Who do you think has the best approach to a DSLR range?

However much you think that Olympus cameras and lenses are fantastic,
it is still difficult to get hold of and it is still overpriced.
Guess you missed this then:
From B&H
E-3 +12-60mm + FL-50R flash= $2318.95

D700=$2996.95
14-24mm=$1484.95
Nikon SB 900 AF Speedlight flash=399.95
$4884.95
Quite the difference.

I also thought it amusing that you chose to throw in the 7-14 UWA just to bump up the price. By most accounts, it's one of, if not the STANDARD for UWA lenses, regarded as the best.
--
Stuart / the Two Truths
http://twotruths.net/
--
shinndigg
http://www.pbase.com/shinndigg
 
Remember, not all brands have fully flushed out, and even Nikon and Canon are in continuous shift.

Nikon is probably the only one that has a structure to the lineup that will last for a while as they have go them all in place, in the right places.

cheap (D40), entry level (D60) , advanced entry (D90), semi-pro APS (D300), semi-pro FF (D700), Pro Fast (D3), Pro Res (D3X)

Canon hasn't exactly got this hammered out yet. The only last year introduced a cheap model, before they kept recycling their old entry levels. But they have taken their semi-pro APS and turned it into an advanced entry level body. Canon needs to bring out a semi-pro APS body again (7D).

cheap (1000D), entry level (450D), advanced entry (50D), semi-pro APS (missing), semi-pro FF (5D), pro fast (1D), pro res (1Ds) .

Now for both, it could be said there is one more missing body for both. The semi-pro FF class could be split into fast and res like pro. Right now 2 brands have gone Semi-Pro Res FF (5DII, A900) and 1 has gone semi-pro fast FF (D700).

Where things get weird is Sony. Sony is clearly working towards full line. But isn't their yet. As such, they have split some of the bodies on task.

Cheap (A200), entry level (A300/A350), advanced entry (A350/A700), semi-pro APS ( partial A700 coverage), semi-pro FF (A900), Pro Fast (not yet), Pro Res (not yet).

The A700 looks like it was made to try and cover the D80 and D300 with one body, thus falls in the middle. And the D80 spot is also approached by the A350, which spills over a bit as they have 2 entry level bodies. I suspect this will all change in the coming months.

If Sony brings an A500 which I think many folks expect (I do anyways at PMA), they will have a D90 type body (re-incarnated A700 are lower price), and the A700 will get replaced by something more high end to match up more with the A900 and the nikon "D400" which should come the same time. Once they do that, and retire one of the 3 series bodies, or push out the A200 and have the A300 take the spot, Sony will have a similar lineup to nikon, just a different path on semi-pro FF, and Sony hasn't brought pro bodies yet, but they will.

The others are hard to count since they aren't going for full systems. Pentax currently has decide to do

cheap (K2000D) , entry (K200D), advanced amature (K20D). And looks like they might bring a semi-pro (K1D).

They have riding the tween ground for a while. The K#0D line isn't really Semi-Pro, but they are darn good advanced amateur bodies. They have definitely pushing the bang for the buck with a different feature segment at the various price points. But with no apparent Full Frame or Pro body plans it's hard to compare them with the big 3. Maybe if they hadn't messed around with the 645D things would be clearer.

Olympus doesn't really try. And is heading towards a do-over. They might have a couple reflex body updates left through this year. But they will almost certainly be doing a do over and making the whole line micro-4/3rds. And at that point they will simply be too different to even compare (was hard to compare even with macro-4/3rds). As they go micro it could be interesting to see where things fall. I expect the E3 replacement to be a micro body. Where in the market will that end up?
 
Forgot about this. It's always amusing to see what people like to discuss when they're given a topic :)

Personally, I think Nikon have got it right:

Entry level - D60
Enthusiasts - D80
Semi pro - D300
FF High Res - D700x - not available yet (ever)
FF Low Res D700

That seems to me a good, balanced approach to a lineup. There's incentives to upgrade each time and you can get some very tough kit without paying top whack - ala D300.

Canon just seem to low-ball a bit, they don't seem to give you anything really pro-specced until you get to their 1D models, and all of their models just seem to give the Nikons some advantage. Sure the 40D/50D are very nice, but they're not D300s. The 450 lacks the controls of the bigger bodies - the D90 is a lot closer in usage to models up the range. Either Nikon are generous or Canon are stingy - sure you pay a premium for the Nikon but it always seems worth it, and people buying enthusiast/semi-pro level cameras are probably quite... enthusiastic about getting good models :)

Sony... Well they're fleshing things out but I'd like to see their next a700/a900 go a bit higher spec in terms of AF and body toughness. I'd like to see something between the a300/350, which are quite oddball, and the a700 - almost an a700 with a pentamirror and smaller buffer.

Sorry for not mentioning Oly and Pentax - I just don't know enough about them or anyone who shoots them.

--
Please visit my galleries at:
http://www.jaggerbramley.com
 
Seriously I know people which are happy with Canon, Nikon, Pentax and Minolta/sony.

For me Olympus was the best solution.( And I am seriously happy with it). Potability is essential for me, thus size and weight. I have an e420, and the upgrade path ( if needed) is e3: weatherproof and better viewfinder.

