Is DIGITAL Photograhy Photography?

Hi Cindy —

Oh, dear. The woods are full of them really, though the odd bozoid like this does manage to come outta the trees occasionally. Some find gainful employment as speed humps. Others populate committees (including, presumably, the one behind this contest).

In the end, it's often easiest to walk away to better things. But since you've gone to quite some trouble already, by the sound of things, and do want to participate, here's a couple of "discussion" points to keep up your sleeve.

1. The "digital" component of this is only a recording medium (i.e. a passive vehicle) for the photographer's creative perception, skill and effort, and not a creative process of itself.

2. If necessary get them to admit that, if any "acceptable" (photochemically produced) entry to the competition were hypothetically to be saluted or otherwise publicised via offset print, in a high quality magazine, then the viewed result would remain "authentic" — i.e. a legitimate photographic work. Then observe that such an image could virtually not exist in print in 2002 without being digitised; in this case via two digital steps: scanning and then imagesetting (either to film separations or direct to the printing plates). I doubt they'll find a way to argue around this.

Mike
 
I've just gone back to the Challenge 20 gallery to take another look at Morning Glow, and specifically the comments you made below the photograph.

Photography, to me, is about light - capturing the way you as a photographer feel about the scene in front of you in the way that you feel will communicate some of that essence to the person looking at it. This is the reason I voted for Morning Glow - it shouts loudly to me about light and your understanding of it and feeling about it.

Most of us are probably guilty at some time or another of letting technical issues get in the way of this core value, but this is after all a Digital Forum! I don't suppose you expected much opposition here to your view that Digital Photography is Photography!

On a slightly different note, I would be interested to know how many film photographers produce their final prints with a computer printer (for the County Fair).

I used to use film, my great grandparents probably used a plate camera, my children use a digital camera. So what?

--
David Barker
 
Sarah and I have spent a lot of time and effort getting a bunch of
our pics printed and framed for entry into the County fair. We
took them in for check in today. In conversation with the
checker-inner person it came up that we had digital cameras. She
told us that we should not have entered the photography division
but the Graphic Arts division because we were not doing photography
because we used a computer.
As a former graphic artist, I can tell you that there is a large body of work out there that was produced before the availability of computers. I wonder what catagory the checker inner person would put THAT in.

Regards,

Larz
 
I saw this thread last night, but was too angry to post anything rational. I can't believe people can be so ignorant. (My husband put it quite well, but unfortunately I can't repeat what he said on this site!)

I agree with what everyone else has said, mostly that:
...photography is about capturing the essence of the moment,

...that a digital camera is the same as a film camera, it just captures the image in a different way
...that using an image editing program is no different than a darkroom.

That said, here are Webster's definitions:

pho·tog·ra·phy Pronunciation Key (f-tgr-f)
n.
1. The art or process of producing images of objects on photosensitive surfaces.
2. The art, practice, or occupation of taking and printing photographs.
3. A body of photographs.

pho·to·graph Pronunciation Key (ft-grf)
n.

An image, especially a positive print, recorded by a camera and reproduced on a photosensitive surface.

pho·to·sen·si·tive Pronunciation Key (ft-sns-tv)
adj.
Sensitive or responsive to light or other radiant energy.

digital photography
n.

A method of photography in which an image is digitally encoded and stored for later reproduction.

--
--Kimberly--
I was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs...
My gallery: http://www.pbase.com/kimberlybrummitt
 
When Transistors started replacing tubes in electronics, there were people that would "never buy a system based on transistors.."

It's like everything else. Some people have a problem embracing change, even when it improves comfort(not totally yet in the case of photography, but it's just a matter of time) The problem isn't yours, it's theirs, so let them live with it.

The only problem is that if they can influence the outcome of the country fair, then it does become yours, and I believe you should contact the organizers.
I wonder how many people's photos would be disqualified if digital won't count.
Sarah and I have spent a lot of time and effort getting a bunch of
our pics printed and framed for entry into the County fair. We
took them in for check in today. In conversation with the
checker-inner person it came up that we had digital cameras. She
told us that we should not have entered the photography division
but the Graphic Arts division because we were not doing photography
because we used a computer.
As a former graphic artist, I can tell you that there is a large
body of work out there that was produced before the availability of
computers. I wonder what catagory the checker inner person would
put THAT in.

