The Mirror Lock Up battle goes on...

  • Thread starter Thread starter Barry Fitzgerald
  • Start date Start date
No I chose my words carefully when I bemoaned the lack of external
flash controller it was you who attempted to twist my words in order
to belittle the need for an on-board flash.
So you're saying some cameras have a built in wireless camera
controller that isn't a onboard flash ?
Yes that is precisely what I am saying !!!
--
Keith-C
Really what cameras has a wireless transmitter/controller that isnt a onboard flash ?

Cause from my knowledge all cameras that can control a flash wirelss without a external flash/controller.

Do so with the use of the onboard flash.

--
Regards
Paul L.
 
And why is it my film bodies support ratio wireless flash with 36/56
flashguns, yet sony expect you to buy the top range 58 model to get
it??
That's because it's two different technologies. On film cameras, the flash system "only" needed to measure the light reflected off the film during exposure, then interrupt the first flash (group) when half the required exposure was reached and only use the other flash (group) for the remaining 50 %. The sensors on digital SLRs don't reflect light in the same way, so you need a pre-flash, then a command to tell the different flashes how long to fire.
It's a camera based thing..do I detect the desire to sell people
stuff..and not enhance current models.
In this particular case, I don't think any manufacturer has been able to simply upgrade existing TTL systems.
I couldnt call the dynax 5 high end..yet it does do wireless and
ratio wireless with those flashes..so what gives??
It's a film camera. I think it was Ilford who wanted to introduce a B&W film with an almost black surface, but had to give it up, because of OTF flash exposure systems.

I have a 7D and a (broken) 5600, and from memory I would say that the section about ratios in the flash manual is made void by the camera manual, so it's not a question about money - it simply can't be done.

You need to switch to manual flash; however, the manual for the 5600 specifically states that "Ratio-flash control cannot be used with manual flash photography".
 
It could break off. Not that I've ever heard of it, but in a hectic environment it could happen.
I couldnt care less Barry, im not in the market for any of the
cameras mentioned, im just telling you that its a reason MLU isnt
there on the A900, and its was not by misstake.
According to the user manual it most certainly is there.
Im not against better products, Sony flah system is not on pair with
Nikon, not when it comes to features, and consistency.
It may yet be. After all, Minolta was years ahead of Canon and Nikon, but then stopped. Sony could easily match both if they put their minds to it.
I dont use on camera flash, period. A big bright vf is probabley more
important for the A900 user then a onboard flash.
They're not mutually exclusive. Whether you use a built-in flash or not is hardly relevant to the people who would if they could.
And for those who need a wireless transmitter, they would surely be
willing to buy one, if just Sony offered one...
Sony does offer one ... on all their other cameras.

There are also the bad reasons: Design and pro photographers' dislike.
 
According to the user manual it most certainly is there.
I meant the A200 of course :-)
It may yet be. After all, Minolta was years ahead of Canon and Nikon,
but then stopped. Sony could easily match both if they put their
minds to it.
What arey they waiting for...
Sony does offer one ... on all their other cameras.
You obviously havent used a SU-800. And im quite sure your smart enough to understand that i was refering to a external transmitter.
There are also the bad reasons: Design and pro photographers' dislike.
?
--
Regards
Paul L.
 
Barry I really think someone as demanding as you should be in an A700... prices keep failing..

That said.. there is nothing wrong with asking for improvements in the camera you own as long as you realize the camera you own is what YOU CHOSE not what Sony made you buy.

Remember I flew to Vegas last year partly to make a case for High ISO NR Off face to face.. So I say go for it.

I have been curious why they took MLU out of the full A200/A3XX line. It seems to be a free feature. Assuming the electronics allow for Mirror control independent of the the shutter actions.. Does the mirror stay down for long exposure NR?

One of the reasons I bought my KM5D was it had more features than the Nikons and Canons in the price range and even had stuff the 7D didn't have.

