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POLL -- How Long Will the MIRROR live ???

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nickleback said:
papillon_65 said:
nickleback said:
4/3 isn't a whole lot smaller than APS-C; the real problem with
Panasonic sensors is that they have high read noise, especially at
high ISOs, because they do not employ some of the advanced readout
techniques used in Canon and Nikon sensors.
Click to expand...
or in-camera processing as its more commonly known.
Click to expand...
Readout comes before in-camera processing in the image processing
pipeline. In fact it isn't even in the pipeline. It's even before
A/D conversion. If you'd like to call this "in camera processing",
please show me an in-camera processor that works with analog data.

It's not noise reduction, it's reduced noise introduction. Here's an
explanation for CCDs, the situation is similar with CMOS.

http://spiff.rit.edu/classes/phys559/lectures/readout/readout.html

And if you'd like to pretend that the egghead who wrote the above
doesn't know imaging, you might want to know that RIT is the
Rochester Institute of Technology, which is in (you guessed it)
Rochester, New York, which also happens to be Kodak's hometown. RIT
and Kodak have a longstanding relationship.
Click to expand...
It was a flippant remark but interesting reply although I'm not sure why I'd pretend the person linked to didn't know what they were talking about?
nickleback said:
--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed
Click to expand...
--
667....Neighbour of the beast....Form is temporary, glass is permanent.
 
papillon_65 said:
It was a flippant remark but interesting reply although I'm not sure
why I'd pretend the person linked to didn't know what they were
talking about?
Click to expand...
It's because of the flip remark you made to somebody who knows what they are talking about.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed
 
Joe,

The question implies how long the SLR or DLSR will live. The answer is as long as creativity exists.

If you focus on how long with the mirror exist then you open up the possibility of replacing the mirror and mechanism with something else. I don’t think there is an acceptable replacement today but even if there were customer acceptance would suppress the technology.

Case in point is my truck. It’s about as big as they come and has a 4 speed computer controlled transmission. You could shift it with a camera thumb wheel but instead it has a big mechanical clunk shift lever so it has the feel of a “real shifter” and out of sight just a skinny electrical cable to the transmission.
--
Phil Agur

50D - Full equipment list in profile.

 
nickleback said:
papillon_65 said:
It was a flippant remark but interesting reply although I'm not sure
why I'd pretend the person linked to didn't know what they were
talking about?
Click to expand...
It's because of the flip remark you made to somebody who knows what
they are talking about.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed
Click to expand...
I don't follow your logic but keep taking the tablets anyway..
--
667....Neighbour of the beast....Form is temporary, glass is permanent.
 
papillon_65 said:
nickleback said:
papillon_65 said:
It was a flippant remark but interesting reply although I'm not sure
why I'd pretend the person linked to didn't know what they were
talking about?
Click to expand...
It's because of the flip remark you made to somebody who knows what
they are talking about.
Click to expand...
I don't follow your logic but keep taking the tablets anyway..
Click to expand...
You made a flip remark...

"or in-camera processing as its more commonly known."

to somebody who knows what they are talking about (check posting history if you like). So I referenced another site with somebody else who knows what they are talking about, and added a bit about that.

Get it? Got it? Good.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed
 
nickleback said:
papillon_65 said:
nickleback said:
papillon_65 said:
It was a flippant remark but interesting reply although I'm not sure
why I'd pretend the person linked to didn't know what they were
talking about?
Click to expand...
It's because of the flip remark you made to somebody who knows what
they are talking about.
Click to expand...
I don't follow your logic but keep taking the tablets anyway..
Click to expand...
You made a flip remark...

"or in-camera processing as its more commonly known."

to somebody who knows what they are talking about (check posting
history if you like). So I referenced another site with somebody
else who knows what they are talking about, and added a bit about
that.

