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Revolutionary Innovation: Panansonic Lumix DMC-G1

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Erwin Buske said:
JoeDaBassPlayer said:
--
Yes, it is new and different but I have yet to see an improvement
over existing, small APS DSLR's.
Click to expand...
In terms of camera size the G1 is as small as the smallest available
DSLR. Where the weight savings will be is in the lenses. There are
not many now, but at least the possibility is there that high quality
lenses can be developed that are about 25% of the weight of their
equivalent full fram counterparts. Not only will they way less, they
will be smaller. Why? Because the following reasons: (1) the
sensor is smaller, (2) the attachment area is smaller, (3) superior
designs that save weight are possible becuase weight increasing
compromises and optical compromises (retrofocus designs) are not
needed to clear the space occupied by a reflex mirror. This is a
fact and explains why 35 MM Film rangefinder cameras are smaller than
their counterparts. The SLR lens design was a huge compromise from
the get go.

--
Erwin
Click to expand...
--

Time will tell what lenses will come out. So far with 4/3, I have seen a normal prime, some 50 macros and nothing much else in the sub tele range primes except a fisheye.

At least in an APS DSLR, I can get a similar body size and small primes from 15, 21, 35, 40, 43 and 70mm, all stabilized.
 
BIJ001 said:
Interesting and sad pieces of information, thanks, Linuxworks!
Click to expand...
its not happy news. and I used to LOVE pany cams.

in fact, I did a battery study of pany cam batts a few years ago:

http://www.netstuff.org/hardware_projects/battery/graphs/

so I'm well aware of how cheap the aftermarket batts are. still, its the USER'S CHOICE and not the vendor's, where he buys his accessories.

I would have no problem with pany even taking my test data and using it to 'scare' people into buying their batts. fine.

but its quite another to LOCK THEM OUT via tech means.

the ebay/hk batts are like $5 each and while they run about 2/3 as long as the 'good' oem's, they are 1/10 the price!

come on pany, we know what you're trying to do here ;(

--
Bryan
(pic stream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works ) ~
 
Do you need any more recommendation than this?

Also, remember that digital cameras have very few parts that are a positive legacy from the SLR era where Canon/Nikon were at the forefront. Innovative electronics companies such as Sony and Panasonic should rightly be able to show them a thing or two that they have expertise in in the digital realm.

Panasonic compacts have taken the lead in almost every category - check dpreview's own group tests and others. Also, the LX3 has become the new benchmark for high-end compacts.

It would seem that the G1 is following the same trend. It uses the same CCD as it's other partners (Olympus, Leica) but it produces better results in the Panasonic as far as noise and general IQ goes.

Cheers
 
linuxworks said:
note that this marks the first (I believe) in pany's digicam series
to use CODED LOCKED BATTERIES.
Click to expand...
Have there been any attempts to duplicate the functionality of the lockout code chips? This sounds like the same thing that Lexmark tried to do with toner cartridges. A third party manufacturer created functional equivalents to the Lexmark lockout chips. Lexmark sued. And Lexmark decisively lost (after several rounds of appeals.)

Lexmark Int'l v. Static Control Components
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexmark_Int%27l_v._Static_Control_Components

IANAL, but it looks to me like there is no legal impediment to third party battery companies reverse engineering lockout chips. Based on the precedent that was set in the Lexmark case.

Wayne
 
foreign companies will reverse engineer things. they are beyond US law.

I'd like to see a US company try this. I doubt they'd want to risk being sued.

they put encryption chips to make money. people going around them could be seen as a threat to their profit base. is pany going to just take that sitting down? not likely!

and if this really is an encryption chip then it won't be so easy for manuf's to just 'get access' to the chips - you don't just run down to radio shack or digikey.com and order such things...

for example, even if I wanted to BUY a DTS decoder chip (for home theater) they're locked up tight and you have to sign a license (expensive, from what I hear) to get access to BUYING the chips. or you buy product that has the chip and take the chip out (not cost effective).

control over 'sensitive' chips is common. you'd think they would do all they can to protect the golden goose.

the whole thing stinks. its layers of 'stuff' that add NO value to us, the users.