If I woudl have e.g. Nikon D3 with good glass, I woudl have lousy pictures: It woudl be to big and heavy for me, so I woudl use some bad P&S instead. ( the best pictures you will always get with the camera you have with you, not the one at home in your capboard...)

To put it differently: There is not best approach, if you are not defining "Best". best for what, or best for who...

cheers

r.
 
This post went way off topic because I dared to suggest that Pentax
should have been included in the original post but not Olympus.

My reasoning was based on the available and cost of equipment from
major retailers in the UK. Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Pentax equipment
is all widely available at reasonable prices. Olympus has only
limited available and is usually more expensive than its competitors.

However much you think that Olympus cameras and lenses are fantastic,
it is still difficult to get hold of and it is still overpriced.
--
Stuart / the Two Truths
http://twotruths.net/
You keep coming on here and spouting the same old nonsense with regards to the capability of Olympus cameras and lenses. Your arguments are spurious and ill informed at best. Nobody is arguing against your right to choose your own brand based on your needs but to keep denigrating Olympus in the way you are is quite ridiculous. Let me give you an example.

You have stated that Olympus cameras would not be any good for shooting the available light events that you shoot. Well I looked at the exif data of some of your shots and you seem to shoot a lot at 135mm f4 1/60 second. So what is it about Olympus that isn't capable of that? An E-3 sporting the humble 70-300mm would be f4 at 140mm and give you that speed at ISO 1600 so where is the problem?

What about the 14-54mm giving you 108mm at 3.5 or the 50-200mm giving you f2.8 at efl of 400mm or for close up work the sigma 1.4. If I was earning money from it I would invest in more expensive glass and could quite happily use the cheap E-520 at ISO400 and get just as good if not better results.

Please don't give me the spurious argument that Oly cameras can't focus in that sort of light either. In the photo's you have taken there is more than enough contrast for any of my lenses and camera's to focus including the kit lenses. I have had my 70-300mm focus at efl 600mm in that kind of light.

If you have people unable to use Oly camera's in those conditions then they either haven't set them up properly/have the wrong lenses or are incompetent.

My Oly C-5050 bridge camera could take pictures the equal of those up to 105mm no problem.

Nobody is saying Olympus is the best camera in all conditions or has the cheapest prices but you get what you pay for and all established Olympus users recognise this.

Please don't come on here and tell us that our camera's and lenses are incapable when you quite clearly have little or no experience with them and don't know what you are talking about.

If you want to shoot a black cat in coal mine then yes Oly isn't your best choice but for event shooting like yours there are plenty of choices for the Oly user.

For a real budget option I could use an E-520, my Vivitar series 1 70-210 (Cost £21 on ebay ) which would be f4 efl 420mm and focus manually using liveview on a tripod and easily take concert shots sharp as a tack.

For high speed indoors sports events then there are cheaper options but then we are already more than aware of this.

I would also suggest that if cost is the be all and end all to you then you would be better served by ditching Sony and going with either Canon or Nikon.
--
667....Neighbour of the beast....Form is temporary, glass is permanent.
 
Beltane / Samhuinn are the fire festivals, albeit I had to skip Samhuinn this year due to ill health (had an operation in hospital). However; my reference to those festivals was meant to indicate my experience in the field, I am not claiming that my views represent the Beltane Society.

Yes, I have noticed that US and UK prices are difference from some other responses to this thread. It is a pity, because many manufacturers have begun offering similar prices in the UK to the US for most of their products.
--
Stuart / the Two Truths
http://twotruths.net/
 
That was a pretty dumb comparison.

Olympus E-3 = semi-pro dSLR
12-60mm = good amauter all-rounder lens
FL-50R = okay flash

Nikon D700 = superior fullf-rame dSLR
14-24mm = fantastic pro full-frame ultra-wide angle lens
Nikon SB-900 = superior flash

However; fair enough that Olympus charges less extortionate prices in the US than the UK. It is a pity, however, that whilst the major manufacturers have started charging fairer prices in the UK, Olympus is not.

--
Stuart / the Two Truths
http://twotruths.net/
 
You keep coming on here and spouting the same old nonsense with
regards to the capability of Olympus cameras and lenses. Your
arguments are spurious and ill informed at best. Nobody is arguing
against your right to choose your own brand based on your needs but
to keep denigrating Olympus in the way you are is quite ridiculous.
Let me give you an example.
You have stated that Olympus cameras would not be any good for
shooting the available light events that you shoot. Well I looked at
the exif data of some of your shots and you seem to shoot a lot at
135mm f4 1/60 second. So what is it about Olympus that isn't capable
of that? An E-3 sporting the humble 70-300mm would be f4 at 140mm and
give you that speed at ISO 1600 so where is the problem?
Wow! Are you trying to show that you can be the most ignorant?

Firstly, when I said I would not consider a photographer using an Olympus dSLR I was talking in my role as organiser of Beltane (note: my personal views are not representative of the society). Therefore looking at the last (very well lit) gig and cherry picking the EXIF from a few of those photos does not help your case.