Get it? Got it? Good.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed
Click to expand...
uh oh, sense of humour failure alert, take a chill pill while your at it ;O)

--
667....Neighbour of the beast....Form is temporary, glass is permanent.
 
Seems I recall C/N boasting of hundreds of lenses, but most of them were old legacy film lenses, many of which wouldn't AF. Some of the current 4/3 ZD's will be converted to CDAF.

Besides, MF on the G1 is so good that AF isn't absolutely necessary. Automatic 10x magnification when you turn the focus ring. Very nice.
 
TrapperJohn said:
Seems I recall C/N boasting of hundreds of lenses, but most of them
were old legacy film lenses, many of which wouldn't AF.
Click to expand...
All Canon EF lenses AF on all Canon EOS bodies. In addition, all EF-S lenses work on all APS-C bodies starting with the 20D and 300D. And there are also many third party lens, including ones for APS-C, that AF on all EOS bodies.
TrapperJohn said:
Besides, MF on the G1 is so good that AF isn't absolutely necessary.
Automatic 10x magnification when you turn the focus ring. Very nice.
Click to expand...
I agree. Current EOS bodies can do the same thing in live view, but it isn't quite as slick -- you have to press the + button (under your thumb) to zoom in, and of course you can only see this on the back panel.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed
 
nickleback said:
nickleback said:
Besides, MF on the G1 is so good that AF isn't absolutely necessary.
Automatic 10x magnification when you turn the focus ring. Very nice.
Click to expand...
I agree. Current EOS bodies can do the same thing in live view, but
it isn't quite as slick -- you have to press the + button (under your
thumb) to zoom in, and of course you can only see this on the back
panel.
Click to expand...
Ummm - it is so different on the EOS body (and every other live view equipped DSLR that I know of) that it doesn't really make sense to say that these cameras "do the same thing." The two differences you noted are pretty huge.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
rsn48 said:
Many coming into the DSLR age are coming from a P&S background and
are brainwashed into the electronic view finder.
Click to expand...
The brainwashing is a two-way street. Many people using DSLRs who came from the film SLR world have rather incorrect notions about the nature of the image that their DSLR delivers to their eye.
rsn48 said:
I suspect if DSLR's go EFV, that the upper pro cameras will still
sport a view finder as well as the EFV.
Click to expand...
You mean an OVF - optical viewfinder. An EVF is a viewfinder. And yes, optical viewfinders still have advantages. You won't see them eliminated from pro level and top amateur level cameras until well after those limitations have been overcome. I say "well past" because I'm sure that there are a significant number of people who will resist change regardless of the practical realities.

In the near term, I'd hope and expect to see more variety in add-on EVF and live view extension equipment. Top pro cameras will give users the option to operate in either mode. This hearkens back to the days when pro DSLRs had interchangeable finders. Live view and various EVFs can replace all or most of those functions where the standard OVF falls a bit short.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
the application of video may well be a deciding factor
EVF are the only sensible way to deliver video control

--
Riley

When I die I want to go peacefully sleeping like my Grandfather did...
not screaming, like the passengers in his car....
 
Rriley said:
the gear Panasonic exhibit right now in G1 is really just cut and
shut from video so its actually pretty crude.
Click to expand...
Crude? It uses LCOS technology - the same that Panasonic is using on their high end professional video cameras - which means their HD video cameras. It is actually fairly advanced. But, of course, it will almost surely advance even further.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
Jay Turberville said:
Jay Turberville said:
Jay Turberville said:
Besides, MF on the G1 is so good that AF isn't absolutely necessary.
Automatic 10x magnification when you turn the focus ring. Very nice.
Click to expand...
I agree. Current EOS bodies can do the same thing in live view, but
it isn't quite as slick -- you have to press the + button (under your
thumb) to zoom in, and of course you can only see this on the back
panel.
Click to expand...
Ummm - it is so different on the EOS body (and every other live view
equipped DSLR that I know of) that it doesn't really make sense to
say that these cameras "do the same thing." The two differences you
noted are pretty huge.
Click to expand...
Which is why I wrote that it wasn't quite as slick. My main point was to agree that it makes manual focus a lot easier.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed
 
