Flash exposure very tough with 5DMKII

I did some more shooting today and I have to say that I still find it very much more difficult to get decent exposures with the MKII than the old 5D. Although I won't claim any "expert" status, I have been shooting weddings and portraits for the past 8 years, and I can tell when something is much harder than it should be. I can certainly tell when something is more difficult than it was with the 5DMKI.

I have not done much in the way of fill flash yet, most of this shooting has been where the flash is the dominant light source. I did some shooting today with a multi-flash settup ( pretty simple key and fill with 2 580's using Canon's wireless ETTL) and the exposures are way too dark. I did the same shots with the 5D body and it works OK.

In these shots, I was able to get decent exposure with a single, on-camera flash, by cranking FEC up 1 to 1 1/3 but when the second flash was added, the overall exposures are all too dark by about one stop.

I know that there are those who will disagree with me, time will tell, as more people get the camera and put it into real use. But I think it's pretty safe bet that there are going to be a lot of wedding photographers who are really disappointed in this aspect of the camera. And flash exposure is a BIG DEAL to wedding photogs, much more than the black dots.

I am sure I will get replies that say "you don't understand how ETTL works". Well, I have never lilked Canon's ETTL, but I have shot hundreds of weddings using ETTL and this is the worst I have seen.

I've seen others complain about the same thing before and you're not the only one .

So go ahead and contact canon hopefully they'll do something about it .

Evan B.
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*******************
Canon 1D Mark II N
30D (18-55mm) Kit Lens
Canon 24-70 2.8L USM
Canon 70-200 F2.8 IS
Canon 100-400L IS
Canon 16-35L 2.8
50mm F1.4
Canon 580 EX
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PS - How exactly would I go about making a comment to Canon about this issue? I think any comment I might make would go to some customer service person and never even be noticed.

Check on camera Menu 7> "External Speedlite control"> "Flash Function Settings"> "Flash Exp. Comp." it adds/subtracts from any flash compensation on the flash itself. I accidently set it to +1 on my 5D2 and everything was overexposed until I figure out the problem.
--
Blake in Vancouver
http://flickr.com/photos/28305360@N00/
Panasonic Stuff, Canon Stuff. Mac Stuff.

You can so it by sending E-mails or calling them and if they get a lot complains about the same issue they'll look into it .Try to look at the camera settings as the other user suggested .

Thanks .
--
*******************
Canon 1D Mark II N
30D (18-55mm) Kit Lens
Canon 24-70 2.8L USM
Canon 70-200 F2.8 IS
Canon 100-400L IS
Canon 16-35L 2.8
50mm F1.4
Canon 580 EX
*******************

FEC is one of those things that is easiest to just set on the flash unit itself, so I don't mess with that setting on the back of the camera. There are no conflicting settings camera vs flash in that regard.

Blake Cook said:

Check on camera Menu 7> "External Speedlite control"> "Flash Function
Settings"> "Flash Exp. Comp." it adds/subtracts from any flash
compensation on the flash itself. I accidently set it to +1 on my
5D2 and everything was overexposed until I figure out the problem.

Click to expand...

Why go through a buried menu system? Why not just use the FEC button on the top right of the camera? And you can see the FEC setting in the viewfinder so you don't need to take your eye from the viewfinder. Just leave the setting on your external flash unit to 0 compensation and use the button ontop of your camera. Having to dig through a menu seems pointless and silly.

There has been a lot of posts on the web about flash exposure problems with the 5D mkII. I have also noticed that it under exposes some. I am using Lumiquest soft boxes on my strobes.

Normally I shoot flash in Manual and can just throw some settings on the camera and flash and hit the exposure quite well. While I have not been too far off with the 5D mkII, I will have to admit, although I hate to say it, that Program mode gets the exposures quite well when using strobes.

Using the ST-E2 I set the flashes to Manual but have had to move the flashes closer then I would normally with the new camera.

I do most strobe work in Average mode and not Evaluative. This will lighten things up a bit for you, MAYBE.
Good luck.

--
Gil

i find using this makes a better exposure on sone subjects, esp dark ones.

