Image theft - double standards

How many of you ranting about downloading music has ever

1 picked up and read a magazine in a shop
2 borrowed a 0bok form the library

Because if you have your indulging in those double standards you
pretend to uphold.
Nonsense. Both are akin to listening to a song on the radio. Copying a song without authorization to play whenever you want, and allowing others to copy your unauthorized copy, is a totally different animal.
I do agree the photos are different being a single item with
perceived value in itself due to the creative process used to capture
the image it has no repeatability and therefore needs to be unique to
maintain it value.
What hogwash to justify music piracy. Replace "photos" with "songs."
 
Consider this....

So technically all those who would be shocked at the thought of
copying someone else's work of copyright are engaging in exactly the
same behaviour as those who set out to "steal" those works of art.
You have a "copy" of that image or piece of music.
Not the same thing, as I'll explain in a second.
My personal view is that I will never pass on to anyone else anything
that has been downloaded to my PC (unless the authoer permits or
encourages it - which some do). But if the technology means that I
get an unasked for copy of someone's work on my PC then I feel I am
entitled to use or dispose of it in whatever way I choose.
Have you ever read those long, seemingly meandering and wordy use agreements when you use an online photo sharing or storage service? You'll notice that in dealing with copyright, there are provisions allowing for the online service to transfer your files to backup systems and whatnot.

Those drawn-out legal statements simply complicate what lawyers already knew to be true: When you put a file onto the Web, you are doing so with the understanding that by doing so you are allowing that service to put a copy of that file on a user's computer for the sole purpose for which you intended: Private viewing.

The reverse is true when you view Web pages: You are viewing a Web site for private use only.

That does not mean you can distribute the associated Web files to others or archive them. The only reason Web browsers cache pages and associated files is for quicker viewing later.

If you were to dog through your browser's cache folders and pull out a photo you like and then put that photo on your own Web site, no court or lawyer would take you seriously if you were to say, "Well, I didn't ask for the photo to be put on my computer [of course, you did, because you visited the Web site to begin with], so I can do whatever I want with it."
 
.. have any affiliation with the music industry or recording industry, and if so from what perspective do you look at the question yourself? (eg, muso, engineer, manager etc).

But just for the record, Britney Elvis pretty well nailed it. Certainly put more into his response than I did above. The labels and studios have been scr3wing kids for years - legalised theft perhaps, but they're still mongrels. Sony is a great case in point. I wouldn't use a Sony product is it was free. But then my head's still back in the 60's and 70's so the modern bands and musicians are safe from me.
--
Mike M. (emem)
http://www.veritasmea.com
 
There is no helping anyone whose blood boils at the idea of someone else downloading an image/song/poem/whatever of theirs, and enjoying it in private.

Some people don't care, others would be pleased, and some are just funny that way. And some people confuse the right to be identified as the author of a work with the ability to control how it is used once released into the wild.

Human beings are very good at morals and social contracts. It's the foundation of everything we do. The overwhelming majority judgment on the equivalence between downloading a song from the internet and stealing a CD from a shop is obvious.

I see little moral difference between lending a friend a copy of a new book I like, and copying a new tune from my computer to their pen drive to sample. (If you were my friend I'd be lending you Bad Science by Dr Ben Goldacre. You'd probably wind up buying it for your friends.). But books have been around for a very long time and we have worked out ways of keeping things fairish. P2P is brand new and it will take a while to shake down and for a generally agreed system to emerge.

There is little moral virtue in the royalty system. It's strictly about money. The debauched remains of drug addicted child molesters and their pinstriped parasites are still collecting money for a few weeks work done thirty years ago.
 
Hi,

I have to admit that I am not too familiar with US/GB copyright, but I can at least add a few things from a European continental perspective to the discussion - including dealing with media content providers such as BMI and Sony.

A few have already mentioned it, but there is indeed quite a difference between the cases. If a photographer puts a picture on a public website, that is very much like giving a specific license, usually a license that allows viewing and temporary storage, but does not allow editing, archiving in data bases, reselling the photography or any such exploitation activities. It would help quite a lot if you made the license explicit, like required by Wikipedia.