Instead of cherry-picking to find the brightest-lit photo I have taken in a year, why not use a more typical example of lighting... E.g. http://www.flickr.com/photos/two_truths/sets/72157607638624608/

Oops! Are some of those photos taken at ISO 3200, F2.0? Good luck in trying to use your E-520 at ISO 400 to cover those events!

Secondly, if you understand anything about low-light photography then you will understand that the maximum aperture is just as important as the aperture shot with. The maximum aperture is used so you can see through the viewfinder - and - so the camera can autofocus. Most serious dSLRs have AF lines dedicated to enable large aperture lenses to work in difficult lighting.

Thirdly; whereas I agree that the Olympus E-3 could probably handle ISO 1600, it does severely lack dynamic range at higher ISOs. The event you referred to had very harsh lighting, such that the highlights were clipping even with my A700. The E-3 gives a full stop less dynamic range, so it would suffer horribly in the same conditions.

--
Stuart / the Two Truths
http://twotruths.net/
 
Wow! Are you trying to show that you can be the most ignorant?

Firstly, when I said I would not consider a photographer using an
Olympus dSLR I was talking in my role as organiser of Beltane (note:
my personal views are not representative of the society). Therefore
looking at the last (very well lit) gig and cherry picking the EXIF
from a few of those photos does not help your case.
I just picked the photo's from the first couple of pages but to move onto your next spurious argument.
Instead of cherry-picking to find the brightest-lit photo I have
taken in a year, why not use a more typical example of lighting...
E.g. http://www.flickr.com/photos/two_truths/sets/72157607638624608/
Oops! Are some of those photos taken at ISO 3200, F2.0? Good luck
in trying to use your E-520 at ISO 400 to cover those events!
So I could use the E-520 and the sigma 1.4 or the E-3 and Sigma 1.4 or the E-3 and some legacy glass, how bright do you want it? Do I need autofocus? she's hardly racing around is she lol and you forgot to mention how close you were.
Secondly, if you understand anything about low-light photography then
you will understand that the maximum aperture is just as important as
the aperture shot with. The maximum aperture is used so you can see
through the viewfinder
No! really! I don't know how I've managed to focus my legacy lenses, it must be pure luck.
  • and - so the camera can autofocus. Most
serious dSLRs have AF lines dedicated to enable large aperture lenses
to work in difficult lighting.
So the E-3's 100% viewfinder is not good enough for you? I forgot as well, you couldn't use liveview as you don't have it on the A-700 so focusing would be an issue with legacy lenses ( if they can be used of course ) as well. Give me a break on the grid lines, I can shoot lowlight using the C-5050's viewfinder if I have too and that is tiny.

Of course, how could I know anything about the dark art of low light photography?
I'm an Oly user.
Thirdly; whereas I agree that the Olympus E-3 could probably handle
ISO 1600, it does severely lack dynamic range at higher ISOs. The
event you referred to had very harsh lighting, such that the
highlights were clipping even with my A700. The E-3 gives a full
stop less dynamic range, so it would suffer horribly in the same
conditions.
Never heard of bracketing or blending or HDR? all bright lights clip in that environment, its called contrast and it usually adds to the mood. Why would you try to capture the whole dynamic range in that situation? even our eyes aren't capable of that! but don't tell me, your A-700 is better than the human eye right?

Oh and let us know when Sony include ISO 100 on your camera so you can regain some quality on your landscapes shots oh and not forgetting your pre-processed "RAW" files which aren't really RAW at all lol and you're criticising the E-3! No wonder the A-700 is $300 cheaper, its got no Liveview or articulating LCD. I'd happily pay the extra and some for those alone.
If you want ignorant go and check your mirror.
--
Stuart / the Two Truths
http://twotruths.net/
I'd settle for a grain of truth at the moment...
--
667....Neighbour of the beast....Form is temporary, glass is permanent.
 
That was a pretty dumb comparison.

Olympus E-3 = semi-pro dSLR
12-60mm = good amauter all-rounder lens
FL-50R = okay flash

Nikon D700 = superior fullf-rame dSLR
14-24mm = fantastic pro full-frame ultra-wide angle lens
Nikon SB-900 = superior flash

However; fair enough that Olympus charges less extortionate prices in
the US than the UK. It is a pity, however, that whilst the major
manufacturers have started charging fairer prices in the UK, Olympus
is not.
Seeing as I don't live in the UK, I can't say one way or the other. I consistently hear griping (justifiably) that those in the UK get raked across the coals.
--
Stuart / the Two Truths
http://twotruths.net/
--
shinndigg
http://www.pbase.com/shinndigg
 
That was a pretty dumb comparison.

Olympus E-3 = semi-pro dSLR
12-60mm = good amauter all-rounder lens
FL-50R = okay flash

Nikon D700 = superior fullf-rame dSLR
14-24mm = fantastic pro full-frame ultra-wide angle lens
Nikon SB-900 = superior flash

However; fair enough that Olympus charges less extortionate prices in
the US than the UK. It is a pity, however, that whilst the major
manufacturers have started charging fairer prices in the UK, Olympus
is not.

