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All D-SLR's need all their picutres put through USM?

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Andy Tait106815

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Following on from earlier thread on soft D-60 pictures I went back to the shop where I bought it with examples of the soft images I am getting.

Was told ALL their D-SLR customers put ALL their shots through USM as standard saying you just don't get 'sharp' pictures out of any D-SLR. Sorry, I don't accept that! Some sharpening maybe for specific shots, but a necessity for every picture because the D-SLRs don't capture sharp pictures?

They offered me a new lens to try (28-135 with image stabliser) took some tests (link below) which made no difference at all.

Anyone else heard this? I never read in any reviews before I bought the camera that said images would be so soft and that every picture would need USM processing.

I would be grateful for anyone who can look at these examples and say whether this is normal or not.

Thanks

http://www.pbase.com/mrblockhead/d60_shots
 
MrBlockhead said:
Sorry, I don't accept that!
Click to expand...
No one's got a gun to your head, go get a 707.

ALL bayer filter digital cameras need quite a bit of sharpening to look "sharp." Consumer digicams do more in-camera, DSLRs do less in-camera. That's all there is to it. There isn't anything magical about a DSLR that makes it soft.

Some people don't like to sharpen their bokeh for instance, this gives them to the option to avoid this.

Turn your in-camera sharpening to high if you prefer this.
 
Thanks for you views Jason, if what have is normal, fine I can live it all I want to do is establish what is 'normal'.

I did indeed look at the Phil's samples, but mine are softer than those!

Just had call, having heard the evidence over the phone, Canon reckon my camera is indeed faulty....

Regards
Jason Hutchinson said:
MrBlockhead said:
I never read in any reviews before I bought
the camera that said images would be so soft and that every picture
would need USM processing.
Click to expand...
How come you didn't look at the sample images in the review? As
Phil says, look at the images and decide for yourself if you like
the output.
Click to expand...
 
Other than focus, there is nothing usually in a digital camera that can vary and cause soft pictures. There are lots of ways discussed on this forum to test your focus.

The only picture that looks obviously soft is the picture of the guy in the car. I can't tell as I mentioned if it's focus, DOF, or the lens.
MrBlockhead said:
Thanks for you views Jason, if what have is normal, fine I can live
it all I want to do is establish what is 'normal'.

I did indeed look at the Phil's samples, but mine are softer than
those!

Just had call, having heard the evidence over the phone, Canon
reckon my camera is indeed faulty....

Regards
Click to expand...
 
First of all, how are you gauging sharpness? What exactly are you comparing it to?

If you're comparing it to other digital cameras, then you have to consider that the average consumer digital camera does a ton of in-camera sharpening. That's just fact.

Of course, sharpening also varies greatly by lens. My sharpest lens is my 28-70L, followed by my 70-200L. My softest lens is my 17-35L, which I can't stand. Each of my lenses has different characteristics, and as a result each impacts my workflow in a different way.

For instance, with my 28-70L, even a very light Unsharp Mask has the potential for oversharpening. I usually forego unsharp mask when doing post processing on shots taken with this lens.

With my 70-200 f/2.8L IS, the factors vary a bit more since the lens is long. Was I wide open and at the far end of its focal length? NO zoom lens is at its best under those conditions. Usually I use around with a 0.3 USM factor in a plugin called "Quantum Mechanic" (www.camerabits.com) with a threshold of around 3 or 4 for sharpness, but it depends on a few factors.

On my 17-35L... forget it. Nothing helps that lens :) I use it sparingly, and never print big with it :)

In the past, I owned several consumer grade lenses, such as the 28-200, the 28-135IS, and the 75-300IS. All were "soft" compared to my 2 better lenses, but of the 3 my favorite was the 28-200 for its color/contrast. The 28-200 required some definite USM, but I felt the color was excellent. Of course, I got rid of that lens during my older D30's lifetime.

As for your pictures, yes. They are definitely soft. However, it's impossible to determine WHY they are soft. The D60 is a camera body with a sensor. The quality of your pictures will vary greatly lens-to-lens. Could you give me some details on what lenses/settings you used for these shots? (maybe some exif data?) Were they on a zoom with a greater than 200mm range? What other lenses have you tried?
MrBlockhead said:
Following on from earlier thread on soft D-60 pictures I went back
to the shop where I bought it with examples of the soft images I am
getting.

Was told ALL their D-SLR customers put ALL their shots through USM
as standard saying you just don't get 'sharp' pictures out of any
D-SLR. Sorry, I don't accept that! Some sharpening maybe for
specific shots, but a necessity for every picture because the
D-SLRs don't capture sharp pictures?

