New Fuji F200 EXR vs LX3

I've been thinking about this new sensor - it is potentially a great idea of using the full 12mps for full resolution, but when light is low, they effectively switch to 6mps and "double up" the photodiodes to capture more light for each pixel.

But I seem to remember fuji having a similar sensor a few years ago for the F700, where they effectively converted a 3mp sensor into a 6mp sensor by adding a secondary lens to each photodiode - not sure how successful that experiment was though, but I do remember them claiming a 6mp camera when in fact it was really still a 3mp camera

--
'100% of the shots you don't take don't go in' -
 
Plus the small detail that there's no formal standard to determine it
as there is with film. Complaining about the stated ISO is not
entirely meaningless but it comes pretty damned close.
I just find it amusing that the G1 is hailed as being more sensitive..

It's a notable drum bashing sound for pannie fans. But when the
tables are turned (lx-3 not as sensitive, and fisheye optics,
cleverly corrected) it's sssshhhhhhh, say nothing!
You are of course right Barry. I never cease to be amazed at the amount of trivia used as ammunition in the "mine is better than yours" game that dominates some of the forums.

A decade or so ago when Cosina introduced their rangefinder cameras and lenses I recall having a discussion with a diehard Leica users about the then new Voigtlander 50/1.5 Nokton which he off-handedly had dismissed as a piece of Cosina junk "probably made out of recycled coke bottles", no match for the sharpness of his Summilux. I pointed out that when tested the Nokton was actually sharper wide open than his pre-ASPH Summilux 50/1.4, to which he replied that it was obviously "too sharp" to be any good.

Some things never change when it comes to trying to have a sensible discussion with a brand-fanatic.

--
John Bean [GMT]

 
Here is what I expect from what I've learned about it so far:

The Wide DR mode reads half of the pixels early (after only 1/8 of the time). This makes them 3 stops less sensitive, giving three stops extra highlight headroom. But since 44% of the photons are wasted this way, the cost is more photon noise.

The tow kinds of pixels will register different images spatially when shooting something that causes motion blur. This 'd expect to give a front-curtain like ghosting.

The other two modes won't waste any photons, but the gain from binning is yet to be proven. It could be anything from zero to a factor sqrt(2) gain depending on the particular implementation. Nothing to threaten the low light capability of the LX3.

The unusal colour filter layout could cause demosaicing artefacts.

Interesting innovation anyway, could be very good for high DR.

Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden
 
Doesn't have a hot shoe and Leica lens.
Why does it matter if it has a "Leica" lens or not? There are a lots of great lenses being made by a lot of companies other than Leica.

Besides, I seriously doubt that Leica is even doing any QA on the LX3 lenses, let along building them. The LX3's lens is a far cry from the lenses Leica actually builds for its M mount.

larsbc
 
so the there are lots of great lenses being made by companies other than leica, er except the lens made by lieca for the LX3?

I don't know why people feel the need to slag off the LX3, its a decent camera and lots of people are very happy about that - why do you feel the need to criticise them for liking it?
Doesn't have a hot shoe and Leica lens.
Why does it matter if it has a "Leica" lens or not? There are a lots
of great lenses being made by a lot of companies other than Leica.

Besides, I seriously doubt that Leica is even doing any QA on the LX3
lenses, let along building them. The LX3's lens is a far cry from
the lenses Leica actually builds for its M mount.

larsbc
--
'100% of the shots you don't take don't go in' -
Duncan Ferguson
 
...
Oh BTW, I keep reading posts about the LX-3 ISO values being grossly
overstated (in other words not accurate, DXo tests of something like
it) So maybe the speed difference won't be as massive as some suggest
(if fuji do accurate ISO values)
There were a number of threads about this at the end of 2008. In fact, the actual ISO values of the LX3 in the field seem to be pretty close to the nominal values. I compared images from this site and from Imaging Resource taken with the LX3 and the Canon G10. Photos of studio scenes taken with the same exposure settings (f-stop, shutter speed, and ISO) by the two cameras are within about 0.1 stop of each other in actual exposure.

