Blown-out flash at close distances with SB-90

David (and all others who may wish to contribute):

I've been batting this around all day, and thought I'd post again.

Please correct any part of what follows that doesn't seem right.

First, I do want to shoot at high ISO, as I bought the camera for that reason, can't much control where folks go when shooting events -- HEY, STAY OUT OF THAT DARK ROOM!! -- and already am getting good shots with flash at ISO 6400, albeit occasionally with the chimping and experimentation alluded to in earlier posts.

IF** Manual 1/128 is way too much, then it does sound ... question mark ... that I'm exceeding the minimum output of the flash. (?) Even though results with TTL-BL, TTL, and aperture priority flash all were better than Manual 1/128 results, which were totally blown out.

THEN** I just have to diffuse away. I don't know why the 580 EX (not an underpowered flash) didn't have this problem -- but it didn't, and I don't have it anymore, I'm a Nikon shooter now, and thinking about the 580 EX won't help.

AND** diffusing has done the most good so far. Wide flash adapter down; that helps. Diffuser dome on, even when flash head pointed forward. That helps. Big ugly effective Lumiquest softbox on the flash; that helps too.

IF** that's the ticket, then -- ungainly as it might be -- I can just keep piling stuff on the SB-900 until I get it down enough so I can do what I want to do with it, most of the time. I can bring along extra batteries. What do I care? I usually take only 250 - 350 shots at a time, anyway.

OR I can get a mini-diffuser for the icky little built-in flash, and try using that. T'would only set me back $15 for the experiment. Then I might even use the SB-900 for the rare occasion when I can go Strobist and do the camera-off-the-flash-shoe thing.

How does this sound? Am I on the right track?

(And I'll say again to others, not that it will do much good: I can't shoot at ISO 200. I'm sorry. Can't tell people to stay out of dark rooms. They rarely pose for me.)

what are you taking pictures of.?
What do you need to get so close to.?
Can you post an example,'Just curious!!
--
Sam
http://www.samjsternphotography.com

If you are consistently taking picture that close you should be using R1C1 which has a close up mode and works really well!
--
BillD
Sydney, Australia

Time is the only thing I don't have enough of.

@ rhaytana

I myself is planning to buy sb-900, but after reading this post I'm wandering with flash and bumping up the iso should give me what effect? Clear background like using slow sync flash but with higher speed shutter (if that's so its cool)? I don't know anything about flash yet, have been reading thru manuals and watched the nikon speedlight vids. Haven't come across these setting so just wandering.

rhaytana said:

David (and all others who may wish to contribute):

I've been batting this around all day, and thought I'd post again.

Please correct any part of what follows that doesn't seem right.

First, I do want to shoot at high ISO, as I bought the camera for
that reason, can't much control where folks go when shooting events
-- HEY, STAY OUT OF THAT DARK ROOM!! -- and already am getting good
shots with flash at ISO 6400, albeit occasionally with the chimping
and experimentation alluded to in earlier posts.

Click to expand...

the problem is iso6400, aperture f2.8 and shutter speed 1/50

i assume you are trying to get some ambient light

rhaytana said:

IF** Manual 1/128 is way too much, then it does sound ... question
mark ... that I'm exceeding the minimum output of the flash. (?)
Even though results with TTL-BL, TTL, and aperture priority flash all
were better than Manual 1/128 results, which were totally blown out.

Click to expand...

yes, it appears that in TTL mode you can get less than 1/128 power out of the flash

rhaytana said:

AND** diffusing has done the most good so far. Wide flash adapter
down; that helps. Diffuser dome on, even when flash head pointed
forward. That helps. Big ugly effective Lumiquest softbox on the
flash; that helps too.

Click to expand...

yes, or it took me about four seconds to cut out some paper and stuff it inside my stoffen diffuser and that worked - or cover it in white fabric - a sheet - paint it white

run down to the dollar store and buy a bottle of rubbing alcohol and cut it up and make a diffuser and glue on some white fabric

had down to craft store and pickup some white fun foam and make your own diffuser - that ought to cut it down nicely - of course it would cost you $1

rhaytana said:

IF** that's the ticket, then -- ungainly as it might be -- I can
just keep piling stuff on the SB-900 until I get it down enough so I
can do what I want to do with it, most of the time. I can bring
along extra batteries.