I use 2/3+ as my default FEC, with bounce flash and a Stofen diffuser on. For most shots, I dont even have to use the * button to get a good exposure. I tried this using 580EXII with 5DMKII, 24-70 2.8L

I wouldn't try to compare what settings were used in your old 5D. Just get the final exposure correct. If you can't even get that, perhaps there is a problem with your unit(s). If all else fails, reset both units to factory settings and try again.

UncleMikey said:

PS - How exactly would I go about making a comment to Canon about
this issue? I think any comment I might make would go to some
customer service person and never even be noticed.

Click to expand...

For you, I would have thought that the most likely route to getting a proper response from Canon would be to email Chuck Westfall. You can get his address from his Techtips blog (at the bottom of the page, don't use the "add comment" section to raise a new subject).
http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0812/tech-tips.html
--
Its RKM

Jaimito said:

i find using this makes a better exposure on sone subjects, esp dark
ones.
I use 2/3+ as my default FEC, with bounce flash and a Stofen diffuser
on. For most shots, I dont even have to use the * button to get a
good exposure. I tried this using 580EXII with 5DMKII, 24-70 2.8L

Click to expand...

You realize that the camera/flash is not doing any sort of metering if your flash is pointed at any direction except 90 degrees (straight ahead), right? Otherwise it is just plain full power, plus or minus and FEC. So hitting the * button with the flash pointed up for a bounce really isn't doing anything at all.

I also suggest to take your stofen diffuser off your flash unless you have a dark ceiling, otherwise you'll generally get a better bounce flash with it off. It can throw too much light directly ahead at your subject if it is a person.

I'll use my stofen when I have a dark ceiling and if shooting a wider area, and my lightsphere pointed directly at a person if taking a closer up portrait.

RedFox88 said:

You realize that the camera/flash is not doing any sort of metering
if your flash is pointed at any direction except 90 degrees (straight
ahead), right? Otherwise it is just plain full power, plus or minus
and FEC.

Click to expand...

ETTL2 only disreguards subject focus distance information when bouncing the flash, but otherwise uses all other camera settings for computations, eg, shutter speed, ISO, aperture. Its not "just plain full power" simply because you are bouncing the flash.

--
Regards,
John

Chief said:

RedFox88 said:

You realize that the camera/flash is not doing any sort of metering
if your flash is pointed at any direction except 90 degrees (straight
ahead), right? Otherwise it is just plain full power, plus or minus
and FEC.

Click to expand...

ETTL2 only disreguards subject focus distance information when
bouncing the flash, but otherwise uses all other camera settings for
computations, eg, shutter speed, ISO, aperture. Its not "just plain
full power" simply because you are bouncing the flash.

Click to expand...

I disagree with that. When you point your head up, the flash unit looses its focal length setting and therefore is just giving a standard output that is well dispersed with the bounce flash effect since it doesn't know the distance of your subject.

RedFox88 said:

Jaimito wrote:
You realize that the camera/flash is not doing any sort of metering
if your flash is pointed at any direction except 90 degrees (straight
ahead), right? Otherwise it is just plain full power, plus or minus
and FEC. So hitting the * button with the flash pointed up for a
bounce really isn't doing anything at all.

Click to expand...

That's not quite right:
From: http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/#ttl

"Since bounce flash is a common technique to improve the quality of a flash-illuminated scene it means that the primary advantage of E-TTL II in this situation is just better evaluative flash metering."

The camera will not know the correct distance the flash traveled but will still evaluate the strength of the pre flash off the subject and compensate in E-TTL.

It's the same when I use softbox, it can compensate for the decrease in light from the box.
--
Gil

Gil-W said:

RedFox88 said:

Jaimito wrote:
You realize that the camera/flash is not doing any sort of metering
if your flash is pointed at any direction except 90 degrees (straight
ahead), right? Otherwise it is just plain full power, plus or minus
and FEC. So hitting the * button with the flash pointed up for a
bounce really isn't doing anything at all.

Click to expand...

That's not quite right:
From: http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/#ttl

"Since bounce flash is a common technique to improve the quality of a
flash-illuminated scene it means that the primary advantage of E-TTL
II in this situation is just better evaluative flash metering."

The camera will not know the correct distance the flash traveled but
will still evaluate the strength of the pre flash off the subject and
compensate in E-TTL.
It's the same when I use softbox, it can compensate for the decrease
in light from the box.
--
Gil

Click to expand...