Regards,

Larz
 
Hey Cindy,

Ask her if she considers the pictures she looks at in USA Today or
the LA Times as real photography. Most photojournalists now use
digital as it allows them to be much faster to the press.

She's really just clueless. And the scary things is that there are
a lot of them around. I've had people be very impressed with some
photographs and then seem somehow less impressed once they find out
they're digital.
Or they want to know which camera you have that takes such nice pictures....
Oh well. I only care with the results, and not how I got there.
Exactly...

--
Canon D30 ~ 50mm 1.8 ~ 28-135 IS
My photo galleries: http://www.pbase.com/davidp
 
These are cameras we're using. They have a lens, a shutter
button, and guess what, just as with film: YOU MUST REMOVE THE LENS
CAP in order to get decent pictures!
hahahaha! Your are right Jared!

--
CindyD or SarahD
If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must be wrong...
 
Oh well. I only care with the results, and not how I got there.
Yeah, bottom line. And it was gratifying that when we had out pics all layed out to put the entry cards on them they attracted quite a bit of attention from passers by. Nobody asked what kind of cameras they came from, they just expressed appreciation for the pieces.

--
CindyD or SarahD
If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must be wrong...
 
I'm curious. How, exactly, did it come up that they were taken with
digital cameras?
I don't remember exactly. She didn't suspect anything and ask us, I think I just mentioned it. During this whole exchange though she showed me a couple of sunsets taken by a 707 that were entered in digital art. Evidently the gentleman had called ahead to ask if he could put his digital pics in photography and had gotten the same story, so he entered them in digital art. They were just sunsets. Nothing special, no significant post processing that I could detect. There is no way I would have called them digital art. I would sure hate to be a judge trying to compare those with real digital art! And I feel bad for him that his pics won't be hanging next to all the other photographs of sunsets (they have a whole class just for sky scenes).
In conversation with the
checker-inner person it came up that we had digital cameras.
--

Ulysses
--
CindyD or SarahD
If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must be wrong...
 
I've just gone back to the Challenge 20 gallery to take another
look at Morning Glow, and specifically the comments you made below
the photograph.

Photography, to me, is about light - capturing the way you as a
photographer feel about the scene in front of you in the way that
you feel will communicate some of that essence to the person
looking at it. This is the reason I voted for Morning Glow - it
shouts loudly to me about light and your understanding of it and
feeling about it.
Thank you

I would be interested to know how
many film photographers produce their final prints with a computer
printer (for the County Fair).
I'm not sure around here. On photosig it is very common with the fillm folks. It was interesting that during a critique session in our recent photography workshop the class agreed that there were a few things about a student's very nicely done film photography that could be improved in post processing. The instructor mentioned that the negatives could be scanned and the image processed on photoshop to take care of it. This came from a die hard film guy all the way. I think it is starting to become routine.
I used to use film, my great grandparents probably used a plate
camera, my children use a digital camera. So what?
Really, as several on this thread have mentioned, it is a technology issue which has always been there. I wonder if the first time photographers started sending their film out to labs if they were disqualified because they didn't do their own darkroom work? There will always be differences based on equipment.

--
CindyD or SarahD
If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must be wrong...
 
Thank you kimberly. I see nothing in these definitions that should have clued us in we weren't allowed!
I saw this thread last night, but was too angry to post anything
rational. I can't believe people can be so ignorant. (My husband
put it quite well, but unfortunately I can't repeat what he said on
this site!)

I agree with what everyone else has said, mostly that:
...photography is about capturing the essence of the moment,
...that a digital camera is the same as a film camera, it just
captures the image in a different way
...that using an image editing program is no different than a
darkroom.

That said, here are Webster's definitions:

pho·tog·ra·phy Pronunciation Key (f-tgr-f)
n.
1. The art or process of producing images of objects on
photosensitive surfaces.
2. The art, practice, or occupation of taking and printing
photographs.
3. A body of photographs.

pho·to·graph Pronunciation Key (ft-grf)
n.
An image, especially a positive print, recorded by a camera and
reproduced on a photosensitive surface.

pho·to·sen·si·tive Pronunciation Key (ft-sns-tv)
adj.
Sensitive or responsive to light or other radiant energy.

digital photography
n.
A method of photography in which an image is digitally encoded and
stored for later reproduction.

