Reading mode: Light Dark

Ultra Compact Group test compares Apples to Penguins

Go to last post
K

keeponkeepingon

Senior Member
Messages
1,588
Reaction score
231
Location
US
I'm really disappointed in the compact group tests.

You do not review apples to apples but insist on comparing apples to penguins.

For example you declare the Canon 790IS the champ, but fail to compare it against the Casio EX-Z250 which is actually thinner and lighter than six of the cameras in your review.

Well that was really useful, thicker cameras, perform better. Briliant contribution to help us with our christmas shopping.....

Also you do not even mention the movie modes which Casio is known for.

Do you think your readers do not care about features such as H.264 compression, and pre-recorded movie mode (movie starts 5 seconds BEFORE you hit the shutter) , unique casio features absent from every other camera in the review?

Combine this slanted/bias review and the fact that you have not reviewed a casio since June 2007 and one has to conclude that perhaps the amazon acquisition has affected DPReview a little too much......
--
--------------------------------------------------
Camera's I've owned:
Kodac DC210 DC3400
Canon S100, S50, EOS XT
Casio EX-Z750, EX-Z850, P-505
 
keeponkeepingon said:
I'm really disappointed in the compact group tests.

You do not review apples to apples but insist on comparing apples to
penguins.

For example you declare the Canon 790IS the champ, but fail to
compare it against the Casio EX-Z250 which is actually thinner and
lighter than six of the cameras in your review.

Well that was really useful, thicker cameras, perform better.
Briliant contribution to help us with our christmas shopping.....

Also you do not even mention the movie modes which Casio is known for.

Do you think your readers do not care about features such as H.264
compression, and pre-recorded movie mode (movie starts 5 seconds
BEFORE you hit the shutter) , unique casio features absent from every
other camera in the review?

Combine this slanted/bias review and the fact that you have not
reviewed a casio since June 2007 and one has to conclude that perhaps
the amazon acquisition has affected DPReview a little too much......
--
--------------------------------------------------
Camera's I've owned:
Kodac DC210 DC3400
Canon S100, S50, EOS XT
Casio EX-Z750, EX-Z850, P-505
Click to expand...
Where should we send your refund?
--
Simon Joinson, dpreview.com
 
Compact can mean different things and groups always have a range.

However, comments like have said before, I can't understand.

Con, which I agree with for Pentax
We don't like: Boring zoom range (no real wideangle),

According to the table the Nikon S210 and the Olympus have the same weakness but no comment is made about it on the what we don't like.
Consistency is these group reviews is very important
 
ngap said:
Compact can mean different things and groups always have a range.

However, comments like have said before, I can't understand.

Con, which I agree with for Pentax
We don't like: Boring zoom range (no real wideangle),

According to the table the Nikon S210 and the Olympus have the same
weakness but no comment is made about it on the what we don't like.
Consistency is these group reviews is very important
Click to expand...
You can forgive an ultra slim camera for a boring zoom range, the Optio just doesn't stand out in any way whatsoever.
S
--
Simon Joinson, dpreview.com
 
keeponkeepingon said:
Do you think your readers do not care about features such as H.264
compression, and pre-recorded movie mode (movie starts 5 seconds
BEFORE you hit the shutter) , unique casio features absent from every
other camera in the review?
Click to expand...
I know I sure as hell don't care. And I'm a reader, last I checked. Hey, they can't test them all.
keeponkeepingon said:
one has to conclude that perhaps
the amazon acquisition has affected DPReview a little too much......
Click to expand...
Why is it every time someone takes offense at a perceived slight against their brand of choice, it's always the same tired rant?
 
Simon Joinson said:
keeponkeepingon said:
I'm really disappointed in the compact group tests.

You do not review apples to apples but insist on comparing apples to
penguins.

For example you declare the Canon 790IS the champ, but fail to
compare it against the Casio EX-Z250 which is actually thinner and
lighter than six of the cameras in your review.

Well that was really useful, thicker cameras, perform better.
Briliant contribution to help us with our christmas shopping.....

Also you do not even mention the movie modes which Casio is known for.

Do you think your readers do not care about features such as H.264
compression, and pre-recorded movie mode (movie starts 5 seconds
BEFORE you hit the shutter) , unique casio features absent from every
other camera in the review?