--
Here's a better one :

Sony A-700 - £564
Olympus E-3 - £919

So what extra do you get for the additional £355 cost -

1. Weathersealed body

2. Actual ISO 100 (extra stop DR in the highlights according to DPR against the A-700)
3. RAW is RAW and not NR treated pseudo RAW like the A-700

4. Articulating LCD Screen- ( Ever tried using a viewfinder low down on a tripod)

5.Liveview - Excellent for macro focusing using 10x Magnification on LCD and also manual focusing on legacy glass.

6. Ability to use almost all legacy glass effectively (with a mount adaptor) - with image stabilisation
7.Increased telephoto range (2x efl)

8.Excellent glass throughout the range, sharp from corner to corner and throughout
apertures (bar 1 or 2 exceptions )
9.Increased DOF
10. Class leading OOC jpegs
11. 100% OVF
12. Top view LCD - saves on battery life and time
13. Superfast focus with SWD lenses.
14. A dustbuster that actually works
15. IS that is good for at least 2-3 stops and not 1-1.5.

And what have we lost

1.Marginally shallower DOF - but with legacy glass its not an issue anymore.

2.Marginally better high ISO performance with the A-700 (usable 3200 against 1600 but the E-30 sensor has cracked it now.)
3. Focus assist lamp

erm... thats about it, its not looking so expensive now is it.
--
667....Neighbour of the beast....Form is temporary, glass is permanent.
 
Instead of cherry-picking to find the brightest-lit photo I have
taken in a year, why not use a more typical example of lighting...
E.g. http://www.flickr.com/photos/two_truths/sets/72157607638624608/
Oops! Are some of those photos taken at ISO 3200, F2.0? Good luck
in trying to use your E-520 at ISO 400 to cover those events!
So I could use the E-520 and the sigma 1.4 or the E-3 and Sigma 1.4
or the E-3 and some legacy glass, how bright do you want it?
If you had a 100mm F1.4 lens that was sharp wide open then that would do the job fine. A soft 30mm F1.4 is not really so helpful.
Do I
need autofocus?
Yes. It is nearly impossible to get a sharp focus in difficult lighting when you are using a tele lens at larger apertures.
she's hardly racing around is she lol and you forgot
to mention how close you were.
You might have noticed that Amanda had one leg in a cast. Otherwise; she is a lot more active than that, as any of her fans could tell you.

I was close enough to get head-and-shoulders shots with my 135mm F1.8 ZA. That is about average for photographing a gig from the pit.
So the E-3's 100% viewfinder is not good enough for you?
LoL! Please tell me you are joking, right?

The E-3's viewfinder is pretty nice, I will give you that. However if I were going to pick a dSLR for manual focusing in difficult lighting I would pick a 35mm full-frame dSLR, because their viewfinders are much bigger and brighter.
Of course, how could I know anything about the dark art of low light
photography?
Apparently very little! But you are hilarious.
Thirdly; whereas I agree that the Olympus E-3 could probably handle
ISO 1600, it does severely lack dynamic range at higher ISOs. The
event you referred to had very harsh lighting, such that the
highlights were clipping even with my A700. The E-3 gives a full
stop less dynamic range, so it would suffer horribly in the same
conditions.
Never heard of bracketing or blending or HDR?
And you just keep getting funnier!

Gigs are one of the most challenging environments to capture photographs in, with moving subjects, extremely ropey schedules, stunts and other surprises. Nobody stays still for 3/5ths of a second and you only have one chance to capture the perfect image.
Why would you try to capture the whole dynamic range in that
situation?
Oh jeesh, this is getting silly.
even our eyes aren't capable of that! but don't tell me,
your A-700 is better than the human eye right?
Certainly not but the human eye is a lot more capable than your E-3 in the same circumstances ;o)

Sorry but you went even more beyond silliness after that point.

Thanks for all of the fine humour!

--
Stuart / the Two Truths
http://twotruths.net/
 
Until the D90, Nikon's lineup was quirky because they didn't have an affordable enthusiast model competing with the A700/50D (the D80 was a little long in the tooth, though nice & cheap). The D300 was an odd duck, maybe the best APS-C camera ever to be produced, just prior to more affordable FF. Meanwhile, the D3 & D700 are great cameras, but the new 24MP model was announced at a too high price. Canon seems to have the lineup down pretty well; entry level, midrange, entry level FF and pro FF (not sure if I'm missing anything in there). I don't know how they compete at entry level; Nikon has more offerings and, I think, cheaper offerings, while Canon's Rebel is a little pricey but I never know if the previous model is still in production or if they're selling out old stock.

Nobody else offers a lineup that competes at so many points in the market. The Sony A900 is a nice enough competitor in the affordable FF range, and will appeal to some landscape/fine art enthusiasts, but isn't a pro camera. The A700 is a nice midrange model and the A200 and A300 are actually among the best consumer cameras out there. (The A350 is an odd duck at 14MP with no good way to do critical focus or DOF preview with a tiny VF and low res LCD).

As for Pentax & Oly, I think it's hard to make the case for any company offering a great range of products if they're sitting on 10% or less of the market. It simply has to be Canon or Nikon. They leapfrog each other. Heads, tails, take your pick :)
  • Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
 
lol

You Olympus trolls are so funny.

