Small Apertures & Diffraction. Yeah, Whatever...

worrying about diffraction at the per-pixel level is practically absurd.

As was stated by someone else earlier, in reality, you will never, NEVER view the final image at the 100% level. I'm not arguing diffraction doesn't exist. I'm arguing that when viewing the whole picture the minor effects of diffraction at the per-pixel level will not be noticed, which is why using a greater DoF of f/16-22 while doing landscapes takes priority over diffraction.

Case in point:

Ever look at a pointilist painting by Seurat? I'm sure you have. It basically operates on the same concept as pixels. You can view his famous "Sunday Afternoon..." painting up close at 100%, looking at each individual dot of paint (pixel) and assessing it's quality, but you'd never see the painting as a whole. You have to stand far back to see the image created by all those paint dots. And at that viewing location, the quality of those individual paint dots is moot.



--
Insert obligatory quote here...
 
worrying about diffraction at the per-pixel level is practically absurd.

As was stated by someone else earlier, in reality, you will never,
NEVER view the final image at the 100% level.
Hmm I do, because being profoundly nearsighted, I only see stuff clearly that I am close to. I always approach anything I wish to see at a distance where my eyesight is best, which is about 10 inches.

Not that my case matters in the larger sense but it does mean your statement is not universal.

I'm not arguing
diffraction doesn't exist. I'm arguing that when viewing the whole
picture
the minor effects of diffraction at the per-pixel level will
not be noticed, which is why using a greater DoF of f/16-22 while
doing landscapes takes priority over diffraction.

Case in point:
Ever look at a pointilist painting by Seurat? I'm sure you have. It
basically operates on the same concept as pixels. You can view his
famous "Sunday Afternoon..." painting up close at 100%, looking at
each individual dot of paint (pixel) and assessing it's quality, but
you'd never see the painting as a whole. You have to stand far back
to see the image created by all those paint dots. And at that viewing
location, the quality of those individual paint dots is moot.
And this is a good argument for high IQ. I prefer paintings that are more detailed and realistic looking. I like the very fine detail found for example in a Stephen Lyman painting. It is a matter of taste. If this sort of minimalist art meets your taste, there is nothing at all wrong with that, but again, it is not universal.


--
Insert obligatory quote here...
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http://www.pbase.com/roserus/root

Ben
 
But these professionals are most probarly using professional lenses
and high quality primes. I guess that you'll not get the same
sharpness with the 18-55s or the 17-85 IS. Also notice that PP is
also a factor; unsharp mask is a well used filter to get those tack
sharp and deep landscape scenes.
I have seen reference to many of these pros using zooms. Some will say that zooms are fine, but I think thats only true if you are not looking close. At least in the case of Canon zooms.

I think this argument will always boil down to looking too close. Some want to push to the limit of IQ, others have different agendas for their photography and there are many other worthy priorities. But it is absurd to say that seeking to maximize IQ is wrong.
I guess we should not put too much into what people are stating at
public boards. Why not try it out for yourself and see what happens?
Try a f/22 wide angle shoot with your equipment and see how the
results get. :)
--
http://www.pbase.com/roserus/root

Ben
 
If you only look at the image as a whole and never look for detail down near the pixel level, why on Earth do you need more than 10MP?
worrying about diffraction at the per-pixel level is practically absurd.

As was stated by someone else earlier, in reality, you will never,
NEVER view the final image at the 100% level. I'm not arguing
diffraction doesn't exist. I'm arguing that when viewing the whole
picture
the minor effects of diffraction at the per-pixel level will
not be noticed, which is why using a greater DoF of f/16-22 while
doing landscapes takes priority over diffraction.

Case in point:
Ever look at a pointilist painting by Seurat? I'm sure you have. It
basically operates on the same concept as pixels. You can view his
famous "Sunday Afternoon..." painting up close at 100%, looking at
each individual dot of paint (pixel) and assessing it's quality, but
you'd never see the painting as a whole. You have to stand far back
to see the image created by all those paint dots. And at that viewing
location, the quality of those individual paint dots is moot.
 
worrying about diffraction at the per-pixel level is practically absurd.