If you buy a CD or download a song, you actually buy the right to play that song (to use it) in certain circumstances, and not the CD or DVD (which just happens to be a necessity). In Germany, these circumstances include the right to give a few copies (up to 7 according to current ruling) of the song to friends, to play the song at home etc., but not to use it at a commercial party, to broadcast it in the radio or to use it as the soundtrack for your new (publicly shown) film. Of course, you may also not redistribute it freely - the so-called private copy does really include only direct giving to a few friends and relatives, and it is not allowed to crack content protection for it.

In both cases, downloading and then doing something with the content which was not covered by the given license it is not actually stealing, but rather a type of exploitation right violation - you violate the license conditions, if you use a picture just found on the internet without the author's consent etc if the author hasn't given you the license for this (such as by explicitly putting the picture under a CC-NonAttributive license type).

Kind regards,

beelzebot.
 
There is little moral virtue in the royalty system. It's strictly
about money. The debauched remains of drug addicted child molesters
and their pinstriped parasites are still collecting money for a few
weeks work done thirty years ago.
What a great way to put it!! There are some things I wish I had written myself - and the statement above is one of them.

--
Mike M. (emem)
http://www.veritasmea.com
 
As a semi-pro musician, an ex-promoter who promoted major bands and artists and a photography enthusiast (this is probably the least relevant), I might have a few words to put together. Why am I not a promoter now? Simple, music doesn't pay, and it's one hell of a risky business unless you're real big with cash to support major acts. I wasn't.

I have discussed this issue with quite a few artists and managers during my promoter days. Everybody agrees that album sales are just not enough. You have to tour extensively, and what makes the world go round only comes during live gigs. Not that much though; I have to tell you that (in Turkey at least) out of 100 ticket price, 35 goes to the state, about 30 goes to the artist, the rest goes to PA (public address, sound system), lighting, stage, security, hotels, backline (amps and instruments), advertising. The promoter is lucky to have a few dollars left.

What about the band? The tour crew takes a lot, transportation takes a lot, management takes a lot and some is left if the band is lucky.

To quote an artist (who shall remain anonymous, as this was just a friendly chat at the backstage and he is quite well-known): "The record company took away my full control over my music, the internet took away my already-weak chance to make money out of album sales, and airport security measures are driving me nuts. But I have to overtour to make money. I will probably retire in a few years to grow olives in California, as I'm sick of waking up at a different hotel every two days."

My point is?

Art in general doesn't pay off, unless you're really big and prepared to bear the costs. The world of art is an inverted pyramid, with the artist at the bottom. Then come the managers, galleries, critics, record companies, publishing houses, distributors, stores, booking agents, promoters, the whole lot, and finally the audience.

What I'd love to see is the artist getting directly paid for. The Internet can achieve this; I'd rather pay the band directly for the music, than support the whole industry. Maybe I wouldn't see video clips, but I'd definitely see a lot more quality music.

Never been a pro photographer, probably never will be, but I guess it's similar. My band could be playing at a wedding where there is a photographer, but I suspect both would rather be somewhere else...

--
Guven Ilter
Tempus fugit et nos fugimus in illus...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/guvenilter/
 
This might be, but you should not enforce your (non-)business plans
on those who have other plans.
Do you mean that I should only take images and music if the artists
are fine with it, or do you mean that I shouldn't make divide between
non-commercial and commercial use of my work? In the former case i
agree, in the latter case, i disagree.
I mean both. While I see a difference in severity of guilt between
commercial and personal theft, both are wrong to me.
I'm not sure where you get that from. I said it's not right to steal.
yes ok. but still, i get the impression you're saying that taking
without giving money is bad, where i think that's [not] necessarily so.
No, I mean taking without giving back what the artist asked for is
wrong.
Whether someone asks for money, photo credit, a postcard, a free copy
of the publication with the used artwork - that is irrelevant in that
scope (for me).
This is a key point for me, and to me, exposes the false justifications
of those who would pirate non-free material:
If it's not worth to you what the author is asking, then don't
take it, and don't pay for it. If you must have it, then it
must be worth at least what the creator/owner is asking.

When I was in college for my Computer Science degree, I never
could understand why people, many of whom wanted to be
employed as programmers, would come up with all the justifications
for not paying for software -- the same software that they hoped
to be paid for writing when they graduated!

And whether we're talking about music or photographs, we're
talking art, not necessity. If it's not worth to you what the
owner asks, then find something else that is worth its asking
price -- there is so much out there free or incredibly inexpensive,
today!