Click to expand...

if it is firing at minimum flash now - you won't need extra batteries - it won't use up any more energy

rhaytana said:

OR I can get a mini-diffuser for the icky little built-in flash, and
try using that. T'would only set me back $15 for the experiment.
Then I might even use the SB-900 for the rare occasion when I can go
Strobist and do the camera-off-the-flash-shoe thing.

Click to expand...

from what i can tell the pop up flash on my D300 at iso6400 F2.8 at around 16 inches will not over expose - no diffuser necessary

i imagine a SB-R200 operated off a flash bracket would be pretty cool

you might also consider the SB600

maybe something like this

http://www.flaghead.co.uk/pages/ringflash-range.html

rhaytana said:

How does this sound? Am I on the right track?

Click to expand...

sounds like it

still not sure why you need to shoot at 1-2' with ISO6400, F2.8 and flash straight ahead on a camera

seems to me there are better ways to skin the cat

love to see some shots

good luck

David

David314 said:

David314 said:

IF** Manual 1/128 is way too much, then it does sound ... question
mark ... that I'm exceeding the minimum output of the flash. (?)
Even though results with TTL-BL, TTL, and aperture priority flash all
were better than Manual 1/128 results, which were totally blown out.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

David314 said:

David314 wrote:
yes, it appears that in TTL mode you can get less than 1/128 power
out of the flash

Click to expand...

Yes, this is true: you can get the flash to fire at a much lower output using TTL, than 1/128th power. I'd say down to 1/256 th pwr and even lower, is certainly available, wich means one more stop of control, but the flash's LCD distance scale is being very conservative regarding close up illumination (you can shoot closer than indicated, in TTL).

--
Jean Bernier

All photographs are only more or less credible illusions

David314, thanks very much. I'll continue in my response to Jean Bernier below -- the last post now in this thread's list -- who also has been very helpful.

Thanks, Jean. I may be getting somewhere. David314's suggestions also have been excellent. I'm going to look for ways to diffuse diffuse diffuse -- perhaps with a trip to the dollar store for that bottle of rubbing alcohol, as David 314 suggests -- and see if that works.

6400 ISO at 2.8 is certainly extreme. (Yes, ambient light is what I'm after.) With the wide flash adapter + Nikon diffusion dome + Lumiquest softbox, I've been getting good results at 6400 ISO and F5 or so, even F4.5 if I take a step back. I am new to this camera set up, and hoped for the absolute flexibility I had with Canon E-TTL II. If flash blew out with the 580 EX, then something was wrong with the flash itself.

SportShooter today has an excellent video on their home page:

http://www.sportsshooter.com/special_feature/misc_video/ring-flash.html

about ring flash, including one nifty Ray Flash that could work for others doing close up work. I might get one, but am concerned that it won't allow me to hold that huge 14 - 24 properly.

I now need to do further experimentation, and will report results here.

Please let me thank you again for offering help, as well as others here who did their best to provide advice.

I should emphasize: I am getting better pictures out of my new Nikon than I did out of the Canon. I just didn't want to have to go through this adapt-and-modify-shooting-habits curve with Nikon flash.

In event shooting, I have to make decisions fast. Shoot shoot shoot, and much later chimp to see what I've got. I'm worried that if I don't get this down, I'm going to see that one of a kind shot in the viewfinder, shoot shoot shoot and then swear swear swear ...

I've had excellent results at ISO 6400, despite what some have written about the inadvisability of ever going this high. My problem has been when pushing the SB-900 to an extreme that many feel I shouldn't ask of the flash in the first place ... wide open at 2.8.

I personally found E-TTL II on the Canon to be much easier, much more plug and play ... but will defer to those who know more than me.

I'm not a point and shooter, but also don't feel qualified to offer pre-purchase advice. I fear steering you in the wrong direction.

If photography is very important to you, and if you'd be going to a completely new system, I do suggest budgeting rental dollars to test out the new system over the weekend first. Yes, that hurts the wallet. But I should have done it before going to Nikon, even though I'm likely -- at the end of the day -- to be glad I made this purchase.

It looks like the 'diffuse, diffuse, diffuse' approach worked.

Too early to tell for sure, but I'm quite optimistic. I happened across this web site:

http://home.comcast.net/~dougsmit/bounceflashtoys.html

which discusses homemade diffusers. (and was impressed with the exceptional caliber of the photographs made with relatively low-end equipment, which may be another indicator of how often knowledge trumps hardware.