--
Bryan
(pic stream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works ) ~
 
Aftermarket batteries have been known to have some pretty poor quality, and the last thing you want is damage to your camera because you purchased a "cheap" aftermarket battery that cannot deal with the requirements of the camera. Panasonic is likely positioning themselves to keep quality high and repair costs low. They so far have a pretty good reputation for low failure rates on their digicams.

If I were making digicams, I would absolutely do the same, or I would partner with a 3rd-party vendor who could make aftermarket batteries that I approved and then provide chips for.

Mac users don't seem to gripe about the same? Only certain hardware works with their OS, yet they are willing to shell out the premium for an inflexible (hardware-wise) system. Not saying there is anything wrong with this either, just the complaining.

--
My pictures...
http://12.168.34.68/photos/default.asp
http://www.markwyman.com/photos/default.asp
 
Your annoyed because the premium battery cost? Do you purchase software with a license agreement? Man, this has to bee the silliest excuse to not like a product/company I have heard of!

Think of the chip as a license to assure that the battery that goes in the G1 actually operates the camera/lens as expected. The G1 may have some pretty stringent requirements for surge currents to drive all of the fancy hardware inside from such a small battery.

God forbid if they want to keep cheap incapable batteries out of the G1 to prevent damage, odd performance, and returns.

Now if they charged you $0.05 every time you took a picture because of licensing fees for other photographers who use the G1 and you are stealing photons from them, then I would understand you being annoyed. Oh, wait, that already happens with CDr and DVDr media.

--
My pictures...
http://12.168.34.68/photos/default.asp
http://www.markwyman.com/photos/default.asp
 
linuxworks said:
foreign companies will reverse engineer things. they are beyond US law.

I'd like to see a US company try this. I doubt they'd want to risk
being sued.
Click to expand...
The Lexmark case was US law. Lexmark lost decisively. Did you also look at the Ars Technica commentary that was linked from the Wiki summary I linked to in my previous post?

"Judge Merritt in his concurring opinion spoke out strongly against the use of the DMCA as a monopolist's tool."

"By contrast, Lexmark would have us read this statute in such a way that any time a manufacturer intentionally circumvents any technological measure and accesses a protected work it necessarily violates the statute regardless of its purpose. Such a reading would ignore the precise language for the purpose of as well as the main point of the DMCA to prohibit the pirating of copyright-protected works such as movies, music, and computer programs. If we were to adopt Lexmark's reading of the statute, manufacturers could potentially create monopolies for replacement parts simply by using similar, but more creative, lock-out codes."
http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/02/4636.ars

The first paragraph is Ars Technica. The second paragraph is a direct quote from the ruling. My interpretation of this section of the ruling is that lock-out codes are themselves prohibited, because the DMCA was written to specifically exempt lock-out code type devices. So Panasonic is the one that is in legal jeopardy. (If this precedent stands and isn't overturned in some higher court.)

Wayne
 
I have owned the G1 since October (Yes, I paid the heavy premium to be an early adopter) and I love the little guy. Tons of keepers, especially since I take the camera with me just about everywhere I go, much like my son's blankie.

Buying it at the price premium hurt, especially since I have been downsized, but after using it for several months now I have to say: "It is absolutely worth it".

It is the MOST fun camera I have ever owned. Well, this is relative, I came from the Sony R1, V1, and some film cameras before that.

It is not the perfect cam, I really wish it did better in very low light, but with adapters you and fit almost any lens, and there are some fine examples from a Canon F1.2 50mm on the G1 which are impressive.

That is the REAL charm of the G1; ability to manually focus with the EVF with a magnified view. You have to try it, then you will be resurrecting all of your old lenses to play with (I haven't been able to, my budget for buying said adapters has dried up). It really works VERY well.

Combined with the kit lens and the zoom lens are both fantastic values, and to have IS in-lens to boot is a bonus. I can fault neither of them for most subjects apart from being a little slow for exposure. But I would rather have slow than bulky. Bulky means I just wont take it with me all of the time.

And for those griping about price? Go shopping. Many people have purchased the G1+Kit for

Anyhow, the primary points of this camera are: Fun, size, and quality are all equally balanced well to make for an excellent little package.

I could go on, but it would sound like gushing.

Now with that said, I would live to have a FF camera for doing noise-free night shots like lightning and fireflies, but I guess I just have to make the G1 work to its limits.