They offered me a new lens to try (28-135 with image stabliser)
took some tests (link below) which made no difference at all.

Anyone else heard this? I never read in any reviews before I bought
the camera that said images would be so soft and that every picture
would need USM processing.

I would be grateful for anyone who can look at these examples and
say whether this is normal or not.

Thanks

http://www.pbase.com/mrblockhead/d60_shots
Click to expand...
--
-Karl
http://www.karlsphotos.com
 
I have shot a number of images with the 28-70L and 20-35L that would be oversharpened with USM applied. I have also shot some with the 28-135IS and 100-400L IS that need little sharpening. If they are shot sharp to begin with and the conditions are right I don't sharpen. I very rarely apply more than 50% to 70% on any full size image.
John R.
 
If http://www.pbase.com/image/3282128/large isn't sharp enough for you then yes, you will need USM one every picture. This is the sharpest out-of-the camera result I have been able to get so far. Shot at f11 with the 85/f1.2, so probably even diffraction limited somewhat, since that lens only stops down to f16. The picture has been processed, but no USM was used at any time. View the original for pixel-level detail.

-Keith
MrBlockhead said:
Following on from earlier thread on soft D-60 pictures I went back
to the shop where I bought it with examples of the soft images I am
getting.

Was told ALL their D-SLR customers put ALL their shots through USM
as standard saying you just don't get 'sharp' pictures out of any
D-SLR. Sorry, I don't accept that! Some sharpening maybe for
specific shots, but a necessity for every picture because the
D-SLRs don't capture sharp pictures?

They offered me a new lens to try (28-135 with image stabliser)
took some tests (link below) which made no difference at all.

Anyone else heard this? I never read in any reviews before I bought
the camera that said images would be so soft and that every picture
would need USM processing.

I would be grateful for anyone who can look at these examples and
say whether this is normal or not.

Thanks

http://www.pbase.com/mrblockhead/d60_shots
Click to expand...
 
Same here, I don't remember ever needing (or wanting) to sharpen images taken with the 50/1.4 outside of trying to repair user error (focus, shake, exposure, etc). I rarely need or want to sharpen pics taken with my 28-70 Tokina lens either.
John Harrison said:
I have shot a number of images with the 28-70L and 20-35L that
would be oversharpened with USM applied. I have also shot some with
the 28-135IS and 100-400L IS that need little sharpening. If they
are shot sharp to begin with and the conditions are right I don't
sharpen. I very rarely apply more than 50% to 70% on any full size
image.
John R.
Click to expand...
 
Keith Jewell said:
If http://www.pbase.com/image/3282128/large isn't sharp enough for
you then yes, you will need USM one every picture. This is the
sharpest out-of-the camera result I have been able to get so far.
Shot at f11 with the 85/f1.2, so probably even diffraction limited
somewhat, since that lens only stops down to f16. The picture has
been processed, but no USM was used at any time. View the original
for pixel-level detail.
Click to expand...
 
MrBlockhead said:
Following on from earlier thread on soft D-60 pictures I went back
to the shop where I bought it with examples of the soft images I am
getting.

Was told ALL their D-SLR customers put ALL their shots through USM
as standard saying you just don't get 'sharp' pictures out of any
D-SLR. Sorry, I don't accept that! Some sharpening maybe for
specific shots, but a necessity for every picture because the
D-SLRs don't capture sharp pictures?

They offered me a new lens to try (28-135 with image stabliser)
took some tests (link below) which made no difference at all.

Anyone else heard this? I never read in any reviews before I bought
the camera that said images would be so soft and that every picture
would need USM processing.

I would be grateful for anyone who can look at these examples and
say whether this is normal or not.

Thanks

http://www.pbase.com/mrblockhead/d60_shots
Click to expand...
--
Rich Claypole - (Wannabe Sports Photographer)

http://www.FootballPics.net

EOS 3, EOS D60
EF 50mm F1.8, EF 28-135mm IS, EF 100-400L IS
 
Rich Claypole said:
MrBlockhead said:
Following on from earlier thread on soft D-60 pictures I went back
to the shop where I bought it with examples of the soft images I am
getting.

Was told ALL their D-SLR customers put ALL their shots through USM
as standard saying you just don't get 'sharp' pictures out of any
D-SLR. Sorry, I don't accept that! Some sharpening maybe for
specific shots, but a necessity for every picture because the
D-SLRs don't capture sharp pictures?

They offered me a new lens to try (28-135 with image stabliser)
took some tests (link below) which made no difference at all.

Anyone else heard this? I never read in any reviews before I bought
the camera that said images would be so soft and that every picture
would need USM processing.