As was stated by someone else earlier, in reality, you will never,
NEVER view the final image at the 100% level.
Hmm I do, because being profoundly nearsighted, I only see stuff
clearly that I am close to. I always approach anything I wish to see
at a distance where my eyesight is best, which is about 10 inches.

Not that my case matters in the larger sense but it does mean your
statement is not universal.
I think you're missing my point. If you're looking at a picture from 10 inches away, if that picture is larger than 8X10, then you can't see the picture as a whole, only the part you're looking at. When you go to a movie, do you watch the screen from five feet away? No, because you can't see the entire screen. You have to sit far enough away to see the entire screen. It's the same with pictures. If you print it large, you have to stand back farther to see the whole picture... otherwise you're just looking at individual pixels. You know, the whole forest-trees cliche?
I'm not arguing
diffraction doesn't exist. I'm arguing that when viewing the whole
picture
the minor effects of diffraction at the per-pixel level will
not be noticed, which is why using a greater DoF of f/16-22 while
doing landscapes takes priority over diffraction.

Case in point:
Ever look at a pointilist painting by Seurat? I'm sure you have. It
basically operates on the same concept as pixels. You can view his
famous "Sunday Afternoon..." painting up close at 100%, looking at
each individual dot of paint (pixel) and assessing it's quality, but
you'd never see the painting as a whole. You have to stand far back
to see the image created by all those paint dots. And at that viewing
location, the quality of those individual paint dots is moot.
And this is a good argument for high IQ. I prefer paintings that are
more detailed and realistic looking. I like the very fine detail
found for example in a Stephen Lyman painting. It is a matter of
taste. If this sort of minimalist art meets your taste, there is
nothing at all wrong with that, but again, it is not universal.
Again, missing my point. Photos from a digital camera work on the same level as Seurat's paintings. Paint dots = pixels. When you look at his work, can you see the entire image by looking at the paint dots individually? No, you can't. You have to stand back far enough that all those individual dots converge into a cohesive picture. At that viewing position, you can no longer see the quality of each individual paint dot. It's the same with digital images. The larger you print a photo, the farther back you have to stand to see it. At that point, diffraction and pixel quality is negligible.

Example (again):
If you're up close inspecting the dots on this guy's face



you're not seeing the entire image for what it is



The same is true with regard to inspecting the minor effects of diffraction at the pixel level.

--
Insert obligatory quote here...
 
Diffraction applies to 35mm film in the same way as digital. Film doesn't alter physics. The reason diffraction is more of a concern now is because one can pixel peep a lot easier with digital. But shoot some film, scan it and then pixel peep and you'll see the effects of diffraction just the same.
If you look closely you will find that many of landscape photographs
shown in magazines like Outdoor Photography are shot using 35mm film.
The diffraction limitations apply to DSLRs.

--
Jeff Lynch
Serious Amateur Photography
http://jefflynchdev.wordpress.com
--
-Scott
http://www.flickr.com/photos/redteg94/
 
If you only look at the image as a whole and never look for detail
down near the pixel level, why on Earth do you need more than 10MP?
Or even 3 mpixels. I got pretty good results at 8x10 with my old Nikon 990. Better than with my Nikon FE film camera. That was because the digital has AF.

But even with my poor eyes, I can still see the difference on a 16x24 print when I stand back. I can't nail it until I get close, but the difference is there.

I think 16x24 is about the largest optimum size for a 21mpixel camera. I don't like to use uprezzing for prints. And if you print smaller, you probably don't need 21 mpixels.

http://www.pbase.com/roserus/root

Ben
 
Hi Blake, just FYI, you can read the actual focal length on your FZ18
on the front of the lens. It's a 4.8-86.4mm lens. And BTW, you can't
get f/2.8 on the long end of your lens, I believe the max aperture is
f/4.4 at the long end.

--
-Scott
http://www.flickr.com/photos/redteg94/
I know but, I couldn't remember what it was. 4.4 sounds about right anyway I was just making the point that P&S specs mix their parameters.
--
Blake in Vancouver
http://flickr.com/photos/28305360@N00/

Panasonic Stuff, Canon Stuff. Mac Stuff & annoying PC & Windows Immobile PDA POS.
 