The ISO that we experience in the field is after in-camera or PP raw conversion. DxO Labs, as I understand their testing protocols, measures ISO from raw files prior to conversion. (Also, they may have made a mistake with the LX3's sensitivity measurements.) I don't believe that their results have any practical significance.
And the mega distortion lx-3 lens, is corrected in software..
...
Which is OK, if it does not cause a deterioration in final image quality. I am not saying that it doesn't, but I have not seen it yet.

Jeff
--
Whatever it is, this is it.
 
LiteFast wrote:
[snip]
What we really need is an enthusiast P&S that gives us an honest base
ISO with no boost. It might be 25, or maybe even 12, but unless you
never go outside during the day there will be plenty of times when
you could shoot just fine with that low an ISO. This is the last
major hurdle keeping P&S IQ from matching DSLR IQ. The two camera
types could produce the same IQ except the DSLRs shooting in 3 or 4
stops lower light. The irony is that the Panasonic could probably do
this for the LX3 with a simple firmware change. v1.3?
I don't think you'll get the same image quality. P&S sensors are still limited in dynamic range compared to the larger DSLR sensors.

larsbc
 
I must agree.

Only been around photography for 2 years so maybe I don't have the history to really see it as it is but this "mine is better than yours" attitude does seem prevalent around here parts, though some forums are worse than others.

I check the Panasonic/Pentax/Canon boards frequently and the others sporadicly and the arguments of everyone trying to defend their cameras are at times annoying.

I hope Fuji succeeds with their new cam as that will only spur on more innovations for everyone.

(note: I suppose this attitude is everywhere from cars, computers...to you name it...)
--
Hubert

My cameras TZ3, recently broken Konica Auto S2, recently bough K1000



http://www.flickr.com/photos/peppermonkey/
 
Doesn't have a hot shoe and Leica lens.
Why does it matter if it has a "Leica" lens or not? There are a lots
of great lenses being made by a lot of companies other than Leica.

Besides, I seriously doubt that Leica is even doing any QA on the LX3
lenses, let along building them. The LX3's lens is a far cry from
the lenses Leica actually builds for its M mount.
so the there are lots of great lenses being made by companies other
than leica, er except the lens made by lieca for the LX3?
What did I write that makes you think I'm putting down the LX3's lens? A lens doesn't have to be the equal of a 35/2 Summicron to be a great lens. But too many people seem to equate the Leica name on ANY LENS with high quality. And a lot of that has to do with Leica's reputation with its R- and M-mount lenses. My point, in mentioning the LX3's lens is that the fact that it says "Leica" on it does not mean it was built by Leica, or even designed by Leica, or QA'd by Leica. And if it were all three of those things, there's no way the entire camera and lens would sell for its curent price, which is about a quarter or less of a typical Leica prime. So the fact that the Fuji doesn't have a Leica lens should not be a negative attribute because just the mere fact that the LX3 has a Leica lens doesn't mean it's a good lens. The lens has to be tested before determining its quality. The word, "Leica," on it means nothing.
I don't know why people feel the need to slag off the LX3, its a
decent camera and lots of people are very happy about that - why do
you feel the need to criticise them for liking it?
I'm not slagging the LX3 at all. It's a great camera. I'm slagging the mind set that attaches far too much importance to the label on a lens.

larsbc
 
Here is what I expect from what I've learned about it so far:

The Wide DR mode reads half of the pixels early (after only 1/8 of
the time). This makes them 3 stops less sensitive, giving three stops
extra highlight headroom. But since 44% of the photons are wasted
this way, the cost is more photon noise.
But on the other hand since those pixels are going to be the ones to capture burn, you have a very strong signal, so noise is far less of an issue than a normal exposure. I consider this pretty much a non issue.
The tow kinds of pixels will register different images spatially when
shooting something that causes motion blur. This 'd expect to give a
front-curtain like ghosting.
This is virtually a non issue. The places where this will be used the most are scenes that will normally have relatively fast shutter - assuming it works the way you say.
The other two modes won't waste any photons, but the gain from
binning is yet to be proven. It could be anything from zero to a
factor sqrt(2) gain depending on the particular implementation.
Nothing to threaten the low light capability of the LX3.
I disagree. Fuji is already really good to begin with, with ISO/noise management.