Combine this slanted/bias review and the fact that you have not
reviewed a casio since June 2007 and one has to conclude that perhaps
the amazon acquisition has affected DPReview a little too much......
--
--------------------------------------------------
Camera's I've owned:
Kodac DC210 DC3400
Canon S100, S50, EOS XT
Casio EX-Z750, EX-Z850, P-505
Click to expand...
Where should we send your refund?
--
Simon Joinson, dpreview.com
Click to expand...
I think most members of this website realize that their membership here is voluntary, on their part, and free of charge.

However, it's also free to walk into my local grocery store as well, yet I wouldn't expect this kind of hateful attitude from the employess of that grocery store if I had a concern or complaint about something they were doing, or not doing.

Whether Dpreview likes it or not, the members that utilize this site ARE customers. They may not be customers of items that DPR sells, since DPR doesn't actually sell anything. But, they ARE customers - of the advertisers on this site, that pay DPR to be able to place their ads on this here, as well customers of DPR's parent company, Amazon.

If I were to walk into my local grocery store, for free, and be treated like this by the store staff, I would turn right around a walk out of that store and never shop there again. Just because you don't charge admission to your location doesn't mean you can get away with treating the people, that enter your location, like dirt under your feet. You won't stay in business long with that kind of business model and attitude. Yet, so often that seems to be the way DPR admins treat the members of this site, as if this site were God's gift to them, and they should just be grateful that it even exists.

The OP's specific concern here is one that many others, including myself, have already made regarding the P&S comparison/test reports. It is a legitimate concern, and should not be ridiculed, criticized, or have the member raising the concern "put in their place" by such pointless remarks as the one made here by the responding DPR admin.

DPR's P&S comparisons are very much appreciated, and like the old saying goes, "It's better then nothing". But, these comparison reports could be, and should be a whole heck of a lot better then they have been in light of the vast array of similar P&S cameras out there that could have, and should have been compared to one another to begin with, especailly in the most recent comparison.

Sorry, but DPR's "free membership" is showing all too well in the lack of any real effort or concern being placed in the relevancy of such reports. So, I guess the other old saying, "You get what you pay for" holds true in this instance as well.

As a long standing customer of Amazon, I think I'm going to start forwarding such posts, as the one made here by a DPR representative, to Amazon's Customer Service Department in order to allow them see how their customers are treated on this website whenever legitimate concerns are raised by DPR members.

Whether Amazon will actually do anything about it or not will be up to them. But, I do feel that Amazon should be aware of how DPR members are quite often treated whenever genuine issues are raised that apparently offend DPR staff egos.

Free membership or not, if you're not going to listen to the legitmate concerns of your users, why even bother at all?

--
bryan
--------
http://bryanw.zenfolio.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oakandacorns/sets/



Canon 50D Images: http://bryanw.zenfolio.com/p949109255
 
For anyone who wants the bottom line in a concise fashion: apples make better pies but penguins are rich in protein.

--
Blinky
WSSA Life Member #105
WSSA Chief of Staff
 
Simon Joinson said:
keeponkeepingon said:
I'm really disappointed in the compact group tests.

You do not review apples to apples but insist on comparing apples to
penguins.

For example you declare the Canon 790IS the champ, but fail to
compare it against the Casio EX-Z250 which is actually thinner and
lighter than six of the cameras in your review.

Well that was really useful, thicker cameras, perform better.
Briliant contribution to help us with our christmas shopping.....

Also you do not even mention the movie modes which Casio is known for.

Do you think your readers do not care about features such as H.264
compression, and pre-recorded movie mode (movie starts 5 seconds
BEFORE you hit the shutter) , unique casio features absent from every
other camera in the review?

Combine this slanted/bias review and the fact that you have not
reviewed a casio since June 2007 and one has to conclude that perhaps
the amazon acquisition has affected DPReview a little too much......
--
--------------------------------------------------
Camera's I've owned:
Kodac DC210 DC3400
Canon S100, S50, EOS XT
Casio EX-Z750, EX-Z850, P-505
Click to expand...
Where should we send your refund?
--
Simon Joinson, dpreview.com
Click to expand...
What an absolutely unprofessional, immature reaction to feedback.

Just because your business model isn't subscription based doesn't mean that you're not responsible to explaining DP Review's processes and decisions. There are many publications like "free" newspapers and other publications and they don't use this extremely immature attitude of "we don't charge so you have no right to criticize."