I will give you that the Olympus E-3 has decent weathersealing, however so does the Pentax K20D. Personally I have used my Alpha 700 in torrential downpours without a glitch, so I have no worries.

Oh yes, Sony's image stabilisation is so ineffective that I can only get consistently sharp shots at 1/20sec with my 135mm lens. Hmmm... that works out to be a good 3 stops of stabilisation. But you must know best ;o)

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydslra700/page20.asp
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympuse3/page21.asp

The Olympus E-3 manages pretty well at ISO 100 (+0.5 EV) to 200 (+0.2EV), fair enough, but with a little more shadow detail and slightly less highlight detail. Personally; I hardly ever shoot lower than ISO 800 at which point the Sony Alpha 700 has at least a stop more dynamic range than the E-3.

By the way; I only shoot RAW, and the Olympus E-3 is well known for its shortcomings with RAW headroom, so JPEG dynamic range is not really relevant to me.

I also personally consider that dynamic range is less important than tonal range or colour accuracy. The Olympus E-3 fares pretty well at both, better than its dynamic range, but still not quite as good as any of its competition.

I also enjoy the flexibility given by fast UDMA cards, so camera-to-card write speeds of 10MB/sec do not really impress me very much. The Sony Alpha 700 can manage 36MB/sec camera-to-card, which is a tad more impressive.

What I would also lose is a glorious 3" 640x480xRGB LCD that is easily viewable from wide angles, compared to your poxy 2.5" 320x240xRGB LCD that is hardly useable for anything except histrograms.

--
Stuart / the Two Truths
http://twotruths.net/
 
Instead of cherry-picking to find the brightest-lit photo I have
taken in a year, why not use a more typical example of lighting...
E.g. http://www.flickr.com/photos/two_truths/sets/72157607638624608/
Oops! Are some of those photos taken at ISO 3200, F2.0? Good luck
in trying to use your E-520 at ISO 400 to cover those events!
So I could use the E-520 and the sigma 1.4 or the E-3 and Sigma 1.4
or the E-3 and some legacy glass, how bright do you want it?
If you had a 100mm F1.4 lens that was sharp wide open then that would
do the job fine. A soft 30mm F1.4 is not really so helpful.
Oh I see, so now 1.4 is not good enough - according to your exif data you were as close as 20mm.
Do I
need autofocus?
Yes. It is nearly impossible to get a sharp focus in difficult
lighting when you are using a tele lens at larger apertures.
I just don't know how people used to manage years ago without AF in these situations.
she's hardly racing around is she lol and you forgot
to mention how close you were.
You might have noticed that Amanda had one leg in a cast. Otherwise;
she is a lot more active than that, as any of her fans could tell you.
You told me to look at those shots and I did and gave you several plausible setups, so now you're not shooting at 20mm anymore? Those goalposts just keep moving.
I was close enough to get head-and-shoulders shots with my 135mm F1.8
ZA. That is about average for photographing a gig from the pit.
So the E-3's 100% viewfinder is not good enough for you?
LoL! Please tell me you are joking, right?

The E-3's viewfinder is pretty nice, I will give you that. However
if I were going to pick a dSLR for manual focusing in difficult
lighting I would pick a 35mm full-frame dSLR, because their
viewfinders are much bigger and brighter.
I've already explained liveview and 10x magnification - what about it do you not understand?
Of course, how could I know anything about the dark art of low light
photography?
Apparently very little! But you are hilarious.
I'm in good company then.
Thirdly; whereas I agree that the Olympus E-3 could probably handle
ISO 1600, it does severely lack dynamic range at higher ISOs. The
event you referred to had very harsh lighting, such that the
highlights were clipping even with my A700. The E-3 gives a full
stop less dynamic range, so it would suffer horribly in the same
conditions.
Never heard of bracketing or blending or HDR?
And you just keep getting funnier!
Obviously you have no knowledge of HDR using a single RAW file. Not HDR in the truest sense but will expand the DR of a photo if you know what you are doing. Having said that you don't get true RAW files anyway so you'd be at a disadavantge but its still doable on your plastic toy.
Gigs are one of the most challenging environments to capture
photographs in, with moving subjects, extremely ropey schedules,
stunts and other surprises. Nobody stays still for 3/5ths of a
second and you only have one chance to capture the perfect image.
I'm glad you told me, I'd never have guessed it although you are wrong yet again as there are plenty of pregnant pauses throughout a lot of gigs, it just depends on the performers unless of course you specialise in thrash metal gigs. 1/30 second will get you plenty of decent shots in a lot of situations, of course faster is better but when the action gets faster the lights usually go up anyway. I've never seen performers jumping around with no light.
Why would you try to capture the whole dynamic range in that
situation?
Oh jeesh, this is getting silly.
Elaborate as ever.
even our eyes aren't capable of that! but don't tell me,
your A-700 is better than the human eye right?
Certainly not but the human eye is a lot more capable than your E-3
in the same circumstances ;o)
Haven't I already said that? You're blind as well as stupid.
Sorry but you went even more beyond silliness after that point.