If you only look at the image as a whole and never look for detail
down near the pixel level, why on Earth do you need more than 10MP?
  • Micro adjustment
  • Better LCD
  • Better live view focusing
  • you can print larger with 15MP
I completely agree with your first 3 points, but if you're saying that you're going to print large enough so that you can see the difference between 15 and 10MP you are implicitly stating that pixel level sharpness, and hence potential diffraction effects thereon, actually DOES matter to you.
 
If you only look at the image as a whole and never look for detail
down near the pixel level, why on Earth do you need more than 10MP?
  • Micro adjustment
  • Better LCD
  • Better live view focusing
  • you can print larger with 15MP
I completely agree with your first 3 points, but if you're saying
that you're going to print large enough so that you can see the
difference between 15 and 10MP you are implicitly stating that pixel
level sharpness, and hence potential diffraction effects thereon,
actually DOES matter to you.
I knew you were trying to find contradiction in my listing 15MP as a benefit. But there is no such thing as "pixel level sharpness." A pixel is one square containing color. How do you make one pixel sharp? You can't. It's a square. I would prefer 15 million squares over 10 million because I could print 50% larger at the same quality.

Diffraction has to do with the lens, not the camera.

--
Insert obligatory quote here...
 
It's not 50% larger because of two reasons

1 Pixel counts are quoted as the total number, ie.e the mp count increases as a square law so 15mp is less than 50% more than 10mp, it is @ 22% go do the actual maths on the sensor dimensions

2 As you cram more pixels in you get into noticing the resolving limits of the lens more.

So in real world resolvable detail terms, its less than 20% difference in print size.
 
It's not 50% larger because of two reasons

1 Pixel counts are quoted as the total number, ie.e the mp count
increases as a square law so 15mp is less than 50% more than 10mp, it
is @ 22% go do the actual maths on the sensor dimensions

2 As you cram more pixels in you get into noticing the resolving
limits of the lens more.

So in real world resolvable detail terms, its less than 20%
difference in print size.
--
When it comes to printing, a pixel is a pixel. Pixel dimensions on the sensor don't matter (though it does with regard to light capturing efficiency and ISO). It doesn't matter how large or small the pixel sizes are on the different sensors. The entire 36x24mm sensor of a 5D could be only one pixel. And on the computer screen, as well as photo paper, it would only be one, very very tiny square. In printing terms, 15MP is 50% larger than 10MP. How is 5MP not 50% of 10MP?



--
Insert obligatory quote here...
 
If you only look at the image as a whole and never look for detail
down near the pixel level, why on Earth do you need more than 10MP?
  • Micro adjustment
  • Better LCD
  • Better live view focusing
  • you can print larger with 15MP
I completely agree with your first 3 points, but if you're saying
that you're going to print large enough so that you can see the
difference between 15 and 10MP you are implicitly stating that pixel
level sharpness, and hence potential diffraction effects thereon,
actually DOES matter to you.
I knew you were trying to find contradiction in my listing 15MP as a
benefit. But there is no such thing as "pixel level sharpness." A
pixel is one square containing color. How do you make one pixel
sharp? You can't. It's a square. I would prefer 15 million squares
over 10 million because I could print 50% larger at the same quality.

Diffraction has to do with the lens, not the camera.

--
Insert obligatory quote here...
You do present a logical inconsistency here. Given the premise that you view larger prints from further away, you do not need the extra pixels to make larger prints with the same perceived quality: you would see the same level of detail from your 40D at any print size. By increasing the number of pixels, you are increasing the extent to which you can get closer to the print and still be satisfied with the level of detail. This is at odds with your assertion that one should not get closer to prints (or paintings) to assess the quality.

Not saying that you shouldn't aspire to greater print quality, but going from 10 to 15 mp in order to print bigger is inconsistent with your pointillist painting demonstration.
 
It is "funny" to see all the misunderstandings and confusion when it comes to what more pixels brings.

Of course it will bring
  • higher resolution
  • higher demand on the lens if you are pixel peeping.
  • bigger prints if not the lens is the limiting factor.
  • more obvious diffraction effects if you are using the same lens AND you are pixel peeping.
Diffraction is not a new thing.... pixel peeping is!!

I have perfect eyes, and going close to the screen with a magnifying glass I can see that even a 100% crop of any picture, the pixels consists of red, green and blue !! Does that mean anything??