nickleback said:
nickleback said:
nickleback said:
nickleback said:
Besides, MF on the G1 is so good that AF isn't absolutely necessary.
Automatic 10x magnification when you turn the focus ring. Very nice.
Click to expand...
I agree. Current EOS bodies can do the same thing in live view, but
it isn't quite as slick -- you have to press the + button (under your
thumb) to zoom in, and of course you can only see this on the back
panel.
Click to expand...
Ummm - it is so different on the EOS body (and every other live view
equipped DSLR that I know of) that it doesn't really make sense to
say that these cameras "do the same thing." The two differences you
noted are pretty huge.
Click to expand...
Which is why I wrote that it wasn't quite as slick. My main point
was to agree that it makes manual focus a lot easier.
Click to expand...
Right. And my point is that it isn't even the same. It's barely even similar. One is automatic at eye level or on LCD. The other is not automatic and provides an image only on the fixed LCD panel.

It's like when some kid brags to another about his dad's new V8 convertible sports car and the other kid responds that his dad's car is the same - except it has a 4 cylinder and a hardtop - but you can roll down all the windows and it gets real windy inside.

If your main point was to agree that it makes manual focus a lot easier, then why back it up with such a poor comparison to a camera that does not have that feature?

I have an E-330 that gives me manual focus on the LCD at the push of a button. But it too is not the same as what the G1 offers. Saying it is - even with qualifications - discounts the handiness of the feature.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
Quote:
John Sheehy said:
BUT ... even when 99% "optical" quality; we cannot forget the 100's
of ADDITIONAL FEATURES THAT CAN THEN BE ADDED.
Click to expand...
Features that I frankly don't give a damn about ;-)
John Sheehy said:
In other words we will no longer be "limited" to only a basic optical
viewfinder.
Click to expand...
Which is exactly what I want..
John Sheehy said:
Auto exposure could be done differently, with overexposure indication
visible in the viewfinder.
Click to expand...
What happened to learning about metering?
My thoughts:

1.Additional features that are not Shutter Speed, Aperture, ISO value, would mostly be turned off. So I don't care for them.

2.Optical view is the thing that I like most in DSLR. I find myself very "unlimited" by it.
3.Metering is the alphabet of photography.

17.I adore CCD sensors with lower pixel density. (not relevant here)

18. Smaller and smaller cameras, ruin the ergonomics. Most noticeable in XXXD series.

--



http://www.dmalikovski.deviantart.com/gallery
 
You can´t forget that the current lenses do not fit a mirrorless SLR. Even if Nikon and Canon decided to get rid of the mirrors (after all, they are currently dominating this market), they need to create a whole new array of lenses... and this is expensive not only for the companies as well as for us, customers.

Imagine pro having to change all their lenses because of a new camera! Today, if you decide to change camera systems (ie: canon to nikon or vice-versa) is already really hard, but possible, because there are people out there that yould buy to put in new cameras.... But imagine not being able to sell the old equipment since the new cameras won't fit the old lenses.

Therefore, to make this change, it will take many, many, many years....

And anyways... to really have a small dSLR you need a smaller sensor... for a Micro FourThirds sensor to have the same quality as an FF sensor in all respects (noise, DR, MP), it will take even more time... and you bokeh will never ever be the same in smaller sensors.

Perhaps for sports photography small sensors may be excellent because they reduce dramatically the size of the lenses.... but I doubt the mirrow will ever be substituted.

--
Felipe Teixeira

Fuji A310 (drowned)
Oly C770 (stolen)
Nikkormat (shutter won't work)
Nikon FM - Nikkor 50mm F1.8 (gotta love it)
Nikon D40 + kit (so far, so good)

http://terrera.multiply.com
 
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