What the hell is wrong with you? Seriously.

--
Right back at ya.
 
Isn't this terrible ?

Upon examining the detail I notice that none of these cameras got compared to my all-time favourite : the Kodak Instamatic 5OO !

How in the world can I trust the findings of a test where this comparisonnis absent ?
 
Oak and Acorn said:
Simon Joinson said:
keeponkeepingon said:
I'm really disappointed in the compact group tests.

You do not review apples to apples but insist on comparing apples to
penguins.

For example you declare the Canon 790IS the champ, but fail to
compare it against the Casio EX-Z250 which is actually thinner and
lighter than six of the cameras in your review.

Well that was really useful, thicker cameras, perform better.
Briliant contribution to help us with our christmas shopping.....

Also you do not even mention the movie modes which Casio is known for.

Do you think your readers do not care about features such as H.264
compression, and pre-recorded movie mode (movie starts 5 seconds
BEFORE you hit the shutter) , unique casio features absent from every
other camera in the review?

Combine this slanted/bias review and the fact that you have not
reviewed a casio since June 2007 and one has to conclude that perhaps
the amazon acquisition has affected DPReview a little too much......
--
--------------------------------------------------
Camera's I've owned:
Kodac DC210 DC3400
Canon S100, S50, EOS XT
Casio EX-Z750, EX-Z850, P-505
Click to expand...
Where should we send your refund?
--
Simon Joinson, dpreview.com
Click to expand...
I think most members of this website realize that their membership
here is voluntary, on their part, and free of charge.

However, it's also free to walk into my local grocery store as well,
yet I wouldn't expect this kind of hateful attitude from the
employess of that grocery store if I had a concern or complaint about
something they were doing, or not doing.

Whether Dpreview likes it or not, the members that utilize this site
ARE customers. They may not be customers of items that DPR sells,
since DPR doesn't actually sell anything. But, they ARE customers -
of the advertisers on this site, that pay DPR to be able to place
their ads on this here, as well customers of DPR's parent company,
Amazon.

If I were to walk into my local grocery store, for free, and be
treated like this by the store staff, I would turn right around a
walk out of that store and never shop there again. Just because you
don't charge admission to your location doesn't mean you can get away
with treating the people, that enter your location, like dirt under
your feet. You won't stay in business long with that kind of
business model and attitude. Yet, so often that seems to be the way
DPR admins treat the members of this site, as if this site were God's
gift to them, and they should just be grateful that it even exists.

The OP's specific concern here is one that many others, including
myself, have already made regarding the P&S comparison/test reports.
It is a legitimate concern, and should not be ridiculed, criticized,
or have the member raising the concern "put in their place" by such
pointless remarks as the one made here by the responding DPR admin.

DPR's P&S comparisons are very much appreciated, and like the old
saying goes, "It's better then nothing". But, these comparison
reports could be, and should be a whole heck of a lot better then
they have been in light of the vast array of similar P&S cameras out
there that could have, and should have been compared to one another
to begin with, especailly in the most recent comparison.

Sorry, but DPR's "free membership" is showing all too well in the
lack of any real effort or concern being placed in the relevancy of
such reports. So, I guess the other old saying, "You get what you
pay for" holds true in this instance as well.

As a long standing customer of Amazon, I think I'm going to start
forwarding such posts, as the one made here by a DPR representative,
to Amazon's Customer Service Department in order to allow them see
how their customers are treated on this website whenever legitimate
concerns are raised by DPR members.

Whether Amazon will actually do anything about it or not will be up
to them. But, I do feel that Amazon should be aware of how DPR
members are quite often treated whenever genuine issues are raised
that apparently offend DPR staff egos.

Free membership or not, if you're not going to listen to the
legitmate concerns of your users, why even bother at all?

--
bryan
--------
http://bryanw.zenfolio.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oakandacorns/sets/



Canon 50D Images: http://bryanw.zenfolio.com/p949109255
Click to expand...
Well said.

We've seen this same pitiful attitude from Phil. Obviously he provides a poor example and poor leadership of appropriate responses to criticism.

I guess this is why he doesn't actually take photos because to work in anything creative, one needs to learn how to deal with all kinds of criticism. That's the nature of the beast.

Something tells me that last creative thing this lot created went swirling down the toilet bowl.