I would be grateful for anyone who can look at these examples and
say whether this is normal or not.

Thanks

http://www.pbase.com/mrblockhead/d60_shots
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Ok, what lens and what settings for the pictures? i.e. aperture. Most of the "cheaper" lenses won't provide sharp images until you shoot at F8 or above.

Have you tried some sample pics at different aperture values to see if this makes a difference.

Having seen some of the test results on here, if I want sharp images with my 28-135IS I would shoot F8 or above.
Rich Claypole said:
Rich Claypole - (Wannabe Sports Photographer)

http://www.FootballPics.net

EOS 3, EOS D60
EF 50mm F1.8, EF 28-135mm IS, EF 100-400L IS
Click to expand...
--
Rich Claypole - (Wannabe Sports Photographer)

http://www.FootballPics.net

EOS 3, EOS D60
EF 50mm F1.8, EF 28-135mm IS, EF 100-400L IS
 
Thats the fun of digital. All digital cameras even point and shoot cameras need some kind of USM and/or levels. I used to have a Sony 707 and people said no sharpening needed but I found they did also. I will say that good L lenses do make a big difference.
--
Steven
D30
28-70 2.8
28-135
80-200L
100-300L
50 1.8
 
Keith Jewell said:
If http://www.pbase.com/image/3282128/large isn't sharp enough for
you then yes, you will need USM one every picture. This is the
sharpest out-of-the camera result I have been able to get so far.
Shot at f11 with the 85/f1.2, so probably even diffraction limited
somewhat, since that lens only stops down to f16. The picture has
been processed, but no USM was used at any time. View the original
for pixel-level detail.

-Keith
Click to expand...
Now, now Keith, play nice. Everyone knows that use of USM is much easier than having good light, good glass, a bit of fill flash (ie technique) :)

--
Zero my hero
 
Here's a sample directly from my D60 with no processing for levels, no resizing, etc. I feel that it looks quite sharp. I attribute a lot of it to the lens (Canon 70-200mm F/4 L USM). The sharpening in your samples look too contrasty or over-sharpened. It also depends on how you plan to view the images. If you view them at 100% on a monitor smaller than, let's say, 19" or at a resolution under 1280 x 768 you will see the softer unprocessed image much more. Once you print the image out you will most likely see it sharpen up a little just from the increased resolution of the output device, especially if you print on a Inkjet or Color Laser printer even if you don't sharpen in your image processing program. Also keep in mind that sharpening should be the last step in your processing and should be applied appropriately for the final resolution that you are outputting to.

The image can be found at
http://www.pbase.com/image/3294875

Here are the EXIF readings from the shot...
File Name
121-2126_IMG.JPG
Camera Model Name
Canon EOS D60
Shooting Date/Time
7/20/2002 2:21:34 PM
Shooting Mode
Program AE
Tv( Shutter Speed )
1/200
Av( Aperture Value )
4.5
Metering Mode
Evaluative
Exposure Compensation
+1
ISO Speed
400
Lens
70.0 - 200.0mm
Focal Length
70.0mm
Image Size
3072x2048
Image Quality
Fine
Flash
On
Flash Type
Built-In Flash
Flash Exposure Compensation
0
Red-eye Reduction
On
Shutter curtain sync
1st-curtain sync
White Balance
Auto
AF Mode
One-Shot AF
Active AF Points
[ Center ]
Parameters
Contrast Normal
Sharpness Normal
Color saturation Normal
Color tone Normal
File Size
2495KB
File Number
121-2126
Custom Function Settings
02:Shutter button/AE lock button
0:AF/AE lock
03:Mirror lockup
0:Disable
04:TV,AV and exposure level
0:1/2-stop
05:AF-assist beam/Flash firing
0:Emits/Fires
06:Shutter speed in Av mode
0:Auto
07:AEB sequence/auto cancellation
0:0 => - => + Enabled
08:Shutter curtain sync
0:1st-curtain sync
09:Lens AF stop button Fn, switch
0:AF stop
10:Auto reduction of fill flash
0:Enable
11:Menu button return position
0:top
12:SET button func, when shooting
2:Change ISO speed
13:Sensor cleaning
0:Disable
14:Superimposed display
0:On
15:Shutter release without CF card
0:Possible without CF card
Drive Mode
Single-frame shooting
 
If there's one thing I've learned, it's that if you can get down to F8 or F11, it really doesn't matter which lens you're using. Of course, even the 50mm f1.8, at less than $100, works great stopped down to f2.8 or so. However, depth of field is still shallow, and focus is more important than you think.