Noise is another thing, but with more pixels the finer the grains will be.
 
Another thing that could be causing this extreme sharpness and DoF: I've heard that some are using focus bracketing. I'm not sure how this works since I'm not using this technique. Not yet, anyway. It's about taking several shots of the same scene when using a steady tripod and focusing on e.g. three different places; close, middle and far away. I guess that here is where the focus points in a DSLR could come in handy. Then combine the sharp images together in PP.
 
You do present a logical inconsistency here. Given the premise that
you view larger prints from further away, you do not need the extra
pixels to make larger prints with the same perceived quality: you
would see the same level of detail from your 40D at any print size.
Not true. If I print a 10MP image at say 6ft x 4ft, and a 15MP image at 6ft x 4ft, the individual pixels of the 10MP print will be stretched larger than the 15MP image's pixels, therefore there's less resolution. More small pixels on a print is better than less big pixels for resolution. If I were to print a 10MP at 6ft x 4ft, and view at a distance of 10ft, keeping pixel sizes on the prints identical in size, I could then print a 15MP image to 9ft x 6ft, viewing at a distance of 15ft, the two pictures would look the same. Shrinking the 15MP picture down to 6ft by 4ft would contain more detail and would be able to view at 10ft.
By increasing the number of pixels, you are increasing the extent to
which you can get closer to the print and still be satisfied with the
level of detail.
Only if you're printing the 10MP and 15MP image at the same exact size would you notice a sharper 15MP image. If you print keeping pixel sizes equal, then there's basically no difference in sharpness because a pixel itself cannot be sharp - it's a square. But having 50% more squares means I can print 50% larger and maintain the same level of detail.
This is at odds with your assertion that one should
not get closer to prints (or paintings) to assess the quality.
No it's not. The larger the picture hanging on the wall, the farther back you have to stand to view it as a whole. Do you assess Seurat's painting by looking at the quality of each individual paint dot? No. You assess his painting by standing back and seeing how all those dots come together into one coherent image. Many of his paint dots are smeared and non-circular when you view up close (equiv of diffraction) but when standing back at a distance to view the whole painting, you don't see the individual paint dots.
Not saying that you shouldn't aspire to greater print quality, but
going from 10 to 15 mp in order to print bigger is inconsistent with
your pointillist painting demonstration.
No it's not. If Seurat were to add 50% more paint dots to his painting, keeping the SIZE of the PAINT DOTS (pixels) the same, his painting would then be 50% larger. Just like a pixel-based image.

--
Insert obligatory quote here...
 
If I were to print a 10MP at 6ft x 4ft, and
view at a distance of 10ft, keeping pixel sizes on the prints
identical in size, I could then print a 15MP image to 9ft x 6ft,
viewing at a distance of 15ft, the two pictures would look the same.
Wrong. The further away from the print you stand, the less "dots" within a given print area are needed to keep the overall appearance of detail and sharpness the same. This is due to the fact that you can only perceive two dots as being separate if there's sufficient angular separation between them, i.e. your visual acuity is limited. As you increase your print size from a 10 mp file and simultaneously stand further back to maintain the area that the print occupies within your field of vision constant, it simply does not matter how large you print. You can make billboard sized prints and perceive the same quality as you would with an 8"x10", because you'll be standing hundreds of feet away and are thus unable to detect the loss of detail per print area . Incidentally, this is why billboards have been made from 3 mp images and they still look acceptable. It's only when you get close that you see the lack of detail.
This is at odds with your assertion that one should
not get closer to prints (or paintings) to assess the quality.
No it's not. The larger the picture hanging on the wall, the farther
back you have to stand to view it as a whole. Do you assess Seurat's
painting by looking at the quality of each individual paint dot? No.
You assess his painting by standing back and seeing how all those
dots come together into one coherent image. Many of his paint dots
are smeared and non-circular when you view up close (equiv of
diffraction) but when standing back at a distance to view the whole
painting, you don't see the individual paint dots.
I'm not disputing anything you're saying here. But that's where the logical inconsistency comes from: if you always view a picture so that it occupies the same field of view (i.e. standing back and seeing all those dots come together into one coherent image), the number of dots can remain constant and it doesn't matter how large the picture is made. It will appear the same. Therefore you do not need more megapixels, or dots, to make a picture larger. The ONLY reason for needing more megapixels to increase your print size is to make a print that can withstand closer scrutiny.
Not saying that you shouldn't aspire to greater print quality, but
going from 10 to 15 mp in order to print bigger is inconsistent with
your pointillist painting demonstration.
No it's not. If Seurat were to add 50% more paint dots to his
painting, keeping the SIZE of the PAINT DOTS (pixels) the same, his
painting would then be 50% larger. Just like a pixel-based image.
You don't need to keep the size of the paint dots the same and increase their number, if you stand back as the size of the painting is increased; you only need the same number of dots for any painting size. Because your visual acuity is limited, the painting will ALWAYS appear the same under these circumstances.
 