--
Right back at ya.
 
keeponkeepingon said:
I'm really disappointed in the compact group tests.

You do not review apples to apples but insist on comparing apples to
penguins.

For example you declare the Canon 790IS the champ, but fail to
compare it against the Casio EX-Z250 which is actually thinner and
lighter than six of the cameras in your review.

Well that was really useful, thicker cameras, perform better.
Briliant contribution to help us with our christmas shopping.....

Also you do not even mention the movie modes which Casio is known for.

Do you think your readers do not care about features such as H.264
compression, and pre-recorded movie mode (movie starts 5 seconds
BEFORE you hit the shutter) , unique casio features absent from every
other camera in the review?
Click to expand...
Good points. I decided to look the Casio EX-Z250 up and it seems like a worthy contender to include in the comparison. CCD-shift image stabilizer, 4x (28 - 112mm) zoom, 3" screen, etc.

I was with ya, however, until the next paragraph.
keeponkeepingon said:
Combine this slanted/bias review and the fact that you have not
reviewed a casio since June 2007 and one has to conclude that perhaps
the amazon acquisition has affected DPReview a little too much......
Click to expand...
I am not at all surprised to see staff respond to derision and motive-questioning with the same.

--
Decentralize and Repeal.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10454889@N06/
 
Simon Joinson said:
ngap said:
Compact can mean different things and groups always have a range.

However, comments like have said before, I can't understand.

Con, which I agree with for Pentax
We don't like: Boring zoom range (no real wideangle),

According to the table the Nikon S210 and the Olympus have the same
weakness but no comment is made about it on the what we don't like.
Consistency is these group reviews is very important
Click to expand...
You can forgive an ultra slim camera for a boring zoom range, the
Optio just doesn't stand out in any way whatsoever.
S
Click to expand...
You've just done exactly the same thing. The Optio S was innovative when it came out but Pentax have stuck in new sensors and nothing else really. It is now a bland camera, that I can't see any real reason to buy.

Unless, the have foxed the AF, inconsistencies in lens alignment resulting in soft spots on pictures and excessive body flex that means in they are carried in your pocket, they twist and break the back screen. I can't see anything going for it. Though you did come up with a couple of pros.

I just find it strange for such a poor performing camera that you choose a feature that is "forgivable" to choose as the first con.

It makes it appear that for good cameras we will "forgive" features that are listed in cons for bad cameras. It's an inconsistency in the review process. Sure its forgivable but I can't see how its not a con.
 
A very poor and unprofessional retort from Simon.

--
http://dakanji.com

'I make statements based on fact not predictions.'
KMSEA: 12:33:17 PM, Saturday, November 12, 2005 (GMT)
 
sigh

I no longer come here for the news (Engadget is much faster) or the reviews (their methodology is too suspect) but just the forums.

--
EOS 50D, 20D, 10D, 630, A-1, SD1000
-- Please remove the Quote option!
 
I would not have considered the Sony T700 as being more than a gimmick, being so thin, so the review was an eye opener. The video of the Panasonic FX37 was also curious. After reading the review I did look at the T700 and it has an impressive LCD.

That said, in the end I ordered (for my wife) a Sony T500 which may not be quite so compact as the T700 but has Sony big LCD and video.

I also ordered a Samsung 8MP Pixon (phone) for her, which I suspect will make "good enough" snaps.

The review could have refered more to other models, it refered the the smaller Sony T77 but it was by chance that I noticed the bigger T500.
 
gotoole said:
--NT
Click to expand...
I would imagine, though I've not really done it myself, that it's quite easy to criticize people's work on an internet forum and to anonymously accuse them of corruption. Certainly easier than it was producing the work in the first place.

To address the original complaint

(i) what he says simply isn't true. What he is actually complaining about is that we don't compare apples to every other apple on the planet, and therefore what we do is not only pointless but deliberately misleading.

(ii) He then goes on to suggest that this is all part of some big conspiracy and calls into question our ethics, and those of our parent company, the same old tired trolling.

We spend weeks producing an article (that never claimed to be 100% comprehensive; there's too many cameras out there), within no time the OP denounces it as entirely useless and having been written with some kind of shady agenda, mainly because it didn't feature his camera. I'm ashamed to say that this riled me and I lashed out in a way that was insensitive and didn't respect his right to state opinions as if they were facts on an internet forum.

