5D, we would have to use f/13, 1/50, ISO 33000. A comparison I saw of this situation favored the compact, and has led me to the conclusion that this becomes 'significant' at around ISO 6400 for 35mm FF with modern sensors."

C'mon, man, check the link before asking for the retraction.
and from Steen
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=28401655
"The way I see it, the biggest difference between FF and crop is the
possibility to get ultra shallow DOF with FF if you want it. And
ultra shallow DOF usually (with WA lenses) goes hand in hand with
vignetting and soft corners, but that's just a fact of life, at least
with the current retro-focus design of WA lenses (The EVIL might
change that), so why all the fuss about it?"
I don't see your point. Yeah, ultra shallow DOF does go "hand in hand with vignetting and soft corners" -- is that news?
since you cannot/would not be aware of my rank, and im not going to
tell you, i suggest you remove all reference to it.
I say you claimed to have been a Sergeant Major in the Australian Army -- accurate enough in my book. At least, a lot more accurate than the cute caption you had on your pic: "have you seen that banned tosser joe mummy's ? I hear he's shooting for tranny chicks.com"

So, are you implying you were an officer? Even better. What a fine reflection on the Royal Australian Army you are.

Nice catching up with you, though.
 
well you might remember when i asked if a poster was you some time
earlier, it turned out it was you, but you were not straight with me,
so i bounced you
You mean when you asked Vladimir if he was "joe mama" and I said
"no". Well, yeah, I was too coy, and that was my bad. He was not
the "joe mama" personality since "joe mama" would not have simply
walked away from the BS like Vlad would, but I did not deny he was
"joesph james" -- I just walked away.
on that basis i think i can be forgiven for having doubts about your
identity
and i still think im right
Think all you like.
heres mine, its reduced in size to be concise
That's just too good a line to pass up, but I will, as "hard" as it
is for me to do so. : )

But, no, I'm not interested in what the minority opinion holds:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=31080341

Pity your vote was removed. It could have been 94 to 5. But at
least John King and Trapper John's posts were allowed to remain, or
it would have been 94 to 2.
but you dont know why it was removed do you
i complained against myself (and i can prove that)
then my post was removed
i think that was a novel approach worth some consideration ;)
you mean that place were you ***** about you bans blaming anyone but
you, whats your 50% in that Joe? Its not like its once, its what 7
times...
I think you got the wrong link, if you're talking about "bitching".
Let me help you:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=31193443
then theres this
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=31042395
i dont ban anyone here, he does
you wanna be unbanned, talk to him
Yeah, Phil was a real downer on "joe mama" wasn't he? Bummer. But
he likes you, and your counterpart in the Canon forums, natureman.
Good for you guys, bad for me. I'm sad.
i think he can speak for himself
kinda has already
why not post that retraction on your page
at least it would be informative
You mean this that has been there for quite some time now?

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/#noise

"A notable difference where differences in read noise become a major
clipped
C'mon, man, check the link before asking for the retraction.
i meant how you arrived at that conclusion
and from Steen
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=28401655
"The way I see it, the biggest difference between FF and crop is the
possibility to get ultra shallow DOF with FF if you want it. And
ultra shallow DOF usually (with WA lenses) goes hand in hand with
vignetting and soft corners, but that's just a fact of life, at least
with the current retro-focus design of WA lenses (The EVIL might
change that), so why all the fuss about it?"
I don't see your point. Yeah, ultra shallow DOF does go "hand in
hand with vignetting and soft corners" -- is that news?
join it to the previous

"for stating the obvious point that smaller formats tend to have more even lens coverage. It is a fact of the science, but he would sit there and go around in circles with Joe to the point where it isn't even a debate but a infantile mudslinging contest"

to put words in your mouth, you would say corners dont matter
and so it goes right...
Nice catching up with you, though.
wish i could say likewise
now you can remove all the references to me
thanks in advance....

--
Riley

When I die I want to go peacefully sleeping like my Grandfather did...
not screaming, like the passengers in his car....
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top