--
--Kimberly--
I was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs...
My gallery: http://www.pbase.com/kimberlybrummitt
--
CindyD or SarahD
If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must be wrong...
 
CindyD -

The problem that I fear is that the die has already been cast. Even if you are able to speak to someone in authority and have your image(s) admitted into the contest displays for judging, they may already be "marked/tagged/spotted" as originating from a digital camera. I doubt for a second that the woman you spoke with kept that information to herself. And that's really a shame.

Suppose your images win or place favorable or that you even get some observations on your work. Now you endure the comments of, "wow, that's pretty good for a digital camera" or perhaps "I can't believe that came from a digital camera" or the better yet "and what kind of camera did you use to take that?"

This goes towards some things that I'd already raised a question about a few days ago: First of all my question about whether we reply to others that we are photographers or not, and secondly about how we view our process of taking pictures.

It all starts off with our own view of what our output is. If they are pictures to us, then that's all they are, regardless of the originating source. As long as our primary concern was in using our lens, our command of shutter and aperture and EV values, as long as we were interested in capturing a moment or scene or expression or emotion with that tool, then we have been a PHOTOGRAPHER who has taken a PICTURE.

It starts with us. If we view them as pictures, then so will others. It won't even be a matter of conversation that we are using a digital camera. I'm sure folks who use the Mamiya's and their Minolats and their Canon Rebels and such never even bring up the point that it's a film-based camera. Why should we bring it up that our PRINT originated with a digital camera?

Unfortunately, all the opinions here in the forum won't change their present ruling, whatever that may be. And the above may be a theory that you don't get to test out until another time in some other contest. :(
Thank you kimberly. I see nothing in these definitions that should
have clued us in we weren't allowed!
--

Ulysses
 
CindyD -

I've referred to these articles before. If you're interested in some reading about how some in the film industry are embracing digital, as well as how the prejudice and fear against digital continues to be an obstacle to be surmounted, then have a look at the following editorials:

March 2001
http://www.shutterbug.net/archives/story.cfm?StoryID=3195

June 2001
http://www.shutterbug.net/archives/story.cfm !StoryID=3405

March 2002
http://www.shutterbug.net/archives/story.cfm?StoryID=4003

Just to mention a few that are studying this matter. Extremely interesting reading for those of you interested in the digital vs film issue.
Sarah and I have spent a lot of time and effort getting a bunch of
our pics printed and framed for entry into the County fair. We
took them in for check in today. In conversation with the
checker-inner person it came up that we had digital cameras. She
told us that we should not have entered the photography division
but the Graphic Arts division because we were not doing photography
because we used a computer.

I pointed out that the Graphic Arts division had no classes for
digital photography. She indicated the digital art class was
appropriate for us. Now as a side not digital art is a single
class with 4 entries allowed. The Photography division has 16 B&W
and 16 color classes that EACH allow 4 entries.

I told her our prints were processed by Fuji just like film
photographers and I also asked if she had questioned all the film
photographers if they had scanned in their negatives and processed
their pics on the computer, as many did that. She was dumbfounded
by that question and indicated that real photographers all do their
own darkroom work anyway.

She ended up leaving them in but telling us the judge could
disqualify them. What are your thoughts on this? Anyone else ever
experience this sort of discrimination. I mean this isn't even
"separate but equal" treatment because we could only enter 4 images
each in digital art verses just about as many as we would ever want
to in photography!

Our peevation was (is) at the maximum! Cindy
--
CindyD or SarahD
If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must
be wrong...
--

Ulysses
 
I've had mixed experiences in this regard... at the college where I work they had a "week in the life of" contest and I entered a bunch of digital images. They knew they were digital and did not mind at all. In fact they were happy to have copies on CD since one of the things they planned to do was use the images in publications. (I knew this and was fine with it since I work there and I like sharing my work especially with that place since it is so student oriented... great school!) Anyhow I won four first places and was chosen as the judges' "photographer with the best eye." Boy was I delighted I gotta tell you.

On the other hand, there are a number of photo contests that I would like to enter that don't take digital pictures - Alaska Airlines contest for one. And Costco has a separate category for digital images... At least you can submit them.