The real obstacle here is Lens speed, but it could be that the ISO gain over the LX3 offsets this to a point of cancel it completely (or maybe even give 1/3rd to 1 stop of an advantage anyway, but Ill play conservative and say cancel out).

With that combined with having vastly superior color in JPEGS, I would say Fuji did something right on this. The LX3 can still do manual focusing though and has better ergonomics.

The DR is untouched. This camera most likely has more DR than a Nikon D3, judging by what I know Fuji did with the SR sensor of the F700/F710 back in time.
The unusal colour filter layout could cause demosaicing artefacts.
That could be the case, but I am sure Fuji has this nailed down. Quite frankly judging by their samples this is a complete non issue imho.
Interesting innovation anyway, could be very good for high DR.
It is.
Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden
--
Raist3d (Photographer & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'
 
The F700 was a 3 megapixel camera. It had 6 mega photosites. Fuji tried to spec them out separately to make it seem the camera had 6 megapixels. It did have a 6 megapixel mode- as almost every Super CCD camera at the time did as a straight result of the 45 degree angle Bayer pattern the camera has- this actually provided a little bit of more resolution in some subjects but it's more of a "3 megapixels + " than 6.

The F700/F710 had supreme dynamic range. Insane.

The new arrangement (EXR) you do have true 12 megapixels unless you are using the camera for low noise or high DR. 6 megapixel's are still pretty good.

--
Raist3d (Photographer & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'
 
Here is what I expect from what I've learned about it so far:

The Wide DR mode reads half of the pixels early (after only 1/8 of
the time). This makes them 3 stops less sensitive, giving three stops
extra highlight headroom. But since 44% of the photons are wasted
this way, the cost is more photon noise.
But on the other hand since those pixels are going to be the ones to
capture burn, you have a very strong signal, so noise is far less of
an issue than a normal exposure. I consider this pretty much a non
issue.
What he's saying is that, if you shut half the pixels off early, you lose signal in the shadow areas at the expense of extending the highlight range.

It's still a good idea, though, since you're gaining 3 stops at the highlight range and losing -log_2 (.44) in the shadows.
The other two modes won't waste any photons, but the gain from
binning is yet to be proven. It could be anything from zero to a
factor sqrt(2) gain depending on the particular implementation.
Nothing to threaten the low light capability of the LX3.
How does binning ever gain you anything at high ISO? The fractional shot noise in a given region of the image from gathering N photons is still sqrt(N), no matter how you slice that region up into pixels.
I disagree. Fuji is already really good to begin with, with ISO/noise
management.
They have good NR algorithms that preserve the crispness of edges, but no NR algorithm no matter how good can recover detail below the noise floor.
The real obstacle here is Lens speed, but it could be that the ISO
gain over the LX3 offsets this to a point of cancel it completely (or
maybe even give 1/3rd to 1 stop of an advantage anyway, but Ill play
conservative and say cancel out).
Its sensor has to be three times better to make that ground up. Can Fuji's magic sensor somehow collect three times as many photons as the LX3's? Probably not. Their tricks to improve dynamic range have real potential, but I doubt they'll improve high ISO.
The DR is untouched. This camera most likely has more DR than a Nikon
D3, judging by what I know Fuji did with the SR sensor of the
F700/F710 back in time.
I find that hard to believe. At best the trick mentioned above (turn off some pixels 1/8 of the way through the exposure) expands DR by 2 1/3 stops or so (see math above); there's no way that can make up for the absurd amount that you can pull out of the shadows in a full-frame DSLR.
Interesting innovation anyway, could be very good for high DR.
It is.
I imagine it will be great for high DR but significantly worse than the LX3 for low-light. No amount of electronic wizardry will make Planck's constant less.
 