--
Liberty breeds Responsibility
 
.. I for one am sick of having been ripped off by publishers for many
years, book and music, particularly here in Australia. The internet
has given many people a way to fight back and good luck to them.
Personally I think it's rather nice to see the recording industry
squirm while they rant and rave. To me it's a matter of ideology
rather than law. The law, by and large, is used to maintain the
status quo - the rich have always used the law to maintain and
protect their wealth. Recording companies (the big labels) have been
ripping off song writers and musicians as well as the general record
buying public for decades. Perhaps some day we will realise and
accept that greed is NOT good and that there must be some balance in
commerce. Look at what's happened on Wall Street and across the US
business world in the last few months and then have the gall to tell
me greed is good. Of course the same outrageous greed is manifest in
virtually all human commercial systems, which is why I believe that
all economies should be and indeed must be regulated. So that's my
rant.
That is funny, when analyzed. "Greed is bad. I desire that music,
so it's OK for me to take it, since the publisher is greedy. I am
not greedy for wanting and taking what I will not pay for."

How can all three of these be true?

There is so much music out there that is published by the musician,
or available licensed for very little money -- I can get songs on emusic
for about $.30 each, with no DRM, so I can copy them around to my
various computers as I wish, without worry (I don't let others copy
them, though). These may not be the same songs you hear on
the top 40 radio stations... but those aren't worth the $15/CD to me.
And if it's not worth the asking price, why should my want , trump
the owner's right ?

--
Liberty breeds Responsibility
 
I disagree that it's noble. People act according to how their peers
act.

It regularly surprised me for example, how in developing countries
like India, people never give a second thought to littering on the
streets. When I asked someone why .. they said because everybody
else does it.

If enough momentum is established that says stealing is wrong, and
that is a social norm that is accepted by the majority of people,
than it becomes wrong.
I disagree. I have a philosophy which says that some things are
inherently wrong, regardless of the belief of the majority. In short,
I believe that the initiation of force or fraud to achieve a personal,
social, or political goal is wrong.

Thus, murder, forced slavery, theft, and fraud are wrong, regardless
of the social climate (and there have been times when all of these
have been deemed socially acceptable).

I do agree that there are times when some group (society) comes
to believe that a certain thing is wrong, or right -- but that doesn't
mean that it is so. Societies have believed all manner of wrong things
through the years, legalized all manner of harmful things and outlawed
all manner of harmless or beneficial things -- but I believe that using as
a guide the statement above (about initiating force and fraud) would
provide a far better legal compass to lawmakers, and a far better
ethical and moral compass to individuals than any other I've heard.

As far as music or photographs go... I choose to believe that the
author or creator has the right to determine how her work is
distributed. If she chooses to sell it, if it's worth that price to me,
I may buy it, if it's not, I won't, and I'll find something else worth
it's price or do without.

(Where can I find the Pentax Philosophy board?)

--
Liberty breeds Responsibility
 
Have you ever read those long, seemingly meandering and wordy use
agreements when you use an online photo sharing or storage service?
You'll notice that in dealing with copyright, there are provisions
allowing for the online service to transfer your files to backup
systems and whatnot.
Yes - sad git that I am I do sometimes read the legal statements and surprisingly (or not) some of them have all sorts of words about only uploading content that belongs to you, but very little about not downloading that self same content - perhaps because the mere act of looking at the page and results in that material being downloaded to your PC (that's the way most web pages work)
Those drawn-out legal statements simply complicate what lawyers
already knew to be true: When you put a file onto the Web, you are
doing so with the understanding that by doing so you are allowing
that service to put a copy of that file on a user's computer for the
sole purpose for which you intended: Private viewing.
I think we are agreed here.
The reverse is true when you view Web pages: You are viewing a Web
site for private use only.

That does not mean you can distribute the associated Web files to
others or archive them. The only reason Web browsers cache pages and
associated files is for quicker viewing later.
If you were to dog through your browser's cache folders and pull out
a photo you like and then put that photo on your own Web site, no
court or lawyer would take you seriously if you were to say, "Well, I
didn't ask for the photo to be put on my computer [of course, you
did, because you visited the Web site to begin with], so I can do
whatever I want with it."
I totally agree - Unless the copyright owner has authorised it I won't distribute content that has been put on my PC to anyone else. But I reserve the right to manage my own PC and put such content where I want for my own personal use.