Thanks for all of the fine humour!
Its me who should be thanking you. The point I'm making is not that the E-3 is the best for low light shooting ( because it obviously isn't although it can be good in the right hands with a decent lens. ) but it is significantly more versatile than your Sony A-700. It blows it away on many counts which is why it is the price that it is. We'd all love it to be cheaper but its not and compared to what it offers it is good value as an all round package. I don't expect you to understand that because clearly You're not capable.
--
Stuart / the Two Truths
http://twotruths.net/
--
667....Neighbour of the beast....Form is temporary, glass is permanent.
 
lol

You Olympus trolls are so funny.
Trolling? I'm just correcting your many inaccuracies.
I will give you that the Olympus E-3 has decent weathersealing,
however so does the Pentax K20D. Personally I have used my Alpha 700
in torrential downpours without a glitch, so I have no worries.
You mention a different camera every time, as I said before, do you own all of these models? it must have cost you a fortune.
I'm sure the circuitry of your Sony will be thanking you in due course.
Oh yes, Sony's image stabilisation is so ineffective that I can only
get consistently sharp shots at 1/20sec with my 135mm lens. Hmmm...
that works out to be a good 3 stops of stabilisation. But you must
know best ;o)
Just repeatiing DPR's findings.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydslra700/page20.asp
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympuse3/page21.asp

The Olympus E-3 manages pretty well at ISO 100 (+0.5 EV) to 200
(+0.2EV), fair enough, but with a little more shadow detail and
slightly less highlight detail. Personally; I hardly ever shoot
lower than ISO 800 at which point the Sony Alpha 700 has at least a
stop more dynamic range than the E-3.

By the way; I only shoot RAW, and the Olympus E-3 is well known for
its shortcomings with RAW headroom, so JPEG dynamic range is not
really relevant to me.

I also personally consider that dynamic range is less important than
tonal range or colour accuracy. The Olympus E-3 fares pretty well at
both, better than its dynamic range, but still not quite as good as
any of its competition.
Oh, dynamic range was the be all and end all previously, now its colour accuracy.

Olympus is lauded for its colour rendition, people buy them specifically for that so wrong again.
I also enjoy the flexibility given by fast UDMA cards, so
camera-to-card write speeds of 10MB/sec do not really impress me very
much. The Sony Alpha 700 can manage 36MB/sec camera-to-card, which
is a tad more impressive.
Wow! do you use a stopwatch to record the times? Ever heard of a buffer?
What I would also lose is a glorious 3" 640x480xRGB LCD that is
easily viewable from wide angles, compared to your poxy 2.5"
320x240xRGB LCD that is hardly useable for anything except
histrograms.
And drains the battery. Does it even compare to an articulating LCD? I don't think so, ask any macro/studio photographer or someone who shoots from creative angles.

I'm bored now, you stick with your A-700 and I 'll stick to Olympus but please don't keep on your incessant whining about a brand you neither own or know anything about.
--
Stuart / the Two Truths
http://twotruths.net/
--
667....Neighbour of the beast....Form is temporary, glass is permanent.
 
Until the D90, Nikon's lineup was quirky because they didn't have an
affordable enthusiast model competing with the A700/50D (the D80 was
a little long in the tooth, though nice & cheap).
I don't think it was odd - I think you've explained it yourself - the D80 was just a little long in the tooth. I also don't think the D90 competes with the A700/40D/50D - I think it's below those 2, ableit newer which helps mask a lot of the shortcomings.
The D300 was an
odd duck, maybe the best APS-C camera ever to be produced, just prior
to more affordable FF.
Again - I don't see it as odd - I think it's great and perfectly logical :)
Meanwhile, the D3 & D700 are great cameras,
but the new 24MP model was announced at a too high price. Canon
seems to have the lineup down pretty well; entry level, midrange,
entry level FF and pro FF (not sure if I'm missing anything in
there). I don't know how they compete at entry level; Nikon has more
offerings and, I think, cheaper offerings, while Canon's Rebel is a
little pricey but I never know if the previous model is still in
production or if they're selling out old stock.

Nobody else offers a lineup that competes at so many points in the
market.
Compared to Canon or Nikon? Or both? I've lost you a bit.
The Sony A900 is a nice enough competitor in the affordable
FF range, and will appeal to some landscape/fine art enthusiasts, but
isn't a pro camera.
If the above statement is refering to Canon, then neither is the 5D MkII (or if the 5D MkII is a pro-camera, then so is the A900 - they're very close). If you're comparing to the D700 I totally agree.
The A700 is a nice midrange model and the A200
and A300 are actually among the best consumer cameras out there.
(The A350 is an odd duck at 14MP with no good way to do critical
focus or DOF preview with a tiny VF and low res LCD).