ihi i dont know if its only a quesion of iso, it look panasonic see right exposure just a little bit underexposed then a G10 for example

btw looking at comparinson i cant understand:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicdmclx3/page11.asp

Lx3 shoot at 80 iso, 1/125 sec, f3.2
canon G10 80 iso, 1/60, f4

so if canon has to open one more stop, at 2.8, canon has to rise exposure to 1/120 , right?

while lx3 is at 3.2 already at 1/125, so if they open at 2.8 exposure will go to 1/160 circa ,right? so they need less light for reach same exposure

or on reverse,if LX3 close at f4 like canon is still over 1/60, maybe 1/80, right?:-)

but ...but ...to be truth as i started this post, LX3 images are little darker tthen canon, but need also less light,

i dont like do this counts, maybe my counts are also wrong:)) but photography its not done only of numbers, but i want know what other things about thix, dox or non dox experiments:)))
 
So they say they don't have a histogram, which is "too advanced a feature for a consumer camera," but they come up with a system where half the resolution has to be used for this, that and the other thing... WTF?

Fuji, you were so close...
 
What he's saying is that, if you shut half the pixels off early, you
lose signal in the shadow areas at the expense of extending the
highlight range.
The point is that it is the other half of the pixels that are supposed to be getting shadow detail.

--
john carson
 
So they say they don't have a histogram, which is "too advanced a
feature for a consumer camera," but they come up with a system where
half the resolution has to be used for this, that and the other
thing... WTF?
Personally, I think the half the resolution deal is entirely acceptable.

If you take most of your photos in favourable light (as most people do) and if you accept the reality that P&S cameras are lousy in unfavourable light, then having a P&S camera that does a respectable job in unfavourable light with 6 MP resolution seems good to me.

--
john carson
 
What he's saying is that, if you shut half the pixels off early, you
lose signal in the shadow areas at the expense of extending the
highlight range.
The point is that it is the other half of the pixels that are
supposed to be getting shadow detail.
Right, but you get more shadow detail if you devote all of a sensor to measuring it rather than half.
 
It's not in the LX-3 class, and the lens ins't fast..

On the other hand, it might have a great sensor, so we will have to
wait and see.

Someone said something about marketing earlier, well companies do
hype things up, we will see if it delivers.

Oh BTW, I keep reading posts about the LX-3 ISO values being grossly
overstated (in other words not accurate, DXo tests of something like
it) So maybe the speed difference won't be as massive as some suggest
(if fuji do accurate ISO values)

And the mega distortion lx-3 lens, is corrected in software..

So it ain't just fuji making up hype!
--
I think Leica corrects their expensive lenses on the M8 with the camera's software too. At least I am pretty sure I read that in Shutterbug when it first came out.
--
Oll an gwella,
Jim



[LX1]

[FZ30] * IS/L B-300 * IS/L B-Macro * Minolta No. 0, No. 1 & No. 2 * Sunpak 383 * Benbo Trekker

[L1] * Olympus 25mm 2.8 * Hexanon 40mm 1.8 * Vivitar Series 1 135mm 2.3 * Tokina 500mm 8.0 *
 
What he's saying is that, if you shut half the pixels off early, you
lose signal in the shadow areas at the expense of extending the
highlight range.
The point is that it is the other half of the pixels that are
supposed to be getting shadow detail.
Right, but you get more shadow detail if you devote all of a sensor
to measuring it rather than half.
No you don't. If all of the sensor is trying to simultaneously capture both shadow detail and highlights, then it may capture at least one of them poorly, and may capture both poorly. With half the sensor capturing highlights and half capturing shadow detail, you can capture both better.