I guess the analogy is - a photographer visits my house and leaves a copy of one of his photos in my one of my rooms. I know it's theirs and I wont give it to someone else. But I might look at it and I'll put somewhere in my house of my choosing and if they can't be bothered to ask for it back I might eventually put it in a bin (especially if it wasn't a very good photo!)

And a slight digression. I'm not involved in the legal professions but in the UK my understanding that a "contract" does not exist unless some "consideration" (i.e. payment in money or kind) exists. Except for the copyright laws themselves - the only thing that the terms and conditions of a web site can impose (as there is no contract) is the ability to deny you right of use of that website should you choose not to conform to the Ts & Cs

So to go back to my point. The hosting of an image or music file on a website provides an implicit (or explicit if the legalise is clear) grant of use of that file for personal purposes including the copying of that file to your PC (otherwise you could not view or listen to the file in question). I am not advocating anything beyond personal use, but an acceptance by the author that in granting me the use of the file I have the right to manage the file structure of my PC systems.

Unauthorised Distribution of copyrighted material = NOT OK
Management and maintenance of my PC = OK

Neil

--
The Sky is a Beautiful Place
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9751542@N04/sets/72157600968880721/
 
Hi,
Designs can be, and are, copyrighted.
But not automatically. However, the exact rules on this vary greatly from country to country. In Germany and most of the European Union, you have to have produced something with a certain level of artistic value to be given protection under copyright rules automatically, or you have to apply for "legal protection of registered designs" (weaker type of copyright protection) or in the case of a technical design patent it. In the latter case, there obviously must not be prior art, and again, a degree of novetly (is/should) be required. There are some grey zones when it comes to software ("computer-implemented implementions": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_directive_on_the_patentability_of_computer-implemented_inventions ).

Of course, a lot of funny things happen in this context. Recently there was quite an uproar at the European Patent Office because somebody managed to patent the "PROCESS FOR THE PREPARATION OF PACKAGED PRE-COOKED PASTA":
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0825813.html

Greetings,

beelzebot
 
Britney Elvis wrote:
[redacted]
Where do you stand in this scenario then?

A band (let's say the Lawn Vultures) who write and perform their
songs, have a record deal with a Record company... but the deal sours
with time and the band decides to put their music out on a website...
with the "free downloads". The label attorneys slap a cease and
desist on the band refusing to allow the band to offer the free
downloads of their music, written after the record company showed no
interest in recording the very songs they now claim to own.

Should the band be allowed to give their songs away then? Whose
rights should prevail...
That's pretty simple, isn't it? You look back to the contract that the
band freely signed with the record company. Surely you read it before
signing it? If it says that the record company has rights to your song,
then the record company prevails. If it says that you retain or regain
rights to your songs, then you do.

If you didn't read and understand the contract, ignorance of the law
(and contract, which becomes a legally enforceable agreement between
the signing parties) is no excuse.

If you read and understood the contract, but figured that somehow it
didn't mean what it said, or didn't apply to you , or that you could
get out of it later... well, in this case, I guess that stupidity is its own
reward.

If the record company owns rights to your material, then it is indeed
wrong, and theft, for you to put those songs on your website for
free download without the owner's OK, because you are depriving
them of potential revenue (all your justifications about tank tops not
withstanding).
  • thomas.
--
Liberty breeds Responsibility
 
We can agree that it's hard to have any sympathy for people who steal the work of other artists, yet get upset when the same happens to them.

However, not all copyright violations are equal. I agree with the number of posters who see an important difference between use for own promotion/profit (pretending to be the artist, selling the work or using it commercially) and personal use (no posting/distribution). Be it photography or music I would be upset about the first but not the latter if I was the artist. For a fact, a lot of people won't acquire art/music that they have to pay for, and I'd rather have these people download and enjoy my work for free than not. Perhaps some of them ought to pay for it, but there's also a lot of people who simply can't afford it. You mention young people specifically, and a lot of these are students who have loans and/or low paying jobs - the latter is particularly true outside the western world.

