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POLL -- How Long Will the MIRROR live ???

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Terrera said:
You can´t forget that the current lenses do not fit a mirrorless SLR.
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Why not? Even if the lens register is shortened (which is a good idea, BTW), an adapter could be quite simple. Just like the FT to mFT adapter.
Terrera said:
Even if Nikon and Canon decided to get rid of the mirrors (after all,
they are currently dominating this market), they need to create a
whole new array of lenses... and this is expensive not only for the
companies as well as for us, customers.
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Sell more lenses! That's an argument for, not against, at least for the camera companies.
Terrera said:
Imagine pro having to change all their lenses because of a new
camera!
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Imagine them either not having to change, or they don't care because their employer is paying for all this stuff.
Terrera said:
But imagine not being able to sell the old equipment since the new
cameras won't fit the old lenses.
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But they would fit...
Terrera said:
And anyways... to really have a small dSLR you need a smaller
sensor...
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The smallest 35mm film SLRs were essentially the same size as an E-420.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed
 
Terrera said:
You can´t forget that the current lenses do not fit a mirrorless SLR.
Even if Nikon and Canon decided to get rid of the mirrors (after all,
they are currently dominating this market), they need to create a
whole new array of lenses... and this is expensive not only for the
companies as well as for us, customers.
Click to expand...
That's not true at all; what do you think happens when the mirror flips out of the way? It's like it was never there.

There is no need to change the mount-to-sensor distance until they are ready for a new standard. There's no obstacle to having mirrorless cameras with current spacings, and such cameras would work with all existing lenses.

Just getting rid of the mirror slap is a worthwhile endeavor; it robs cameras of stability, and draws to much attention and makes too much noise pollution.

--
John

 
I think your common sense will fall on deaf ears. It is obvious that the only real obstacle to the the replacement mirror/pentaprism is the optical quality of the EVF and the pace of development.

Can I just say that I'm quite happy with my D80 and D50, it's just that when you think about it, my cams seem to be an odd match of hi tech (image sensor) and lo tech (mirror mechanism)
 
convega08 said:
I think your common sense will fall on deaf ears. It is obvious that
the only real obstacle to the the replacement mirror/pentaprism is
the optical quality of the EVF and the pace of development.
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I'm responding because you used the word "only". There's another real obstacle to replacing the mirror and that is the mirror is needed for the prized phase detection autofocus. Until technology is developed to make an autofocus system as good and as fast, the mirror will remain.

The contrast detection autofocus used in cameras without a mirror sucks by comparison.

--mamallama
 
Point taken, but technical issues aside, this particular thread is driven by the oddity of lo tech versus hi tech (see my quote which you omitted). Lets face it who'd of thought that film (the mirror/pentaprism's original pairing) would be overtaken by todays digital image sensors.

"Can I just say that I'm quite happy with my D80 and D50, it's just that when you think about it, my cams seem to be an odd match of hi tech (image sensor) and lo tech (mirror mechanism)"
 
convega08 said:
Point taken, but technical issues aside, this particular thread is
driven by the oddity of lo tech versus hi tech (see my quote which
you omitted). Lets face it who'd of thought that film (the
mirror/pentaprism's original pairing) would be overtaken by todays
digital image sensors.

"Can I just say that I'm quite happy with my D80 and D50, it's just
that when you think about it, my cams seem to be an odd match of hi
tech (image sensor) and lo tech (mirror mechanism)"
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I use film a bit, and I was under no doubt whatsoever that digital would clearly take the mass market...I was also sure that film would continue to be used, but in smaller more specialised markets..

All it took for digital was the price to reach good levels (let's not forget todays budget DSLR's and even compacts..we very pricey 8-10 years ago).

The OVF is simply the most logical choice for the time being.

We even hear some users wanting them on compacts..and they have a point too.