He used bubble wrap to make one diffuser, and that, I've got plenty of. I:

(a) measured the face of my old Lumiquest softbox, http://www.lumiquest.com/products/softbox.htm

(b) cut four sheets of bubble wrap to size, stapled 'em together and gaffer taped the unattractive but functional mess to the business end of the Lumiquest.

While shooting outdoors today, I used bare flash with the wide flash adapter down when shooting close subjects. (I haven't had problems with flash outdoors.) Indoors, in dim light, on went the Nikon diffusion dome, and, on top of that, the bubble wrap equipped Lumiquest, with the flash head pointed straight forward.

This worked just fine when I could shoot at moderate apertures. The clear bubble wrap imparted no undesired tint.

Twice, when I had a chance, in a very dark setting, I knocked off a couple of let's-see-if-this-blows-out test shots: one within two feet at ISO 6400, f3.2, 1/25, and one roughly as close at ISO 6400, f4, 1/40. The first one, especially, would have been totally blown out in the testing last week, but this time it came through. It's ugly. It would need repair in Photoshop. But it could be used.

Not enough testing to declare victory, but, well, I'm optimistic.

David, thanks for encouraging me to continue in this direction.

Hello, what is your meter set to? Spot? Matrix? try using center weighted, or even spot, and pull your exposure from your subject that is up close, if you are at 6400 2.8, you will get tons of ambient, but the flash and camera will work together to keep the close subject from getting toasted. TTL = Through the lens, and your meter on your camera reads the preflashes and tell the flash how hot to pop. Your on camera meter is very important... My guess? Your setting your cam to matrix meter.

Lastly, you are shooting at extremes, obviously trying to get some kind of specialized look... you should be shooting in manual. The camera and flash were designed to BALANCE the exposure, your camera settings are most definitely not balanced. Use manual on your camera and flash, get exactly what you want.

When i shoot things like say a wedding, I set my D3 to some where in the ball park of 1/60th 2.8 iso 1600, flash pulled -.3 to -.7 stops. with the flashed head diffused and pointed slightly forward word distant subject, slightly back for close, and straight up for everything in between.

That is on the rare occasion I'm using on camera flash, 9 times out of 10 now days I'm using off camera flash, its worlds better.

Im a doubting thomas

Forfie said:

When i shoot things like say a wedding, I set my D3 to some where in
the ball park of 1/60th 2.8 iso 1600, flash pulled -.3 to -.7 stops.

with the flash head diffused and pointed slightly forward for distant subjects, > slightly back for close, and straight up for
everything in between.

Click to expand...

typos fixed... I'm sure you will find more...

I have never known TTL to work with a diffuser dome.

Forfile, I'm very interested in your post, and I hope that you'll take a moment to elaborate. Thank you for contributing!

Forfie said:

try using center weighted, or even spot, and pull your exposure from your subject > that is up close, if you are at 6400 2.8, you will get tons of ambient, but the flash > and camera will work together to keep the close subject from getting toasted. TTL > = Through the lens, and your meter on your camera reads the preflashes and tell > the flash how hot to pop. Your on camera meter is very important... My guess? > Your setting your cam to matrix meter.

Click to expand...

Your guess is correct -- I usually am on matrix, and go to center or spot only in circumstances when they're obviously needed.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say, 'pull your exposure from your subject that is up close' ... and I'm very curious, as you might be suggesting a technique I haven't tried. Do you mean compensating exposure way down on the camera body, or getting an exposure reading for something else in the frame, or using the D700's flash lock function? 'Tons of ambient' is what I want, so I'd love to know more.

My concern about all this, BTW, isn't about achieving a look, but about knowing that the camera/flash will deliver usable results when the action gets very fast and I'm blazing away with the shutter, with no time to adjust or chimp. If I have to think, 'don't open up more than 4.5,' or 'don't get so close at 4.5,' that's another thought in the way of shooting in fast paced situations.

With the Canon 5D / ETTL - II I could get just about as close as I liked, as wide open as I wished, with the body's highest ISO, and know that I could shoot shoot shoot and come away with usable photographs. I may now have that same flexibility with the D700 -- knock on wood -- albeit with that ugly-as-sin bubble wrapped softbox.

I will post up some example and techniques when i get some more time... I have to much stuff in my backlog at the moment.

Forrest

--
Im a doubting thomas