As for Pentax & Oly, I think it's hard to make the case for any
company offering a great range of products if they're sitting on 10%
or less of the market. It simply has to be Canon or Nikon. They
leapfrog each other. Heads, tails, take your pick :)
They leapfrog each other but Nikon always aims slightly higher with anything below a D3. It's interesting - I like their approach.
--
Please visit my galleries at:
http://www.jaggerbramley.com
 
Instead of cherry-picking to find the brightest-lit photo I have
taken in a year, why not use a more typical example of lighting...
E.g. http://www.flickr.com/photos/two_truths/sets/72157607638624608/
Oops! Are some of those photos taken at ISO 3200, F2.0? Good luck
in trying to use your E-520 at ISO 400 to cover those events!
So I could use the E-520 and the sigma 1.4 or the E-3 and Sigma 1.4
or the E-3 and some legacy glass, how bright do you want it?
If you had a 100mm F1.4 lens that was sharp wide open then that would
do the job fine. A soft 30mm F1.4 is not really so helpful.
Oh I see, so now 1.4 is not good enough - according to your exif data
you were as close as 20mm.
You really crack me up!

20mm (15mm for you) => wide-angle of whole scene
135mm (100mm for you) => head and shoulders portrait

No, a soft 30mm F1.4 would not suffice. A sharp 35mm F1.4 would be a start at least but the Sigma is certainly not sharp.
Do I
need autofocus?
Yes. It is nearly impossible to get a sharp focus in difficult
lighting when you are using a tele lens at larger apertures.
I just don't know how people used to manage years ago without AF in
these situations.
They had enormous and very bright viewfinders, which were well over twice the size of your E-3's viewfinder.
The E-3's viewfinder is pretty nice, I will give you that. However
if I were going to pick a dSLR for manual focusing in difficult
lighting I would pick a 35mm full-frame dSLR, because their
viewfinders are much bigger and brighter.
I've already explained liveview and 10x magnification - what about it
do you not understand?
I do not understand how insanely stupid you are to think that you can stop what you are doing during a live gig and manually focus any lens via 320x240xRGB LCD.
Obviously you have no knowledge of HDR using a single RAW file.
The E-3 (as with every other Four Thirds dSLR) is renowned for its shoddy RAW headroom. Most APS-C dSLRs capture two stops worth of extra data in RAW, whereas the E-3 captures only one.
Its me who should be thanking you. The point I'm making is not that
the E-3 is the best for low light shooting ( because it obviously
isn't although it can be good in the right hands with a decent lens.
) but it is significantly more versatile than your Sony A-700.
Oh that is the funniest thing I have heard all year.

I know a lowlight events photographer who once tried the E-3. He bought that and both of the F2.0 lenses, despite my telling him that it was shoddy. Then he sold the lot, within a couple of months. I did tell him what to expect but he just wouldn't listen...

--
Stuart / the Two Truths
http://twotruths.net/
 
Instead of cherry-picking to find the brightest-lit photo I have
taken in a year, why not use a more typical example of lighting...
E.g. http://www.flickr.com/photos/two_truths/sets/72157607638624608/
Oops! Are some of those photos taken at ISO 3200, F2.0? Good luck
in trying to use your E-520 at ISO 400 to cover those events!
So I could use the E-520 and the sigma 1.4 or the E-3 and Sigma 1.4
or the E-3 and some legacy glass, how bright do you want it?
If you had a 100mm F1.4 lens that was sharp wide open then that would
do the job fine. A soft 30mm F1.4 is not really so helpful.
Oh I see, so now 1.4 is not good enough - according to your exif data
you were as close as 20mm.
Not to call you a liar but in the link above many pics were shot at 135 mm f2, which I believe it's equivalent to 108 mm f 1.6 in 4/3. and therefore that claim.

As far as I can see 20 mm shots are ISO 3200, maybe not one of the strong points of 4/3 sensors?

Since this kind of limitations of the 4/3 system do not affect most photographers, why not admit it?

That does not imply that in many other types of shooting (allegedly most regarding the average photog) Oly's Kits can produce virtually equivalent (as in some times the same, others worse, and others better) as any other cam and that you could make a point of the bang for the buck, if you're so inclined.

The rest only makes jokes about Olympus fanboys more understandable.
Do I
need autofocus?
Yes. It is nearly impossible to get a sharp focus in difficult
lighting when you are using a tele lens at larger apertures.
I just don't know how people used to manage years ago without AF in
these situations.
she's hardly racing around is she lol and you forgot
to mention how close you were.
You might have noticed that Amanda had one leg in a cast. Otherwise;
she is a lot more active than that, as any of her fans could tell you.
You told me to look at those shots and I did and gave you several
plausible setups, so now you're not shooting at 20mm anymore? Those
goalposts just keep moving.
I was close enough to get head-and-shoulders shots with my 135mm F1.8
ZA. That is about average for photographing a gig from the pit.
So the E-3's 100% viewfinder is not good enough for you?
LoL! Please tell me you are joking, right?