I think its too soon for Sony to play the protect the upper cameras with fewer features game.. But they also have to realize that easier to use is key for entry level people.. so we are making assumptions when we assume the loss of features was about making people buy more expensive cameras vs making the cameras more attractive to the core market..

And I am pretty sure Barry is a more advance photographer than the 80% of the target market for the A200.

---------
Ken - A700 Owner..
Some of my work at:
http://gallery.cascadephotoworks.com
 
According to the user manual it most certainly is there.
I meant the A200 of course :-)
I knew that, but I couldn't resist.
It may yet be. After all, Minolta was years ahead of Canon and Nikon,
but then stopped. Sony could easily match both if they put their
minds to it.
What arey they waiting for...
I don't know that they're waiting. They may be hard at work right now. Don't forget that Minolta was losing money on its camera division years before they made the 7D, so a new flash system was probably not on the top of their list. Add to that the fact that the big five have had their flashes manufactured by Panasonic, probably Sony's greates rival. The new Sony 58 is probably as good as they come, although I haven't seen any serious tests, so I could be wrong.
Sony does offer one ... on all their other cameras.
You obviously havent used a SU-800. And im quite sure your smart
enough to understand that i was refering to a external transmitter.
You're right on both accounts, but I'm also smart enough to realise the potential of using the built-in flash as a trigger for remote flashes. It's always there, it's cheap - and it can be used as AF assistance as well.
There are also the bad reasons: Design and pro photographers' dislike.
?
The design part:

The prism on the A900 is a very dominant design feature. Nikon's D3 has no built-in flash, but its huge prism is still faired over in the same fashion as on the D700. The D700 does have a built-in flash ... and a huge prism.

There is plenty of room on top of the A900's prism for a built-in flash. It would even have the advantage of being positioned quite a bit higher than on other models, thus reducing the risk of red-eye.

But it would alter the design, just like it did on the Dynax 9 and on the Nikon D3.

The dislike part:

To many professional photographers, a built-in flash is indicative of an amateur camera. They have all kinds of explanations for this, but I have yet to hear one that I can subscribe to, but I'm not a pro. I do, however, remember when Minolta introduced the 7000, how pro photographers and expert amateurs would say that they would never trust a camera to focus for them ... and that it couldn't do it as fast as they could anyway. It was merely a thing for amateurs.

Today, everything in a modern camera is automatic. The Nikon D3 even has P-mode! Talk about a non-pro feature! So what's with the attitude that a built-in flash is incompatible with a pro camera?
 
Now if they are bugs with the specified feature set then they should
be fixed, of course, since the product is not functioning as
advertised. But why should a manufacturer of any product give you
free upgrades to features that others have had to pay more for in an
advanced body. Great for the consumer I guess but aweful for a
business trying to make money. And if a business can't make money
they won't be around for long.
Nobody is asking for advanced features..just a few simple additions
that have strong practical uses for the owners.

In a word "competition"..if you make your products better featured,
in addition to showing you respond to current users by making
advancements in firmware updates..you will surely have a greater
appeal, and have a happier user base. More users means make more
money..simple

A lot of people moaned the 5d was too well featured compared to the
7d..you could have a point there..same mp, same FPS..though the lcd
and VF/build/controls were obviously better on the 7d. The gap from
A200 to A700 is huge feature wise...even if they added a good bit of
stuff..it still would be.

The main ask is MLU, and I for the life of me cannot see why anyone,
least of all yourself would object to that..

I expected better from you..
Sorry Barry, I hold my head in shame. Ok, only kidding.

I am not looking at this as a consumer but as a business major. It just does not pass any test in any sound business principle. Yes competition is part of your overall business equation and obviously Sony took this into account as they compared the bodies against their market competition.