And hey, I spent less than $300 on the monolights and stands to make this happen (used).

-Keith
Zero said:
Keith Jewell said:
If http://www.pbase.com/image/3282128/large isn't sharp enough for
you then yes, you will need USM one every picture. This is the
sharpest out-of-the camera result I have been able to get so far.
Shot at f11 with the 85/f1.2, so probably even diffraction limited
somewhat, since that lens only stops down to f16. The picture has
been processed, but no USM was used at any time. View the original
for pixel-level detail.

-Keith
Click to expand...
Now, now Keith, play nice. Everyone knows that use of USM is much
easier than having good light, good glass, a bit of fill flash (ie
technique) :)

--
Zero my hero
Click to expand...
 
They are right ...ALL DSLR's need USM on proberbly all movies....
MrBlockhead said:
Following on from earlier thread on soft D-60 pictures I went back
to the shop where I bought it with examples of the soft images I am
getting.

Was told ALL their D-SLR customers put ALL their shots through USM
as standard saying you just don't get 'sharp' pictures out of any
D-SLR. Sorry, I don't accept that! Some sharpening maybe for
specific shots, but a necessity for every picture because the
D-SLRs don't capture sharp pictures?

They offered me a new lens to try (28-135 with image stabliser)
took some tests (link below) which made no difference at all.

Anyone else heard this? I never read in any reviews before I bought
the camera that said images would be so soft and that every picture
would need USM processing.

I would be grateful for anyone who can look at these examples and
say whether this is normal or not.

Thanks

http://www.pbase.com/mrblockhead/d60_shots
Click to expand...
 
You should try putting your camera on a sturdy tripod and shooting with a remote or the internal timer, then see how those pictures look.

I'd also like to know at what shutter speed the other, presumably handheld, images where taken.

It's amazing just how little hand-shake/montion-blur it takes to really soften an image.

If you're hand-holding, with bad technique, at a relatively slow shutter speed, with a non-L/non-prime lens, with little in-camera sharpening, then I'd say getting a sharp image would be rather difficult, if not impossible.
 
Greg Good said:
Here's a sample directly from my D60 with no processing for levels,
no resizing, etc. I feel that it looks quite sharp. I attribute a
lot of it to the lens (Canon 70-200mm F/4 L USM). The sharpening in
your samples look too contrasty or over-sharpened. It also depends
on how you plan to view the images. If you view them at 100% on a
monitor smaller than, let's say, 19" or at a resolution under 1280
x 768 you will see the softer unprocessed image much more. Once you
print the image out you will most likely see it sharpen up a little
just from the increased resolution of the output device, especially
if you print on a Inkjet or Color Laser printer even if you don't
sharpen in your image processing program. Also keep in mind that
sharpening should be the last step in your processing and should be
applied appropriately for the final resolution that you are
outputting to.

The image can be found at
http://www.pbase.com/image/3294875

Here are the EXIF readings from the shot...
File Name
121-2126_IMG.JPG
Camera Model Name
Canon EOS D60
Shooting Date/Time
7/20/2002 2:21:34 PM
Shooting Mode
Program AE
Tv( Shutter Speed )
1/200
Av( Aperture Value )
4.5
Metering Mode
Evaluative
Exposure Compensation
+1
ISO Speed
400
Lens
70.0 - 200.0mm
Focal Length
70.0mm
Image Size
3072x2048
Image Quality
Fine
Flash
On
Flash Type
Built-In Flash
Flash Exposure Compensation
0
Red-eye Reduction
On
Shutter curtain sync
1st-curtain sync
White Balance
Auto
AF Mode
One-Shot AF
Active AF Points
[ Center ]
Parameters
Contrast Normal
Sharpness Normal
Color saturation Normal
Color tone Normal
File Size
2495KB
File Number
121-2126
Custom Function Settings
02:Shutter button/AE lock button
0:AF/AE lock
03:Mirror lockup
0:Disable
04:TV,AV and exposure level
0:1/2-stop
05:AF-assist beam/Flash firing
0:Emits/Fires
06:Shutter speed in Av mode
0:Auto
07:AEB sequence/auto cancellation
0:0 => - => + Enabled
08:Shutter curtain sync
0:1st-curtain sync
09:Lens AF stop button Fn, switch
0:AF stop
10:Auto reduction of fill flash
0:Enable
11:Menu button return position
0:top
12:SET button func, when shooting
2:Change ISO speed
13:Sensor cleaning
0:Disable
14:Superimposed display
0:On
15:Shutter release without CF card
0:Possible without CF card
Drive Mode
Single-frame shooting
Click to expand...
 
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