Why are Nikon/Canon not offering radio remote flash power control?

FP sync loses power from your flashgun
Yes, it does.
Once initiated it offers no advantage in a
fill-flash situation.
I disagree. But you are entitled to use your flashes any way you want.
Marketing told you to do it.
Actually, a lot of nice and helpful people here suggested to me that it would accomplish what I wanted to do.
The task of OEM manufacturers is to sell equipment. They do this
through marketing. Once the product is sold, as many have realised,
the marketing claims are a little more embellished than reality
suggests.
Companies market products, you can buy them or choose not to. It really is that simple.
The IR
control is ineffrective which needs a proper solution.
I disagree. The few times I have used CLS it worked as advertised and accomplished what I wanted to get done. If you feel you need a more robust or capable system, that's fine. Buy one that works for you.
Whether Nikon
provide this or you need to turn to Radiopoppers to solve this would
be irrelevent to Nikon since you need to have a Nikon product in the
first place to stick a radiopopper on.
Well, that is because Radio Popper has chosen to piggy back on Nikons already developed flash communication protocol. Don't blame Nikon because RP hasn't developed their own communication system/flashes that allow for using other than Nikon flashes.

-Suntan
 
Once initiated it offers no advantage in a
fill-flash situation.
I disagree.
You are ill informed then.
Marketing told you to do it.
Actually, a lot of nice and helpful people here suggested to me that
it would accomplish what I wanted to do.
Wide aperture using less power at close range OK. Anything else - not as usefiul as full sync speed of camera with full output of flash..
Companies market products, you can buy them or choose not to. It
really is that simple.
I did, expecting they would work. They didn't.
I disagree. The few times I have used CLS it worked as advertised
A few times just about sums it up.
Whether Nikon
provide this or you need to turn to Radiopoppers to solve this would
be irrelevent to Nikon since you need to have a Nikon product in the
first place to stick a radiopopper on.
Well, that is because Radio Popper has chosen to piggy back on Nikons
already developed flash communication protocol. Don't blame Nikon
because RP hasn't developed their own communication system/flashes
that allow for using other than Nikon flashes.
You miss the WHOLE point. Nikon designed the system (which essentially is great) but is only 50% effective because they chose to cheapskate on the communication system. At the same time they chose to score in the marketing with their useful but ineffective feature. It's there, but unreliable so therefore useless. They could have designed it 100% effective in the first place by including a radio link and not IR.

In my book that's a major **** up.

Add to it the fact that the SB800 didn't suit DX format for which it was designed, it zooming to suit FX format - along with the loss in power associated with this. FP mode - don't even go there. A marketing success it is, but a practical solution it is'nt.

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?
 
The technology is and has been there for a while, and the limitations
of CLS compared to radio remotes are well known.
I won't bet even money on it, but it sure would be interesting if
Nikon's BIG event at WPPI is actually a lighting announcement rather
than a camera/lens announcement:
Thanks for the notice Michael - I'm sure that the camera collectors will be thrilled at the prospect of a better newer flash than the SB900.

Even if it was a product that corrected all the previous failings would you really want to buy it without compensation for the dud units you already bought ? I would think that if you bought one of the previous versions - maybe as Radiopoppers do - perhaps you might get an upgrade discount or even the upgrade might be free ?

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?
 
You are ill informed then.
Sorry. After this post I'm done here. I won't waste my time with someone that continues to talk down to me.
Wide aperture using less power at close range OK.
Yeah. I do tend to take portraits outside at close range with a desire for separation between the subject and background. Imagine that. I suppose I should buy a couple of ND filters and intentionally not use FP just to protest its limited use... jeez.
I did, expecting they would work. They didn't.
Then get a refund if you can, or else chalk it up to a lesson learned. Next time it might be a benefit to understand the true capabilities of what it is you are buying.
A few times just about sums it up.
I use it if I want to take a quick and dirty shot with the flash off shoe. If I want to take multiple flash shots, I set them up myself and trigger them with sync cords. Get over yourself, you are not the first person to take a picture while shining a light at the subject. All people have different requirements for their equipment based on what they shoot. Research what will fit your needs and buy that, but don't run around telling everyone else they are a bunch of sheep just because they bought the same things you did and yet they can manage to take the pictures they want with them.
You miss the WHOLE point.
I've made my thoughts on the subject known. If you still think I don't have a grasp on the situation, nothing more I can say to explain it.
In my book that's a major **** up.
So don't use Nikon gear if you are so mad at them, that will show them. Move on to the camera vendor that does offer you advanced RF control of their hotshoe flashes. Good luck with that.