Now putting on my electronic tech cap, you may find that some of these "upgrades" are not just software issues. Say the MLU, more than likely a capacitor is used in the circuit that raises the mirror. This may be spec'd for it's current use and not for continual drain based on the use of the MLU function. Now in honesty it's not as simple as that which you can tell by the fact that the camera can use shutter speeds of several seconds long. But, it helps to make my point.

I currently work in the production field. Believe me, when a product is designed if a lower spec electronic component can be used to save money it is done even if the product has all the appearence of being similiar to a like higher end product.

Now, morally, socially, whatever you want to call it, I do feel it is wrong to expect a manufacturer to give me free upgrades to a product I willing bought with certain features. I can't state in any plainer than that.

But, personally do I care if you guys get this, no. In fact if it makes you happy that cool.

But I think expecting it is just another symptom of the increasing trend in society of not want to take responsibality for one's decision and the "it's all about me" attitiude.

Let me explain this a different way. I am currently frustrated by the fact that a lens adapter I ordered from Fotodiox.com has not arrived. When I ordered it I told the girl I needed it by last Friday and that I would pay extra in needed for shipping to ensure it was here on time. She said it was not necessary and that it should arrrive by last Wed. So, I made the decision not to pay extra to have it here. So, am I frustrated, yes. Was Fotodoix.com wrong, sorta. But, I made the decision so ultimately I am responsible.

Maybe others don't see it that way but I do so this should show you where I am coming from.

Oh and Barry, I personnally think every SLR/DSLR should have true MLU of some sort not a restricted 2 second or some other sort of MLU form. I think it should be the simple manually locked up type lock on all my old bodies.

cheers!

--
Long live the HMS Beagle
Critiques always welcome!
 
And I am pretty sure Barry is a more advance photographer than the
80% of the target market for the A200.
Wow, have you seen any of his photographs?

David G (Njau)

A very satisfied A2 & KM 5D and Sony A100 & A700 user
 
I bet if we take a poll of lower end A mount users..the vast majority
would support MLU being put back in via firmware..
I bet if we examine the kit of the a200 users we won't find very many tripods for which MLU would even make a difference. Nor any desire on their part to buy such a tripod.

Barry, your argument of being poor does not wash. You said elsewhere in this forum you had the money to buy the a700 and did not when you could. You frittered the money away elsewhere. You choose not to buy the a700 when you could.

Walt
 
I bet if we take a poll of lower end A mount users..the vast majority
would support MLU being put back in via firmware..
I bet if we examine the kit of the a200 users we won't find very many
tripods for which MLU would even make a difference. Nor any desire
on their part to buy such a tripod.

Barry, your argument of being poor does not wash. You said elsewhere
in this forum you had the money to buy the a700 and did not when you
could. You frittered the money away elsewhere. You choose not to buy
the a700 when you could.
Sigh

I didn't say I was poor..and frankly am amazed that you would even use that word on a public forum..

FYI I decided it was a more sensible move to reduce my debt level, than splash out on camera gear..much as I would have liked to..logic prevailed.

At the time there was no way around NR raw..so that is why I didn't buy it..

Though you obviously didn't upgrade to V4 did you, as you complained that the issue was raised ;-)
 
MLU is a core component of the Minolta strategy,
it needs to be there on ALL models..IMO of course
This is one of your problems, you have not noticed that Minolta went away. It's gone, gone, gone, forever. We have a different company and they are most certainly not required to follow Minolta's business model.

You might as well get comfortable with Sony, they are what you have now. And they will certainly do things their way.

To me, because I have and use good tripods, the MLU is a useful feature, though there are ways around not having it. But with so may being anti tripod or buying substandard tripods this is a feature we very well may see less and less on cameras in the future.

I do agree with Paul, you bought a known feature set. You are an adult, responsible for your decisions. Sony is under no obligation to add to that set on existing cameras. Unless you are willing to pay for the extra.

I also doubt it would make much, if any difference in sales of the a200. It seems to be selling very well as is.

