POLL -- How Long Will the MIRROR live ???

Why is using an adaptor a hassle?
I use one now for my legacy lenses and its no hassle to me.
Good for you. It would be for me. IMO the big advantage with Micro
4/3 is compact size and light weight. Using an adaptor increase the
number of parts and volume I need to carry. Also if I switch between
Micro 4/3 and standard 4/3 lenses I either have to mount and unmount
the adaptor for each switch, or (maybe better) have one adaptor for
each standard 4/3 lens.

Btw, I think Micro 4/3 is a really great idea and really liked the
G1. I might even buy one when they get the 14-140mm out.
Each to their own, its not a hassle for a lot of people. An adaptor is not exactly a large heavy piece of kit but different folks and all that. For the sake of an adaptor I get to use all my 4/3 lenses and thats a hell of a bonus but I take your point that it might not suit some. I can't see many existing 4/3's users having a problem.
--
667....Neighbour of the beast....Form is temporary, glass is permanent.
 
IMO the big advantage with Micro
4/3 is compact size and light weight.
[...]
Btw, I think Micro 4/3 is a really great idea and really liked the
G1. I might even buy one when they get the 14-140mm out.
14-140mm? So much for compact size! From the pictures on the web it looks to be almost as long as the G1 body is wide. The G1 body is 125mm.

FWIW the 14-150mm is about 90mm long. The 18-180mm about 80mm. Considering the mFT registration (sensor to lens mount distance) is about 20mm shorter than FT, I'd bet that the difference in overall length between a E-420 with 14-150 and G1 with 14-140mm will be pretty close.

Hopefully the 14-140mm will be a bit more affordable than the 14-150mm.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed
 
IMO the big advantage with Micro
4/3 is compact size and light weight.
[...]
Btw, I think Micro 4/3 is a really great idea and really liked the
G1. I might even buy one when they get the 14-140mm out.
14-140mm? So much for compact size! From the pictures on the web it
looks to be almost as long as the G1 body is wide. The G1 body is
125mm.

FWIW the 14-150mm is about 90mm long. The 18-180mm about 80mm.
Considering the mFT registration (sensor to lens mount distance) is
about 20mm shorter than FT, I'd bet that the difference in overall
length between a E-420 with 14-150 and G1 with 14-140mm will be
pretty close.

Hopefully the 14-140mm will be a bit more affordable than the 14-150mm.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed
Simple, If its too big then don't buy it, we're not exactly talking huge sizes here and the weight of the lens is also a factor. Like the 4/3's kit lenses which are very light but also very good.
--
667....Neighbour of the beast....Form is temporary, glass is permanent.
 
You bring up good points .... but I have not heard that is an issue with any EVF camera. It is not a problem with my 6yo Minolta A2, nor was with the Sony R1, nor the current G1 or F1 / FH20.
..higher frame rate limits you!

Imagine 60fps, sound quick enough? All well and good, but that also
means that the EVF operates at a shuffer speed of no slower than 1/60.

Ambient only I can easily get to 4 stops below that in 'normal' room
lighting at ISO1600. So to maintain 1/60 under these conditions we
are talking insane ISO's [for the viewfinder display, clearly not
the subsequent exposure]; you can imagine what the noise will look
like.

Hence as the light drops you either accept lower frame rate on the
EVF [not aceptable to me] or so much noise that focus will be very
hard to judge (although framing will probably be fine, but i think
that there is no doubt that details in the shadows will be very hard
to judge)

regards

--
DeeJayBee

deejaybee.smugmug.com
--
Thanks for reading .... JoePhoto

( Do You Ever STOP to THINK --- and FORGET to START Again ??? )
 
IMO the big advantage with Micro
4/3 is compact size and light weight.
[...]
Btw, I think Micro 4/3 is a really great idea and really liked the
G1. I might even buy one when they get the 14-140mm out.
14-140mm? So much for compact size! From the pictures on the web it
looks to be almost as long as the G1 body is wide. The G1 body is
125mm.

FWIW the 14-150mm is about 90mm long. The 18-180mm about 80mm.
Considering the mFT registration (sensor to lens mount distance) is
about 20mm shorter than FT, I'd bet that the difference in overall
length between a E-420 with 14-150 and G1 with 14-140mm will be
pretty close.

Hopefully the 14-140mm will be a bit more affordable than the 14-150mm.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed
Simple, If its too big then don't buy it
Wow, touched a nerve?

I was simply pointing out the dichotomy in the above two statements.

The poster wants small, to the point of avoiding a FT adapter to mount FT lenses.

And then he says he wants a G1 with 14-140mm. That'll make the entire package (camera + lens) about the same size as the E-420 with 14-150mm, or for that matter the G1 + adapter + FT 14-150mm!

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed
 
I'm pretty sure that the time required for photons to bounce around
to get to the eyepiece is orders of magnitude less than any eletronic
circuit could achieve.
It certainly is, but it takes about 50 to 100 milliseconds for the camera to take your shot, so for the skill levels present for current technology, 16.6ms+electronic delays of visual lag is not an issue, as you have to anticipate, anyway. No one really shoots isolated shots in realtime.

The difference in shutter lags amongst various camera is much larger than 1/60 second!