Another from Photo.net:

"The difference between E-TTL and E-TTL II is that the latter makes use of information about the distance to which the lens is focused. Obviously, it can do so only when working with lenses that relay this information back to the camera. Slightly less obviously, the information is helpful only with a single flash mounted on or close to (flash bracket via OCSC) the camera and pointing at the subject. If the camera knows these conditions are not met, as with bounce flash or wireless flash, it does not try to use the distance information, and reverts to E-TTL, not to manual. Canon DSLRs have no other means of metering flash apart from the preflash-driven E-TTL / E-TTL II system."

It just evaluates the preflash.
--
Gil

RedFox88 said:

I disagree with that. When you point your head up, the flash unit
looses its focal length setting and therefore is just giving a
standard output that is well dispersed with the bounce flash effect
since it doesn't know the distance of your subject.

Click to expand...

I agree it loses the focal length setting and disreguards the distance setting, but feel it still uses shutter speed, ISO, and aperture when deciding how hard to fire. According to the Canon website it seems you can use FEL while bouncing.

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/flashwork/techniques/bounce/index.html

"The color of the wall or ceiling, and its distance from the flash unit, affects the intensity of the illumination reaching the subject. But the desired light level is easily achieved with an EX Series Speedlite by using automatic flash exposure to fire a preflash and then adjusting the light level."

--
Regards,
John

I didnt say 580EXII takes distance into account when it's in bounce mode. But the FEL still works even when you bounce. And it gives me nice results.
It's not full on, like RedFox said either.

RedFox88 said:

Chief said:

RedFox88 said:

You realize that the camera/flash is not doing any sort of metering
if your flash is pointed at any direction except 90 degrees (straight
ahead), right? Otherwise it is just plain full power, plus or minus
and FEC.

Click to expand...

ETTL2 only disreguards subject focus distance information when
bouncing the flash, but otherwise uses all other camera settings for
computations, eg, shutter speed, ISO, aperture. Its not "just plain
full power" simply because you are bouncing the flash.

Click to expand...

I disagree with that. When you point your head up, the flash unit
looses its focal length setting and therefore

Click to expand...

Beep! Non sequitur warning!

RedFox88 said:

is just giving a
standard output that is well dispersed with the bounce flash effect
since it doesn't know the distance of your subject.

Click to expand...

Simply pointing the flash head up does NOT result in a "standard output".

Proofs:

1. Compare shots in bounce mode taken in a small dark room at ISO100 and ISO 1600 or higher with the same aperture in both cases. If the exposure is the same then clearly the flash is being metered. It is.

2. Compare shots in bounce mode in a small dark room with flash changed from ETTL to M. Shot in M is unmetered, full power and overexposed compared to ETTL, showing that the ETTL shot is metered and controlled.

3. Examine camera menus with flash in bounce configuration. ETTL setting can be toggled between Average and Evaluative, which would be irrelevant if flash was not metered in bounce configuration.

4... it goes on, but you get the picture.
--
Its RKM

FEL does work when using bounce. Just try it for yourself on a dark object of different shades. Vary your FEL point slightly on the object and you will see the flash will give different outputs.

BTW, you don't bounce a dark ceiling, or other weird colors. That's the opposite of what you're suppose to do. If there's no good white ceiling for bounce, I'll just use it direct, and take advantage of the distance function. As for Stofen, I compared images with and without it while on bounce mode. I like how it looks with Stofen on. I suggest those who have it to give it a try. Even though it's not a cheap plastic thing I do recommend it.

Chief said:

RedFox88 said:

I disagree with that. When you point your head up, the flash unit
looses its focal length setting and therefore is just giving a
standard output that is well dispersed with the bounce flash effect
since it doesn't know the distance of your subject.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

FEL can work but, I don't know how to store that setting, from one flash to the next, other than to simply put the flash in manual mode so that each flash is identical. But that's not FEL.

I use manual flash at times, when I have a set distance and know that I will be firing off multiple shots that are similar. But really, why even have an expensive flash like a 580EXII if you have to resort to M mode for ordinary shooting? Manual goes one step Backwards in technology, leapfrogging backwards over the Auto Mode.

FEL is not a realistic option when shooting an event in which things happen quickly in different directions, and at different distances. If I am wrong, I would love to know that so that I can use it