I'm out.

-Suntan
 
I won't bet even money on it, but it sure would be interesting if
Nikon's BIG event at WPPI is actually a lighting announcement rather
than a camera/lens announcement:
Thanks for the notice Michael - I'm sure that the camera collectors
will be thrilled at the prospect of a better newer flash than the
SB900.
I'm going to assume you aren't trolling, but what notice? Nikon has scheduled an announcement for WPPI. Beyond that is pure speculation and stated as same.
Even if it was a product that corrected all the previous failings
would you really want to buy it without compensation for the dud
units you already bought?
Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else?

While I've had my share of dud lighting gear, none of it was Nikon. I doubt they'll compensate me for a Vivitar 283, a JTL Infrared Sender E, or a set of Smith-Victor monolights. And let's not even talk about the Sunpak FP38.

I've bought 4 Nikon speedlights -- an SB-21, SB-28, SB-30, and SB-800. I sold the SB-28 -- the others are still working just fine. Between those and my set of Hensels, I felt no need to buy an SB-900.

--
I miss the days when I used to be nostalgic.
 
You are ill informed then.
Sorry. After this post I'm done here. I won't waste my time with
someone that continues to talk down to me.
Thats a bit strong from someone who wrote 'I won’t bicker as to what is better or what is intended for the unwashed masses.'
Yeah. I do tend to take portraits outside at close range with a
desire for separation between the subject and background. Imagine
that. I suppose I should buy a couple of ND filters and intentionally
not use FP just to protest its limited use... jeez.
well, imagine that... without talking down to you, I worked out the only reason you would want to use FP mode.. and Jeez, if we could play longer together you might have found out how to create the same effect without FP mode and without ND filters and without even using a flash capable of high speed sync. Never mind..
I did, expecting they would work. They didn't.
Then get a refund if you can, or else chalk it up to a lesson
learned. Next time it might be a benefit to understand the true
capabilities of what it is you are buying.
Errr, I actually DID say this, my first post started 'Most people ask this question - AFTER - they've bought an item of equipment that doesn't DO what they expect it should do. I did, so I didn't buy any more and won't be doing so again.'

I chalked it up as a lesson learned and moved on. The point being that the promises made in the marketing are not being delivered in the product. This being reflected in the OP's initial question of why such a great system doesn't have the radio capability it so obviously needs.

The only way to find out whether the system works is by using it in (my) normal circumstances. I used it, It didn't work, and it still doesn't. Other peoples circumstances (yours) might be less demanding - so be it - it doesn't mean the system is any more reliable, just you haven't been in a situation depending on it to work when it hasn't.
I use it if I want to take a quick and dirty shot with the flash off
shoe. If I want to take multiple flash shots, I set them up myself
and trigger them with sync cords.
You need to catch up Suntan - we're talking about radio controlled flash here, as opposed to IR controlled flash. The purpose of these controls are that they happen remotely, sync cords don't come into it. we're not talking just 'quick and dirty' we're talking full control, multiple flash - in exactly the scenario you find yourself using sync cords. The CLS system can do this, but not in it's current state. In order for it work reliably it needs that radio element to be added.
I've made my thoughts on the subject known. If you still think I
don't have a grasp on the situation, nothing more I can say to
explain it.
The first time that you find the IR system fails I'm sure you will find a fault in the way that you're using it rather than the equipment being restrictive. In the meantime you might want to ask yourself why theres' so many users clammering for the Radiopopper add-ons if the CLS system (in your opinion) is already so reliable?

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?
 
Thanks for the notice Michael -
I'm going to assume you aren't trolling, but what notice?
I was simply refering to the link you provided.

In reference to the dud gear - I wasn't specifically meaning you, just the many people considering themselves 'clients' of Nikon by fact of their patronage to Nikon in buying their products. Lack of an 'upgrade' scheme from Nikon in comparison to other manufacturers i.e. Radiopoppers and Quantum in this respect makes any announcement of a new product a bitter pill to swallow, especially for existing customers who have already 'bought' a feature in a product which they find doesn't work as well as expected and requires additional hardware to make it so.

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?
 