But yes, I'm sorry, the OP didn't deserve my unprofessional response; I should've kept it to myself.

SJ
--
Simon Joinson, dpreview.com
 
Simon Joinson said:
gotoole said:
--NT
Click to expand...
I would imagine, though I've not really done it myself, that it's
quite easy to criticize people's work on an internet forum and to
anonymously accuse them of corruption. Certainly easier than it was
producing the work in the first place.

To address the original complaint
(i) what he says simply isn't true. What he is actually complaining
about is that we don't compare apples to every other apple on the
planet, and therefore what we do is not only pointless but
deliberately misleading.
(ii) He then goes on to suggest that this is all part of some big
conspiracy and calls into question our ethics, and those of our
parent company, the same old tired trolling.

We spend weeks producing an article (that never claimed to be 100%
comprehensive; there's too many cameras out there), within no time
the OP denounces it as entirely useless and having been written with
some kind of shady agenda, mainly because it didn't feature his
camera. I'm ashamed to say that this riled me and I lashed out in a
way that was insensitive and didn't respect his right to state
opinions as if they were facts on an internet forum.

But yes, I'm sorry, the OP didn't deserve my unprofessional response;
I should've kept it to myself.
Click to expand...
Well, really, I enjoyed the response more than I did the dinky list of petty annoyances and accusations from the OP.

--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com

 
Simon Joinson said:
. . . I'm ashamed to say that this riled me and I lashed out in a
way that was insensitive and didn't respect his right to state
opinions as if they were facts on an internet forum.
But yes, I'm sorry, the OP didn't deserve my unprofessional response;
I should've kept it to myself.
Click to expand...
Well put, Mr. Joinson.

Anywho, i thought it was a good review. You are right, just too many cameras to include them all in such a comparison.
--
David~
WSSA Member #90



. . . shoot like there's no film in the thing!
 
Simon Joinson said:
gotoole said:
--NT
Click to expand...
I would imagine, though I've not really done it myself, that it's
quite easy to criticize people's work on an internet forum and to
anonymously accuse them of corruption. Certainly easier than it was
producing the work in the first place.

To address the original complaint
(i) what he says simply isn't true. What he is actually complaining
about is that we don't compare apples to every other apple on the
planet, and therefore what we do is not only pointless but
deliberately misleading.
(ii) He then goes on to suggest that this is all part of some big
conspiracy and calls into question our ethics, and those of our
parent company, the same old tired trolling.

We spend weeks producing an article (that never claimed to be 100%
comprehensive; there's too many cameras out there), within no time
the OP denounces it as entirely useless and having been written with
some kind of shady agenda, mainly because it didn't feature his
camera. I'm ashamed to say that this riled me and I lashed out in a
way that was insensitive and didn't respect his right to state
opinions as if they were facts on an internet forum.

But yes, I'm sorry, the OP didn't deserve my unprofessional response;
I should've kept it to myself.

SJ
--
Simon Joinson, dpreview.com
Click to expand...
Just because someone has a perception of your practises doesn't make them "trolling" or a "troll". Any mature, competent business person would at least take the time to sit back and reflect on as to WHY some people have this perception. Rather than lashing back with an immature, unprofessional, highly defensive, over emotional response, one could ask some questions to themselves as to what the organization is doing to create this perception in people and what they can do to mitigate that perception.

Also, this isn't a one-time event. Phil has demonstrated many times over that he has no tolerance for criticism and has demonstrated the same kind of immature, unprofessional, highly defensive, over emotional responses in the past. Therefore it seems pretty clear that there's a serious leadership problem in DPR starting at the top and you've been led to believe, via that poor leadership, that your response was appropriate.

If I had an employee that responded the way you did, I would seriously be considering their future in my organization. But Phil can't do that because you learned to respond that way from Phil.

Highly disconcerting to say the least. So you can only blame yourselves for the perception that people have of you.

--
Right back at ya.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Keyboard shortcuts

f
Forum
m
My threads
Mobile site
About
Editorial content
Cameras & Lenses
Community
All content, design, and layout are Copyright © 1998–2025 Digital Photography Review All Rights Reserved.
Reproduction in whole or part in any form or medium without specific written permission is prohibited.
When you use DPReview links to buy products, the site may earn a commission.
©GPS Media - Guides, Products, Services.
Back
Top