The E-3's viewfinder is pretty nice, I will give you that. However
if I were going to pick a dSLR for manual focusing in difficult
lighting I would pick a 35mm full-frame dSLR, because their
viewfinders are much bigger and brighter.
I've already explained liveview and 10x magnification - what about it
do you not understand?
Of course, how could I know anything about the dark art of low light
photography?
Apparently very little! But you are hilarious.
I'm in good company then.
Thirdly; whereas I agree that the Olympus E-3 could probably handle
ISO 1600, it does severely lack dynamic range at higher ISOs. The
event you referred to had very harsh lighting, such that the
highlights were clipping even with my A700. The E-3 gives a full
stop less dynamic range, so it would suffer horribly in the same
conditions.
Never heard of bracketing or blending or HDR?
And you just keep getting funnier!
Obviously you have no knowledge of HDR using a single RAW file. Not
HDR in the truest sense but will expand the DR of a photo if you know
what you are doing. Having said that you don't get true RAW files
anyway so you'd be at a disadavantge but its still doable on your
plastic toy.
Gigs are one of the most challenging environments to capture
photographs in, with moving subjects, extremely ropey schedules,
stunts and other surprises. Nobody stays still for 3/5ths of a
second and you only have one chance to capture the perfect image.
I'm glad you told me, I'd never have guessed it although you are
wrong yet again as there are plenty of pregnant pauses throughout a
lot of gigs, it just depends on the performers unless of course you
specialise in thrash metal gigs. 1/30 second will get you plenty of
decent shots in a lot of situations, of course faster is better but
when the action gets faster the lights usually go up anyway. I've
never seen performers jumping around with no light.
Why would you try to capture the whole dynamic range in that
situation?
Oh jeesh, this is getting silly.
Elaborate as ever.
even our eyes aren't capable of that! but don't tell me,
your A-700 is better than the human eye right?
Certainly not but the human eye is a lot more capable than your E-3
in the same circumstances ;o)
Haven't I already said that? You're blind as well as stupid.
Sorry but you went even more beyond silliness after that point.

Thanks for all of the fine humour!
Its me who should be thanking you. The point I'm making is not that
the E-3 is the best for low light shooting ( because it obviously
isn't although it can be good in the right hands with a decent lens.
) but it is significantly more versatile than your Sony A-700. It
blows it away on many counts which is why it is the price that it is.
We'd all love it to be cheaper but its not and compared to what it
offers it is good value as an all round package. I don't expect you
to understand that because clearly You're not capable.
--
Stuart / the Two Truths
http://twotruths.net/
--
667....Neighbour of the beast....Form is temporary, glass is permanent.
--
-------------------------------------------------------
My Galleries: http://webs.ono.com/igonzalezbordes/index.html
 
Instead of cherry-picking to find the brightest-lit photo I have
taken in a year, why not use a more typical example of lighting...
E.g. http://www.flickr.com/photos/two_truths/sets/72157607638624608/
Oops! Are some of those photos taken at ISO 3200, F2.0? Good luck
in trying to use your E-520 at ISO 400 to cover those events!
So I could use the E-520 and the sigma 1.4 or the E-3 and Sigma 1.4
or the E-3 and some legacy glass, how bright do you want it?
If you had a 100mm F1.4 lens that was sharp wide open then that would
do the job fine. A soft 30mm F1.4 is not really so helpful.
Oh I see, so now 1.4 is not good enough - according to your exif data
you were as close as 20mm.
You really crack me up!

20mm (15mm for you) => wide-angle of whole scene
135mm (100mm for you) => head and shoulders portrait
Well that doesn't make any sense to me but nothing you say does.
No, a soft 30mm F1.4 would not suffice. A sharp 35mm F1.4 would be a
start at least but the Sigma is certainly not sharp.
Sigma are known for variable quality but some people swear by them and of course you've tried them all.
Do I
need autofocus?
Yes. It is nearly impossible to get a sharp focus in difficult
lighting when you are using a tele lens at larger apertures.
I just don't know how people used to manage years ago without AF in
these situations.
They had enormous and very bright viewfinders, which were well over
twice the size of your E-3's viewfinder.
The E-3's viewfinder is pretty nice, I will give you that. However
if I were going to pick a dSLR for manual focusing in difficult
lighting I would pick a 35mm full-frame dSLR, because their
viewfinders are much bigger and brighter.
I've already explained liveview and 10x magnification - what about it
do you not understand?
I do not understand how insanely stupid you are to think that you can
stop what you are doing during a live gig and manually focus any lens
via 320x240xRGB LCD.
I do not understand how insanely stupid you are, how are you stopping? its LIVEVIEW because its instant, you can see what is happening, whats different about focusing using an OVF or using a screen (except its more accurate)?
Obviously you have no knowledge of HDR using a single RAW file.
The E-3 (as with every other Four Thirds dSLR) is renowned for its
shoddy RAW headroom. Most APS-C dSLRs capture two stops worth of
extra data in RAW, whereas the E-3 captures only one.
Well my E-510 can capture 2 stops in RAW and the E-3 is better than that, but you'd know wouldn't you.
Its me who should be thanking you. The point I'm making is not that
the E-3 is the best for low light shooting ( because it obviously
isn't although it can be good in the right hands with a decent lens.
) but it is significantly more versatile than your Sony A-700.
Versatility as in all round photography - you know, what the majority do.
Oh that is the funniest thing I have heard all year.
I know a lowlight events photographer who once tried the E-3. He
bought that and both of the F2.0 lenses, despite my telling him that
it was shoddy. Then he sold the lot, within a couple of months. I
did tell him what to expect but he just wouldn't listen...
I just can't think why he didn't listen to you, you probably bored him just like you are the rest of us.
--
Stuart / the Two Truths
http://twotruths.net/
--
667....Neighbour of the beast....Form is temporary, glass is permanent.
 

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