I think this will gradually change as more and more people switch from film to digital cameras and as the cameras get better and better. Sorry you guys got caught in the middle of this. :(

Ann
Sarah and I have spent a lot of time and effort getting a bunch of
our pics printed and framed for entry into the County fair. We
took them in for check in today. In conversation with the
checker-inner person it came up that we had digital cameras. She
told us that we should not have entered the photography division
but the Graphic Arts division because we were not doing photography
because we used a computer.

I pointed out that the Graphic Arts division had no classes for
digital photography. She indicated the digital art class was
appropriate for us. Now as a side not digital art is a single
class with 4 entries allowed. The Photography division has 16 B&W
and 16 color classes that EACH allow 4 entries.

I told her our prints were processed by Fuji just like film
photographers and I also asked if she had questioned all the film
photographers if they had scanned in their negatives and processed
their pics on the computer, as many did that. She was dumbfounded
by that question and indicated that real photographers all do their
own darkroom work anyway.

She ended up leaving them in but telling us the judge could
disqualify them. What are your thoughts on this? Anyone else ever
experience this sort of discrimination. I mean this isn't even
"separate but equal" treatment because we could only enter 4 images
each in digital art verses just about as many as we would ever want
to in photography!

Our peevation was (is) at the maximum! Cindy
--
CindyD or SarahD
If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must
be wrong...
--
also known as PT Kitty > ^..^

http://www.pbase.com/ptkitty/galleries
 
I've had mixed experiences in this regard... at the college where I
work they had a "week in the life of" contest and I entered a bunch
of digital images. They knew they were digital and did not mind at
all.
Ann, my question to you is similar to one I asked of CindyD earlier:
How did they KNOW that these were digital images, exactly?

--

Ulysses
 
Two reasons: As for the college contest, I told them and they wanted the negatives. I gave them a CD with images on it and they were delighted to have it. Already several of my images have appeared in college publications with full credit to me.

As for contests, they also want access to the original so I think you have to be up front about what kind of images they are. Some contests say flat out no digital. As I mentioned, Costco's has a category for digital.
I've had mixed experiences in this regard... at the college where I
work they had a "week in the life of" contest and I entered a bunch
of digital images. They knew they were digital and did not mind at
all.
Ann, my question to you is similar to one I asked of CindyD earlier:
How did they KNOW that these were digital images, exactly?

--

Ulysses
--
also known as PT Kitty > ^..^

http://www.pbase.com/ptkitty/galleries
 
Thanks for the added detail, Ann.

Please, don't think that my comments were intended to say that we should "hide" somehow that our images are from digital cameras. Not at all. Some contests demand to know the origin, have negatives, and then categorize the pictures in this way. But lots of others do not.

What my comments are about go towards our own approach as photographers and the effect that this approach can have on the way others perceive our photos.
Two reasons: As for the college contest, I told them and they
wanted the negatives. I gave them a CD with images on it and they
were delighted to have it. Already several of my images have
appeared in college publications with full credit to me.

As for contests, they also want access to the original so I think
you have to be up front about what kind of images they are. Some
contests say flat out no digital. As I mentioned, Costco's has a
category for digital.
 
Hi CindyD,

You and Sarah must have some fantastic photos entered in the contest and I hope you win some awards.

Since I live and breath digital camera, digital movie camera and computers it always amazes me when I run across someone who looks at my 707 very intently and is amazed when I show them the photos I've just taken on the LCD. Despite all the ads and commercials on TV, it's brand new to them.

Since I've been avidly taking photos since I was able to press a shutter I just assume everyone has a camera and carries it with them just like I do, but it's not true. Some cameras simply gather dust on some closet shelf, hauled out for holidays only. Some people don't have computers. Some people don't have e-mail accounts. Some people hate computers. Some people can't type and don't want to learn. Some people are afraid of computers, remote controls, VCRs (add me to the VCR crowd those things simply do not have to be so confusing!). Some people don't like the fact that cars have computerized parts that can't be taken out and fixed, and the list goes on and on.

Probably this checker-in person is a very nice person volunteering at the fair who is not computer savvy. Maybe she's into other things, but a little knowledge like, "digital must mean computer" is enough to be dangerous to you and Sarah.

The idea that all "real" photographers do their own darkroom work is also out of step with the real world.

Let's hope the judges are a little more experienced and up to date.

Good Luck!

--Dee
 

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