--
My pictures...
http://12.168.34.68/photos/default.asp
http://www.markwyman.com/photos/default.asp
 
liquidsquid said:
Aftermarket batteries have been known to have some pretty poor
quality, and the last thing you want is damage to your camera because
you purchased a "cheap" aftermarket battery that cannot deal with the
requirements of the camera.
Click to expand...
FUD. but not reality. sorry, but thanks for playing.

this is a cash grab. 100% cash grab. attribute no other motive.

pany is not our nanny.

(england is)

lol ;)

--
Bryan
(pic stream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works ) ~
 
liquidsquid said:
Your annoyed because the premium battery cost?
Click to expand...
if that's all you got from what I wrote, you missed more than half of it.

costs, my friend, are up and down the 'stack' when you choose this kind of design.

we consumers end up paying for this and yet there is no true value-add for our money.

this is the heart of my issue. its not about safety - even their 'good' batteries have had oem recalls!
liquidsquid said:
Think of the chip as a license to assure that the battery that goes
in the G1 actually operates the camera/lens as expected.
Click to expand...
uhm, no.

you can try to play devil's advocate but those of us in the electronics field know a bit more about this deception. we can see right thru it.

this isn't a delorean that is supposed to hit 88mph and needs special 'fuel' (lol).

ITS JUST A CAMERA.

the governments are scaring the people with 'its for your safety!' and they get away with all kinds of trampling of rights.

basically, pany is trying to bank on the fear-card.

very distasteful on pany's part. they must have hired a new marketing guy who came up with this bad idea since all previous pany cams did not have this 'feature' and I'm not aware of a single pany cam blowing up and being reported int he ptf. if it did happen, it WOULD have been reported there, I have no doubt about that.

--
Bryan
(pic stream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works ) ~
 
liquidsquid said:
I have owned the G1 since October (Yes, I paid the heavy premium to
be an early adopter) and I love the little guy. Tons of keepers,
especially since I take the camera with me just about everywhere I
go, much like my son's blankie.

Buying it at the price premium hurt, especially since I have been
downsized, but after using it for several months now I have to say:
"It is absolutely worth it".

It is the MOST fun camera I have ever owned. Well, this is relative,
I came from the Sony R1, V1, and some film cameras before that.

It is not the perfect cam, I really wish it did better in very low
light, but with adapters you and fit almost any lens, and there are
some fine examples from a Canon F1.2 50mm on the G1 which are
impressive.

That is the REAL charm of the G1; ability to manually focus with the
EVF with a magnified view. You have to try it, then you will be
resurrecting all of your old lenses to play with (I haven't been able
to, my budget for buying said adapters has dried up). It really works
VERY well.

Combined with the kit lens and the zoom lens are both fantastic
values, and to have IS in-lens to boot is a bonus. I can fault
neither of them for most subjects apart from being a little slow for
exposure. But I would rather have slow than bulky. Bulky means I just
wont take it with me all of the time.

And for those griping about price? Go shopping. Many people have
purchased the G1+Kit for
where you can get them. One person claimed they got it new with both
lenses for
than I paid for it.

Anyhow, the primary points of this camera are: Fun, size, and quality
are all equally balanced well to make for an excellent little package.

I could go on, but it would sound like gushing.

Now with that said, I would live to have a FF camera for doing
noise-free night shots like lightning and fireflies, but I guess I
just have to make the G1 work to its limits.

--
My pictures...
http://12.168.34.68/photos/default.asp
http://www.markwyman.com/photos/default.asp
Click to expand...
Thanks for your contribution. Our paths sound similar. I am also thinking about moviing to a two camera systems, (1) Micro 4/3, and (2) Full Frame or perhaps even medium format (a new Nikon MX). Then the cameras would be clearly different in their use and application. The first fun, flexible, take withyou at all times, the other more serious for work that is deliberate (going back to a well know location under the most ideal conditions.
--
Erwin
 
I hate to tell you, but a big part of my career is embedded design, not taking pictures. I am more than familiar with battery designs, limitations, and the associated hardware than you are assuming.