It depends what format they were shooting.

If you shoot cropped sensor Canon 1.6x DSLRs you would generally avoid going smaller than f/8 if you are concerned with image sharpness and want to avoid diffraction blur.

If you shoot a full frame DSLR or 35mm SLR you can shoot at f/16 with essentially no visible diffraction blur in even a very large print.

If you shoot mediium format of large format then you can - and often must - shoot at considerably smaller apertures and in these formats diffraction blur won't be an issue.

In addition there are certain situations in which choosing a "less sharp aperture" can contribute to a photograph that appears sharper or plenty sharp. I won't go into the details here, but let's just say that a) the degradation of IQ due to diffraction blur at small apertures is a real thing, b) the point at which the diffraction blur becomes an issue is different for different formats, c) this issue must often be balanced against other issues that contribute to the overall quality of the image, d) the final form of the photo (web, large print, etc.) makes a difference in how these factors are weighed.

Understanding diffraction blur and other technical issues is important to producing photographs that have the aesthetic impact you are aiming for. It is not just a matter of "blah, blah, blah..."

UPDATE: Oh, God, I just read through some of the follow-up posts in this thread. Yes, indeed, this topic brings out some of the most ill-informed and bizarre opinions of any forum topic - well, maybe excepting the boring Nikon/Canon battles.

There is no connection between photosite density and diffraction blur. If you took a 12MP full frame camera and put a 50mm lens on it and made a photograph at, say, f11 and then repeated the process exactly except for using a 21MP camera, prints made from both photographs at a given size would exhibit EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF DIFFRACTION BLUR. (You would be right to point out that the higher photosite density photograph would produce a more accurate rendition of the blur, but there would be the same amount. To state otherwise betrays a misunderstanding of how digital sampling works.)

There are several possible reasons to want to increase photosite density in a given format. (Dealing with diffraction is not one of them.) To the extent that ppi is an issue with very large prints you could push the upper prints size boundary a bit more - but be aware that this requires extraordinarily good technique and equipment and that we are talking about very big prints. Most often it is not ppi/resolution that limits your ability to make a very large print - instead it is more likely that focus accuracy, camera stability, etc will limit you first.

Another potential benefit from higher photosite density is to create smoother transitions between tonal/color values.

It is important to keep in mind that to a certain extent this can become a "how may angels dance on the head of the pin" argument unless you make very large prints, use excellent equipment, and always shoot with impeccable technique. Oh, and make interesting photographs... ;-)

Dan
Something just dawned on me.

As I'm looking through my various photography magazines, admiring the
gorgeous landscape photos, I noticed almost every one of them has
been shot at apertures between f/16 and f/22. They are completely
sharp, beautifully composed, oh... and all shot by professionals.

Yet on these forums, everybody whines and complains about diffraction
at small apertures. "Your photos won't be sharp at f/22!" "Use a
wider aperture or it will be blurry!" Blah blah blah. Apparently, the
pros in these magazines don't agree. After all, they're out actually
taking photos (and getting paid for it) instead of pixel peeping and
coming here to whine about it.

--
Insert obligatory quote here...
--
---
G Dan Mitchell - SF Bay Area, California, USA
Blog & Gallery: http://www.gdanmitchell.com/
IM: gdanmitchell

Gear List: Cup, spoon, chewing gum, old shoe laces, spare change, eyeballs, bag of nuts.
 

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