Walt
 
This is one of your problems, you have not noticed that Minolta went
away. It's gone, gone, gone, forever. We have a different company
and they are most certainly not required to follow Minolta's business
model.
Well I could be wrong but Minolta did some good things..not everything of course. Yes I do read the news..I am aware of what happened!
You might as well get comfortable with Sony, they are what you have
now. And they will certainly do things their way.
Which is sometimes good, and sometimes bad.. ;-)
To me, because I have and use good tripods, the MLU is a useful
feature, though there are ways around not having it. But with so may
being anti tripod or buying substandard tripods this is a feature we
very well may see less and less on cameras in the future.
So then you have no objections, pleased to hear it..
I do agree with Paul, you bought a known feature set. You are an
adult, responsible for your decisions. Sony is under no obligation
to add to that set on existing cameras. Unless you are willing to
pay for the extra.
We shouldn't have to pay extra for MLU, which is a very basic feature.
Yes I am responsible..but stop making excuses for poor choices on sony's part.

Oh BTW I take it you didn't upgrade to V4 firmware, because you are adult enough to know that your buying the A700 meant that it shouldn't get freebie upgrades via firmware..you have to buy a new model like everyone else..

Cough..yeah right!
 
Paul, you are in completely wrong thread as you do not use and you do not plan to use any of mentioned cameras including the A700 .

You are here just to spoil our efforts (MLU back) and that is called trolling. You are doing this for your own fun as there are no reasonable advantages to sony users in what you have said in this thread. Some canon trolls were happy with No MLU for A100 successors. They claim with satisfaction sony entry cameras to be handicapped, and use this to lead new photographers to their systems. They are obviously totally wrong but I see no reason to make canon trolls and you happy, so give us Sony an upgrade. The sony cameras are too good to give them the chance.

It will be much easier than giving by software upgrade A700 the features my A300 has, LV on second sensor and movable LCD (joke mode on) as I would chose such an A700 for sure then. You want us to pay for an upgrade, fine! that is OK with me.

The only difference between canon trolls and you Paul is that canon trolls are less harmfull as they do not try to stop us from getting the MLU back (by free or paid upgrade).

Here is another thread which refers directly to you as it is about your camera, here you can express how much you disagree.
If you do this I will believe you are non trolling here.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1037&message=30632883
 
Barry I really think someone as demanding as you should be in an
A700... prices keep failing..
And I am pretty sure Barry is a more advance photographer than the
80% of the target market for the A200.
I would certainly agree on this, Barry shot himself in the foot buying below his level as a photographer. The a700 would suit him far better, but from the get go he was against that camera and lost his opportunity to have it. His error.

Walt
 
I knew that, but I couldn't resist.
:-)
I don't know that they're waiting. They may be hard at work right
now. Don't forget that Minolta was losing money on its camera
division years before they made the 7D, so a new flash system was
probably not on the top of their list. Add to that the fact that the
big five have had their flashes manufactured by Panasonic, probably
Sony's greates rival. The new Sony 58 is probably as good as they
come, although I haven't seen any serious tests, so I could be wrong.
The Sony 58am is desgined very nicely and build quality seems just as good as the Nikon SB-900.

However its brain is not comprable to Nikon. Its evident that Nikons flash system is much more consisten then that of the Sony.

Try using spot meter with bounceflash, the Sony will underexpose, and the flash will give a "flashing" green light that it had enough power.

So while its a good buildt flash, it falls behind when it comes to brain and connectivity.
You're right on both accounts, but I'm also smart enough to realise
the potential of using the built-in flash as a trigger for remote
flashes. It's always there, it's cheap - and it can be used as AF
assistance as well.
Yes its there if you use a camera that has it. If i was to use wireless flash i rather use a external transmitter wich most likley would have better range and more reliable. Add the fact that it has more features, and a much better interface.