Wide aperture using less power at close range OK. Anything else - not
as usefiul as full sync speed of camera with full output of flash..
Well, that's pretty much what HSS was designed for. :)

Used directly, a single SB can put down a nice fill up to 1/4000s or so with little trouble. Up even closer would be better :) Often there's no real need for extreme sync speeds. Out in the sun, just having 1/800s to around 1/2000s shutter speeds available opens up lots of possibilities.

Still, if one has them, ganging up a bunch of them when needed can help to boost the distance range a bit. Quantum X5dr's at 400ws would help a lot with the power issue, if they supported HSS. Evidently, the Trio has wired HSS capabilities, so perhaps it's only a matter of time.

This is just a basic sample of a typical bright open mid-day sun photo using a diffused, hotshoe mounted SB800. The flash itself would have been dialed down around 1/2 stop or so. D200 35mm f/2 @ f/2.8, 1/4000s ISO100.



Shooting into the sun, even at only 1/800s, provided just a little extra wiggle room for the sky here...



This was shot outdoors with the camera aimed towards the setting sun using a small cluster of IR controlled Speedlights held back a few feet behind the camera. It worked, but RF triggering sure would have made it easier. One SB would likely have provided enough light, but I strapped a few together, mainly to keep the recycle times up.

HSS isn't the end all/be all, but having some additional control over the shutter speed with flash can be nice

--
'Here, look at the monkey. Look at the silly monkey!'

Tom Young
http://www.pbase.com/tyoung/
 
Wide aperture using less power at close range OK. Anything else - not
as usefiul as full sync speed of camera with full output of flash..
Well, that's pretty much what HSS was designed for. :)
Hi Tom, I think we've been here before. The failings of HSS/FP are pretty well documented. :)

It's pretty straight forward, HSS/FP cannot provide as much fill light as simply using your maximum sync speed and your flash in full power output in whatever situation. This includes shooting with apertures down to f16 or more in bright sun situations. Adding multiple FP/HSS flash units only catches up with using full flash output used with max sync speed if you use at least 2 FP/HSS flash units, and for any advantage at least 3 or maybe 4 would be needed.

When this can be easily achieved by using 1 (small) 200WS battery portable, using multiple HSS/FP flash units in this way is pretty futile both on a practical and cost level unless as the general direction of this thread has gone, marketing suggests this is the norm and it encourages speedlight sales.

Of course, as you say - if you chose to utilise a HSS/FP compatible flash you would need to fire it by IR, which, (as we're discussing) is unreliable.

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?
 
Hi Tom, I think we've been here before. The failings of HSS/FP are
pretty well documented. :)
That's true. But then, the same can be said for it's successes. :)
It's pretty straight forward, HSS/FP cannot provide as much fill
light as simply using your maximum sync speed and your flash in full
power output in whatever situation. This includes shooting with
apertures down to f16 or more in bright sun situations. Adding
multiple FP/HSS flash units only catches up with using full flash
output used with max sync speed if you use at least 2 FP/HSS flash
units, and for any advantage at least 3 or maybe 4 would be needed.
There's just no free lunch. But while HSS isn't a panacea, it's still a perfectly useful tool. Pushing standard sync with a digital shutter also loses power right off the top and the harder you push it, the more inconsistent the results become. ND filters are fine too, but you need to be using a fairly fast lens to begin with, especially when plying on more than a couple of stops worth. Once the ND drops the max aperture beyond f/5.6, seeing through the finder becomes difficult and the AF goes south which makes things pretty impractical outside of a studio setting where the filter/s can more readily be swapped into and out of place. Besides, it's a shame having to mount that fast lens, just to be forced into stopping down beyond f/11.

As for controlling bright ambient light with flash, there are drawbacks with any method, but in spite of the problems, they're all capable of producing great results. We just have to pick our poison and stay within the limitations as best we can.
When this can be easily achieved by using 1 (small) 200WS battery
portable, using multiple HSS/FP flash units in this way is pretty
futile both on a practical and cost level unless as the general
direction of this thread has gone, marketing suggests this is the
norm and it encourages speedlight sales.
Yes, it could have been easily achieved with a Quantum type head, as the shutter speed requirements weren't very extreme, I could just have stopped down a bit and shot at standard sync speed. But had there been significant motion, the lower shutter speed might have caused problems with motion blur under the ambient light. Obviously, HSS does away with the burst speed of standard flash, but we're not always trying to freeze spinning fan blades and 1/2000s or threreabouts is fast enough to stop plenty of moving objects on it's own.