By going EVF and back LCD, you have no optical route left open, I suspect that is the fatal flaw. I am sure if makers improve the contrast AF for live view, on back lcd's, that the demand for an EVF will be rather low.

Simply because something is "low tech" does not mean it is't a good choice. You need only look at the power zoom from years past..I knew that was a waste of time..and they went back to normal mechanical ones
 
Jay Turberville said:
Jay Turberville said:
Jay Turberville said:
It's like when some kid brags
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Sorry if it sounded like bragging. That was not the intent.

PS What if the 4 cylinder hardtop was a Lotus Elan?
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It'd be a nice hardtop sports car - but still not a convertible. :)
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actually, I had the use of one for awhile when i lived in Hereford/Eng
they have Ford 4cyl engine and running gear....

hmmm yeah, but that was in the 80's, ....seems like yesterday!

--
Riley

When I die I want to go peacefully sleeping like my Grandfather did...
not screaming, like the passengers in his car....
 
mamallama said:
The contrast detection autofocus used in cameras without a mirror
sucks by comparison.
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That depends on what you value. There's a reason that we see more and more DSLRs that provide the user the capability to add custom focus offsets for specific lenses. Some quite expensive cameras have also had some rather significant focus error issues that are related to temperature. Contrast detect is inherently self-calibrating and can also be made to give optimal focus for any given taking aperture. These are clear advantages over phase detect autofocus systems.

But your are right that there is more than the one impediment. One of the problems is that it seems likely that many current lenses are sub-optimal for contrast detect AF. Further, a patent search I did turned up methods that could be used to enable phase detect AF in a mirror less system. I think it would require special lenses with a built-in dual aperture mask though. Such systems would use something like a Hartmann mask or Scheiner disc and image analysis off of the main sensor. The need for new lenses like this will slow things down as would the apparent need for lenses that have been optimized to also work with contrast detect AF.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
Rriley said:
Rriley said:
Rriley said:
PS What if the 4 cylinder hardtop was a Lotus Elan?
Click to expand...
It'd be a nice hardtop sports car - but still not a convertible. :)
Click to expand...
actually, I had the use of one for awhile when i lived in Hereford/Eng
they have Ford 4cyl engine and running gear....

hmmm yeah, but that was in the 80's, ....seems like yesterday!
Click to expand...
Actually, I wouldn't mind having a little Lotus Elan convertible - like the one Emma Peel drove in The Avengers. The closest I ever got was my Mercury Capri which had a somewhat similar look.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
"Simply because something is "low tech" does not mean it is't a good choice. You need only look at the power zoom from years past..I knew that was a waste of time..and they went back to normal mechanical ones"

I'm not saying the mirror is a bad choice, merely it seems an like a quaint pairing in this digital age.

A long shot maybe, but lets hope that camera manufacturers do not introduce the EVF as cost effective option, possibly to the detriment of the usability in some cases.
 
In fact it's an inanimate object, and can't be said to be 'alive' or 'dead'.

As to whether the evf will replace the ovf... go test out a G1 and see what you think. It's neat, has some real possibilities, the auto 10x magnification for manual focus is particularly nice, the resulting image brighter and larger than what current micro dslr's can deliver, but as of right now, it still doesn't quite deliver the resolution or 'presence' of a good optical viewfinder, the operative word being 'good'. Some of the pentamirror VF's aren't much better, though the pentaprism VF's still reign supreme in the clarity department.

In addition, there's another change that would have to be implemented. Remembering that the mirror and focusing screen are pretty much a requirement for phase detection AF, a move to an EVF means a system and lenses capable of handling contrast detection AF.

So given the current economic climate, I just don't see millions of dslr owners running out to buy all new lenses, just to get an evf. It isn't that much better. What I do see happening is the evf creeping into the very small dslr's, where the current ovf stinks, and the owners place enough of an emphasis on small size that they would consider buying all new CDAF capable glass. For the advances that the evf brings, live view on a current dslr will deliver most of the advantages to the rest of us, without the expense of replacing all of our glass.