It depends, of course, on how much contrast is in the subject. If you have a low contrast subject, then a simple full resolution image is best. If, however, the contrast of the subject is well outside the dynamic range that the camera can capture in full resolution mode, then you can do better by, in effect, taking two 6 MP shots at different exposures and combining them, which is what the Fuji sensor does.

--
john carson
 
Here is what I expect from what I've learned about it so far:

The Wide DR mode reads half of the pixels early (after only 1/8 of
the time). This makes them 3 stops less sensitive, giving three stops
extra highlight headroom. But since 44% of the photons are wasted
this way, the cost is more photon noise.
But on the other hand since those pixels are going to be the ones to
capture burn, you have a very strong signal, so noise is far less of
an issue than a normal exposure. I consider this pretty much a non
issue.
What he's saying is that, if you shut half the pixels off early, you
lose signal in the shadow areas at the expense of extending the
highlight range.
You don't, that's why you get 1/2 the photosites exposed regularly/more to capture the shadow detail. The tradeoff in this sensor is you shoot at 6 megapixels and not 12, in that mode.
It's still a good idea, though, since you're gaining 3 stops at the
highlight range and losing -log_2 (.44) in the shadows.
You don't lose the shadows in this sensor.
The other two modes won't waste any photons, but the gain from
binning is yet to be proven. It could be anything from zero to a
factor sqrt(2) gain depending on the particular implementation.
Nothing to threaten the low light capability of the LX3.
How does binning ever gain you anything at high ISO? The fractional
shot noise in a given region of the image from gathering N photons is
still sqrt(N), no matter how you slice that region up into pixels.
You get two photosites to "vote" on the color, you get a better average, more surface area aimed at the "same position."
I disagree. Fuji is already really good to begin with, with ISO/noise
management.
They have good NR algorithms that preserve the crispness of edges,
but no NR algorithm no matter how good can recover detail below the
noise floor.
That's true but that wasn't my point. My point is that Fuji has better than usual ISO at the hardware sensor level, not just the software post recovery.
The real obstacle here is Lens speed, but it could be that the ISO
gain over the LX3 offsets this to a point of cancel it completely (or
maybe even give 1/3rd to 1 stop of an advantage anyway, but Ill play
conservative and say cancel out).
Its sensor has to be three times better to make that ground up. Can
Fuji's magic sensor somehow collect three times as many photons as
the LX3's? Probably not. Their tricks to improve dynamic range have
real potential, but I doubt they'll improve high ISO.
Considering that previous Fuji cameras have been doing pretty good, it is certainly possible. And you don't need 3 times. I don't know where you go that.

In theory you need 2 times (at telephoto, which is the worst case, it's from F2.8 on the LX3 to 5.3 on the Fuji). That's about 1 stop + 2/3rds EV's. That's less than two stops. Count about a 1/3rd under rated ISO (note: assuming the Fuji ISO rating is spot on) and now you have 1.5 times better to catch up, not three.
The DR is untouched. This camera most likely has more DR than a Nikon
D3, judging by what I know Fuji did with the SR sensor of the
F700/F710 back in time.
I find that hard to believe. At best the trick mentioned above (turn
off some pixels 1/8 of the way through the exposure) expands DR by 2
1/3 stops or so (see math above); there's no way that can make up for
the absurd amount that you can pull out of the shadows in a
full-frame DSLR.
Check out my posted shot. If the D3 can recover that.. btw, that's of a camera that is 5 years old!
Interesting innovation anyway, could be very good for high DR.
It is.
I imagine it will be great for high DR but significantly worse than
the LX3 for low-light. No amount of electronic wizardry will make
Planck's constant less.
You can say that but the thing is the F30 already did better at the same ISO than the LX3. The reason the LX3 catches up is mainly the lens speed. The EXR is supposed to be better than F30 so...

--
Raist3d (Photographer & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'
 

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