Now it will cost some money, what doesnt. .-)
The design part:
The prism on the A900 is a very dominant design feature. Nikon's D3
has no built-in flash, but its huge prism is still faired over in the
same fashion as on the D700. The D700 does have a built-in flash ...
and a huge prism.
Well as i already stated the the viewfinders is not equal, D3 100% and is noticble brighter.
There is plenty of room on top of the A900's prism for a built-in
flash. It would even have the advantage of being positioned quite a
bit higher than on other models, thus reducing the risk of red-eye.
But it would alter the design, just like it did on the Dynax 9 and on
the Nikon D3.
Im not sure what you mean by plenty of room, i guess if the sky is the limit sure. :-)

The A900 is already quite bit taller (with vg) then the D3, now add the
FA-HS1AM and a pocketwizard and you get the idea. .-)

I have yet to see frontal onboard flash as good lightning solution, unless you absolutely need to get the shot. And if thats the case a speedlight and a highiso capable camera is the better choice imo.
The dislike part:
To many professional photographers, a built-in flash is indicative of
an amateur camera. They have all kinds of explanations for this, but
I have yet to hear one that I can subscribe to, but I'm not a pro. I
do, however, remember when Minolta introduced the 7000, how pro
photographers and expert amateurs would say that they would never
trust a camera to focus for them ... and that it couldn't do it as
fast as they could anyway. It was merely a thing for amateurs.
Today, everything in a modern camera is automatic. The Nikon D3 even
has P-mode! Talk about a non-pro feature! So what's with the attitude
that a built-in flash is incompatible with a pro camera?
Yes i fall into that group that thinks the onboard flash is a waste on a camera.

Why ?

Not very often do i like the use of frontal flash, let alone a puny light that will cause harsh shadows and small white spots for catchlight.

Its simply not a viable option for anything i do.

Im also one of those persons that belive that AF is not the best thing since sliced bread. .-)

A onboard flash is not priortized on a pro body, most likley because its not really a feature the target group will use.

Even if you could fit both a excellen viewfinder and a onboard flash, is it worth it ? the extra height/bulk ? But also the fact pro gear should withstand some abuse, and if anything is bound to come lose, well the onboard flash will be the first thing to go.

Im fairly careful with my gear, but my D2X had a few marks on the pentaprism housing. If a onboard flash was to be seated there, it would most likley be gone.

Kindest
--
Regards
Paul L.
 
Paul, you are in completely wrong thread as you do not use and you do
not plan to use any of mentioned cameras including the A700 .
I dont even bother to qoute the rest of your rambling.

If you want to moderate the forum, im sure there is place where you can send in a application.

BUT until then i suggest stop telling people where and what they cant/can post.

The name calling and homemade label is something this particular forum seems to embrace to a whole new level, i see your no exception to that rule.

You claim you can one participate in threads that involves the gear you own !?

Well Barry for one has been quite bussy "trolling" then as you call it.

You see how silly it gets ?

Im not stopping anyone or anything.

The simple fact that you cant engage in a discussion without getting all emotional and take it personal indicates that you should really take a break, and calm down.

--
Regards
Paul L.
 
Look at the quite enormous "superstructure" of the D3 compared to the A900:





There's no reason why the A900 could not have a flash and not get any bigger than the D3. It would, of course, alter/ruin the design, but I'd choose function over form any day.
 
Look at the quite enormous "superstructure" of the D3 compared to the
A900:
There's no reason why the A900 could not have a flash and not get any
bigger than the D3. It would, of course, alter/ruin the design, but
I'd choose function over form any day.
Well the A900(with vg) is already higher then the D3, this without flash...

Diffrence is i dont see it as a function. :-)
--
Regards
Paul L.
 
You bothered to write 27 posts or so in this thread clearly expressing that you are against MLU in our cameras (A200/A300/A350) and basically any firmware upgrades for them.
Why?

But you refuse to write one post in the link, which refers to the camera you use, to express your negative feelings about firmware upgrades for A900.
Why?

Hope you also see the disproportional difference in your attitude when you calm down.
 

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