I suspect that on a pro level body, a way to integrate a 'heads up' data display into the existing pentaprism VF can be devised, so that the data display capabilities of the evf can be added, but the clarity and PDAF of the current system are maintained. Perhaps the data display could be bounced off of the focusing screen, most better dslr's already do that to indicate which focus point was used.
 
A while back Pentax filed a patent for using an electronic viewfinder overlay in the viewfinders optical path.

--
360 minutes from the prime meridian. (-5375min, 3.55sec) 1093' above sea level.

'The exposure meter is calibrated to some clearly defined standards and the user needs to adjust his working method and his subject matter to these values. It does not help to suppose all kinds of assumptions that do not exist.'
Erwin Puts
 
Why doesn't Canon come out with a fixed mirror EOS like they had before if there's such a clamor for removing the mirror. I don't see the point of moving to an EVF if you're not going to reduce the size of the cameras or lenses (ie using your old SLR lenses on this new camera).
 
Dejan Malikovski said:
That is what I was looking for! The EVF does not give "presence".
That is why I like OVF.
If you haven't understood yet, don't bother...
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You haven't seemed to understand yet that people are not asking for 2001 P&S EVFs in future DSLRs. They're asking for the future's hires-proper-color EVFs.

--
John

 
John Sheehy said:
You haven't seemed to understand yet that people are not asking for
2001 P&S EVFs in future DSLRs. They're asking for the future's
hires-proper-color EVFs.
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The only demand I see, is from the gear driven crowd..the ones that simply have to have those extra features (which we managed for long enough without).

Nobody else really gives a damn!

Is the G1 in the top 20 DSLR sales list at amazon? (they list it in this area) nope..more like 40+ something last time I checked. So this suggests that the forum folks who are going all ga ga over the EVF thing..are not representative of the buying market as a whole..

Now you could argue maybe they are holding off for the video one..well we will see when that turns up..

So you have your proper high res EVF camera out there to buy right now..

Come back and let's talk when its a super sales seller....

The only conclusion to reach so far is that "most people" are not asking for the EVF...cos they aint buying it!!! lol
 
Barry Fitzgerald said:
John Sheehy said:
You haven't seemed to understand yet that people are not asking for
2001 P&S EVFs in future DSLRs. They're asking for the future's
hires-proper-color EVFs.
Click to expand...
The only demand I see, is from the gear driven crowd..the ones that
simply have to have those extra features (which we managed for long
enough without).

Nobody else really gives a damn!

Is the G1 in the top 20 DSLR sales list at amazon? (they list it in
this area) nope..more like 40+ something last time I checked. So this
suggests that the forum folks who are going all ga ga over the EVF
thing..are not representative of the buying market as a whole..
Click to expand...
amazon posts its sales stats basen on the individual colours of this camera, and I told you that on the 13 Dec 08, just as I did again on the 6th Jan 09.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=30337532

So while you know that this is a statistic that cannot be trusted, you still flaunt it like it means something, it doesnt.

the most reliable stat we have is that G1 is 16th in Japan

NOT that it matters, this is but the first EVIL camera in sight, more will follow, many more.
Member said:
Now you could argue maybe they are holding off for the video
one..well we will see when that turns up..

So you have your proper high res EVF camera out there to buy right now..

Come back and let's talk when its a super sales seller....
Click to expand...
Fair enough, you want to base its acceptance on sales performance, I think 16th, in just a few months sales performance, is pretty dam good> And YOU can be sure we will revisit this in the not too far distant future, get ready to eat hat buddy...
Member said:
The only conclusion to reach so far is that "most people" are not
asking for the EVF...cos they aint buying it!!! lol
Click to expand...
well lets see about that, Im thinkin hat with sauce....
--
Riley

When I die I want to go peacefully sleeping like my Grandfather did...
not screaming, like the passengers in his car....
 
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