As for marketing, well, of course they're going to suggest people purchase lots of Speedlights. The user manuals for HSS capable bodies limit their explanations of it's use to close-up photography for the most part, but that's the engineers talking, not the sales people.

Still, there are plenty of folks that do have a few or more dedicated hotshoe flash units for their cameras, all for any number of reasons. HSS can be one nice way to put them to use.
Of course, as you say - if you chose to utilise a HSS/FP compatible
flash you would need to fire it by IR, which, (as we're discussing)
is unreliable.
Indeed it can be. But it doesn't take long to get to know the types of conditions where it will work perfectly, and those conditions where you'll have to baby things along, trying not get too carried away. Built in RF signalling would be great but it would make for a somewhat larger, considerably more expensive flash head with even greater demands for power. Then too, there's the matter of having to throw the baby out with the bath water each time a flash needs to be replaced for some unrelated reason.

As for Wizards et al, vs RadioPoppers, it just gets back down to what kind of dedicated flash features one wants to hang on to.

--
'Here, look at the monkey. Look at the silly monkey!'

Tom Young
http://www.pbase.com/tyoung/
 
As for Wizards et al, vs RadioPoppers, it just gets back down to what
kind of dedicated flash features one wants to hang on to.
Maybe you would find a plug-in transmitter/receiver would be more beneficial then? I'd prefer it built-in - but lets not split hairs. At this moment in time ANY radio facility would be an advantage.

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?
 
Hey Ian,

all pumped up, got T5dr with the westcott magic slipper and an octobox coming in with the 7&9 transmitter and reciever. Can't wait to start shooting with the Qflash. I love my SB900 & SB800's but just wanting a little more firepower without changing batteries all the time and worry about flash meltdown. Thanks

for giving the heads up on the Quantum reliability and their service. I've already been assigned a help tech over there who calls and emails upon request.

Thats pretty remarkable service in my book. The Trio looks might interesting maybe as a fill on the cam to fire the other Quantums.
--
Kevin P.
http://www.pbase.com/kpyle
 
Hello Kevin,

You might need to add a TTL controller to that set up for full wireless TTL. For a Nikon (D2X ETC) it is a DW22 think, not sure what it is for a Canon. Make sure you get the most up to date one.

Of course, if you are planning on getting the Trio or Pilot, there would be no need for the TTL controller (or the FW9T for that matter)

I'm assuming you already have something to power the T5D-R?, a Turbo or one of the Lumy cyclers?
 
Hey Ian, got T5dr with the westcott magic slipper
I'm sure that your set up will suit you fine.

When it comes to the cost of equipment something like that magic slipper at something like $229 to hold a flash gun sort of puts the perspective on the flash market overall don't you think ? If it works, then the cost is incidental.

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?
 
Fellas,

you will definately see a pic of it, yes, the Westcott Magic Slipper is pricey but holding a pricey flash unit and the fact it comes with a rotating speedring, well

its a go in my book. If I would have had all the components you had Ian, I would have gone your route for sure. Yes, the D22W connector was ordered as well as the Qnexus, so I'll have several options to choose from. Thanks for chippin in.
Kevin P.
--
Kevin P.
http://www.pbase.com/kpyle
 
Kevin, a Qnexus is useless with a DW22. The Qnexus is Ir and is used as a receiver for IR signals sent from a canon or nikon speedlight. It doesnt work with FreeXwire but I 'm sure Quantum have explained this to you and you have just made a typo and not actually bought it.

A DW22 is Freexwire and as such is Radio, Qnexus is IR and the two systems will never intergrate but I'm sure you are fully aware of this. Qnexus will not work with either of the radio transmitters/receivers you say you have ordered. It will give you IR communication between your on camera Nikon or Canon flash and your T5D-r
 
Fellas,
you will definately see a pic of it, yes, the Westcott Magic Slipper
is pricey but holding a pricey flash unit and the fact it comes with
a rotating speedring, well
its a go in my book. If I would have had all the components you had
Ian, I would have gone your route for sure.
Hi Kevin,

Interesting it's a rotating speedring - thats a useful feature. Normally, once you fix your softbox to the speedring and stand it can't be rotated.

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?
 
While I'm planing on purchasing radio poppers, I think Nikon / Canon could solve a lot of their problems by simply creating an IR/repeater and adding repeating capability to their flashes. If each flash didn't have to see the master but only another flash, that would defiantly make the system more versatile. A small repeater could also increase range and remove the line of sight limitations. It could also be very cheap.
 

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