The G1 is unusual in the regard of having two high-speed massively parallel processors running at the same time inside, one for the live view, and one for normal picture taking and other processing. The live view processing is impressive unto itself, but lets not go there... whatever the case there must be significant power requirements to support this processing. The camera is small, so a compact battery must be used.

One of the limitations on the life of a LiON battery is instantaneous surge current being requested. Large surges, such in the multiple amp range shortens the battery's life span considerably if not designed for it. This is usually mitigated by using a large storage capacitor along with the battery so the capacitor sources the current peaks, while the battery is left to chug along at a more average current.

Say for example the G1 surge currents are of longer duration than a practically-sized capacitor can provide and still fit inside of the G1. The larger requirements now force you to make a better battery that can withstand this demand. Perhaps Panasonic has found that 3rd party batteries were not up to the task of running the camera in a stable fashion, or the capacitor is embedded in the battery instead of the camera to save space. Perhaps also they needed to monitor charge and discharge rates and report it back to the camera's OS. This all means that you cannot stuff a standard non-intelligent battery in the G1 and hope that it works.

Besides lifespan, if the battery cannot provide the voltage at the required current (power) during these surges, the processors and memory are in jeopardy of resetting or corrupting data. LiON batteries typically have current limiters built in, and this design may require special allowances for greater current during short durations, so it's limiter may need to be more intelligent and still deal with international regulations on LiON batteries.

Been there, done that.

A LiON battery without protection can provide a heck of a lot of power, to the point of being very dangerous. No need to explode or catch on fire if you accidentally short one out, so protection is a must. Assuredly this "chip" is to provide some level of safety, especially for international shipping.

In all, second-guessing Panasonic's reasons for "chipping" the battery are all but a practice in guess-work. Assuredly Panasonic wants to make money as well, but I cannot imagine Panasonic going through great pains of chipping a battery to make a tad more money off of batteries that only fit in one camera. The effort and money required to design such a thing would NEVER pay back for the amount of sales of the G1 they will likely get.

So to the other guy who chimes in as FUD, stick it in your ear.

-Mark

--
My pictures...
http://12.168.34.68/photos/default.asp
http://www.markwyman.com/photos/default.asp
 
nice try.

so according to your thinking, the fact that their first gen attempt was power hungry, THAT gives them reason to chip our batts.

again, nice try but I see right thru this.

I also do embedded work (and hardware design) and there are ways to have storage in dc/dc converters (power suplies are not ONLY batteries, my friend) to overcome peaks or burstiness.

this is a fail in your attempt to tech-explain what is STILL a business cash grab.

"our power supply was not efficient and our cpus took too much power. lets encrypt the batteries!"

yeah. good explanation.

--
Bryan
(pic stream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works ) ~
 
liquidsquid said:
A LiON battery without protection can provide a heck of a lot of
power, to the point of being very dangerous.
Click to expand...
and yet we've had YEARS of pany batts as well as other brands and yet its not at all widespread that they do this chipping stuff.

so, there goes that argument of yours.
liquidsquid said:
No need to explode or
catch on fire if you accidentally short one out, so protection is a
must.
Click to expand...
protection != encryption.

(are you sure you do embedded work?)
liquidsquid said:
Assuredly this "chip" is to provide some level of safety,
especially for international shipping.
Click to expand...
oh yeah, the shippers will only ship the 'safe' encrypted batts.

where do you GET this stuff from? do you just make it up as you go along?

your arguement was about burstiness and the ability of the batt to supply huge surge currents on demand; how does this affect the static shelf-safety or ship-safety of a battery?

it doesn't! this argument of yours also makes no sense.
liquidsquid said:
In all, second-guessing Panasonic's reasons for "chipping" the
battery are all but a practice in guess-work.
Click to expand...
we can make pretty good guesses about their motivations. its not hard. follow the dollars!

since they won't come clean with us, directly (pany is NOT an open company by any means!) we are only left to guess.

--
Bryan
(pic stream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works ) ~
 
It sounds like from your analysis that use of a proprietary battery may have more to do with ensuring the proper operation of the camera (reduces warranty risk) than a scheme to generate more revenue. The micro 4/3 concept anticipates at least one other manufactuer making lenses, so if this carries forward to batteries I I doubt Panny's movitvation is more revenue. Personally I only buy batteries from the OEM with all of my cameras.
--
Erwin
 
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