In my opinion a lot of copyright violations are for the better. It inhibits a flow of money from poor to rich people, and I don't feel sorry at all for big labels and artists losing some profit this way. Small artists lose relatively less profit, and to many of them it is more important to be able to reach an audience at all.

I do however have great sympathy for those who respect and obey the law, only to find that cheating is widely accepted. That's incredibly frustrating and probably one reason you felt like ranting - correct me if I'm wrong.
 
If its able to be downloaded...better keep it offline. I download music and videos, programs, and yes...If I see a pic I want...I download it too. Didnt say anything about illegal downloading,....I just said I download and I will leave it at that..
--
A friend is only one argument away...
 
If it's not worth to you what the
owner asks, then find something else that is worth its asking
price -- there is so much out there free or incredibly inexpensive,
today!
This is exactly where the argument I was making is misunderstood in the replies. I wasn't saying that you should take whatever you want, I was saying that there are a lot of artists who are not asking for money, or for anything really. So you can take from them, and decide for yourself what to give back (a compliment, a bit of respect, your attendence at a concert, purchasing of merchandise...)
 
Hi Mike,
.. have any affiliation with the music industry or recording
industry, and if so from what perspective do you look at the question
yourself? (eg, muso, engineer, manager etc).
My gf is an amateur singer/songwrite. My perspective has been watching / admiring / being amazed at the amount of effort it takes for her to produce a single song. It takes weeks if not months to write one. First she has to have an idea, come up with lyrics, revise them, create chord progressions, practice. This is on top of a day job of being a teacher. Finally if she wants to start playing for others, she has to attend late night events and really self-promote. She's also spent about $20k in the studio trying to make her first CD this year by going to a studio to get her songs mixed by a sound engineer.

Whereas one photo that I take is really about being in the right place, having the right equipment, getting the right composition, and then coming home and doing at most a few minutes of post-processing. So I would say the cost to produce one single image (unless you've gone out of your way - hiked into the mountains, camped in the bush for 3 weeks to photograph some wild animal) is much much lower than that of producing a good musical track. Of course if I wanted to promote my image, than I have alot of work ahead of me ;)
 
This might be, but you should not enforce your (non-)business plans
on those who have other plans.
Do you mean that I should only take images and music if the artists
are fine with it, or do you mean that I shouldn't make divide between
non-commercial and commercial use of my work? In the former case i
agree, in the latter case, i disagree.
I mean both. While I see a difference in severity of guilt between
commercial and personal theft, both are wrong to me.
How does that mean both? I make a difference in commercial and personal use of my photographs in my (creative commons) license. People who use my images for themselves do this legally, people who use them commercially do this illegally, since they are not allowed to do that according to my license.

I think this is a perfectly fine way of protecting my work from abuse (which for me is monetary gain for others), while it still is conveniently available for use (which for me is the enjoyment of my work).

If i understand you correctly, for you both of these uses would be stealing, so they are both wrong, even if I want to give away under certain restrictions. Why?
 
Sharing is not theft, you never taped off the radio back in the day, or if your older you never used a reel to reel I know my parents did why was it ok then and not anymore????. If its personal use and not for profit there should be a prob. Its distributers or pirated media that are a prob.

I didnt read the entire thread but thought i would put my 2 cents in.
--
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/davidpetryk

Dave Pet
 
This might be, but you should not enforce your (non-)business plans
on those who have other plans.
Do you mean that I should only take images and music if the artists
are fine with it, or do you mean that I shouldn't make divide between
non-commercial and commercial use of my work? In the former case i
agree, in the latter case, i disagree.
I mean both. While I see a difference in severity of guilt between
commercial and personal theft, both are wrong to me.
How does that mean both?
Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. Yes, you making a difference about how your work may be used is normal and perfectly okay.
What I did read was:
"""""
Do you mean that I should only take images and music if the artists
are fine with it, or do you mean that I shouldn't make divide between
non-commercial and commercial use of their work?
"""""

I did not notice that you made the transition from "them" to yourself as an artist. And I thought you meant that taking their stuff is okay for personal use but not for commercial use, even if they are not allowing either.

Sorry for the confusion, stupid reading comprehension...
Jens

--

'Well, 'Zooming with your feet' is usually a stupid thing as zoom rings are designed for hands.' (Me, 2006)
My Homepage: http://www.JensRoesner.de
 

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