The biggest problem I have found trying to shoot active birds with my FZ50 as opposed to a DSLR, is not the lag per se, but the lack of color and contrast in the EVF, which makes it easy to lose the bird against the background.

A 60fps EVF with good color and resolution - I think I can adapt to it very well.

--
John

 
EVF might replace OVF.. but, 43 and m43 wont be around for it. The
tiny 43 sensor means it will never be able to gain any market share
and certainly have no place for anyone who cares about image quality.
Who cares about the supposed advantages of EVF if your sensor blows.
4/3 isn't a whole lot smaller than APS-C; the real problem with Panasonic sensors is that they have high read noise, especially at high ISOs, because they do not employ some of the advanced readout techniques used in Canon and Nikon sensors.

--
John

 
4/3 isn't a whole lot smaller than APS-C; the real problem with
Panasonic sensors is that they have high read noise, especially at
high ISOs, because they do not employ some of the advanced readout
techniques used in Canon and Nikon sensors.

--
John

or in-camera processing as its more commonly known.
--
667....Neighbour of the beast....Form is temporary, glass is permanent.
 
I don't think either the G1 or EX-F1/FH-20 uses focal plane shutter.
The image is taken directly off the sensor.
Yes the image on the eye-level viewfinder in the Panasonic G1 does come direct from the sensor, but it also does use a vertically running mechanical focal plane shutter. There are a host of reasons for this that I will not speculate about, but it does make a reassuring click without the clunk of an SLR mirror.

Whenever any advance in technology comes out you are bound to receive replies that are variants on the "My mind is made up, please don't bother me with facts" theme, but I agree with you that EVIL (Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens) cameras are the future and that further developments will be made so that ultimately these will be the replacement for dSLRs.
 
Also, take a look at your 43 lenses.. cause, aside from the 9-18,
they wont AF on an m43 body.
There are several other Olympus four thirds format lenses that will autofocus with a micro four thirds body: their 25mm pancake lens and 35mm macro for starters.
 
[snip]


Look . . . no focal plane shutter . . . just the sensor!
No.
Sorry, but you're incorrect.

The Panasonic DMC-G1 has a focal plane shutter which stays in the open position when the cameras is turned off.
To quote the preview:
As there is no mirror and the camera works in live view mode full time,
the G1 features a newly-designed focal plane shutter that stays open
when powered down (conventional shutters are closed when powered
down)."
From here: http://www.dpreview.com/previews/PanasonicG1/page3.asp
 
4/3 isn't a whole lot smaller than APS-C; the real problem with
Panasonic sensors is that they have high read noise, especially at
high ISOs, because they do not employ some of the advanced readout
techniques used in Canon and Nikon sensors.
or in-camera processing as its more commonly known.
Readout comes before in-camera processing in the image processing pipeline. In fact it isn't even in the pipeline. It's even before A/D conversion. If you'd like to call this "in camera processing", please show me an in-camera processor that works with analog data.

It's not noise reduction, it's reduced noise introduction. Here's an explanation for CCDs, the situation is similar with CMOS.

http://spiff.rit.edu/classes/phys559/lectures/readout/readout.html

And if you'd like to pretend that the egghead who wrote the above doesn't know imaging, you might want to know that RIT is the Rochester Institute of Technology, which is in (you guessed it) Rochester, New York, which also happens to be Kodak's hometown. RIT and Kodak have a longstanding relationship.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed
 
EVF might replace OVF.. but, 43 and m43 wont be around for it. The
tiny 43 sensor means it will never be able to gain any market share
and certainly have no place for anyone who cares about image quality.
Who cares about the supposed advantages of EVF if your sensor blows.
4/3 isn't a whole lot smaller than APS-C; the real problem with
Panasonic sensors is that they have high read noise, especially at
high ISOs, because they do not employ some of the advanced readout
techniques used in Canon and Nikon sensors.
Well something is up; the noise levels at iso200 for the E30 (in the samples floating around) is alarming. Its not even close to D90 levels in terms of iq, which is a sensor of older design and supposedly not much larger than 43 (i say that 50% is much larger).
 
well that's= IT Sales means all
if the technical end of the electronic viewfinder are worked out
that will be the death song for the mirror --but that's a big if and when
 
4/3 isn't a whole lot smaller than APS-C; the real problem with
Panasonic sensors is that they have high read noise, especially at
high ISOs, because they do not employ some of the advanced readout
techniques used in Canon and Nikon sensors.
or in-camera processing as its more commonly known.
No, I am talking about things like correlated double sampling, which determines pixel offsets with certainty.

Images that are simply noisier look more detailed than they are, because negative noise makes some pixels darker on the dark side of an edge, and some brighter on the bright side of an edge, increasing apparent sharpness.

If you stack multiple versions of such images, you will see that the noise itself is what appeared sharp and "more natural".

--
John

 
Images that are simply noisier look more detailed than they are,
because negative noise makes some pixels darker on the dark side of
an edge, and some brighter on the bright side of an edge, increasing
apparent sharpness.
Does film grain give the perception of sharpness too? For the same
reason?
I would say so.

There is also the factor that the brain clearly knows that the limits of resolution have been reached, so no better focus is necessary.

--
John

 

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