Two D60's, both with focusing problems.

David, I am still waiting on my first d60 which I hope will not have the problems you are having. I am very interested to hear about your results as I am trying to get started doing exactly what you are doing. i have a 50 1.8 and a Phoenix 19-35. I know, I know. but it's all I have at the moment. till I can buy better. Anyway, I wanted to say that I really enjoy your style of shooting. I would love to know what light you are using in some of those shots if you don't mind. Great pics.
 
I think the problem still has a great chance to be in the lens.

The AF sensor only looks at the little "focus points", so the closed loop control system only adjust the lenses for that point.

For other points, who knows? Maybe some elements inside the lens was shifted just a little bit??? that make the focus was just right at the focus points and not right at some other points.

Just a guess :-)

Thanh
Remember,
the focus sensor and the focusing electronics/software are in the
camera, not the lens. The focusing "decisions" are made in the
camera. This was the control system I was describing, not the
mechanical movement system in the lens. The system described in
the web site is simply the electronics which activate the stepper
motor and then sense the focus ring movement... it is not making
focus decisions.
 
DAvid,
was just curious as to where you measured to on the camera?
Did you use the film plane marker on the camera body or to the front of lens?

Jim C.
Do mean one end of the tape was at your feet, and it was extending
directly away from you? And you focused at the 1, 3, 6, 9-foot
marks on the tape?
Yep.Crouched down low though.
David Jay
 
Cirkitdude wrote:

I understand what you are saying, and it makes perfect sense, but if it were true, then no EF lens could be "off" iin terms of AF accuracy internally and adjustable within the lens itself.

Remember, I'm talking about visibly being able to manually correct focus to a sharper point than the AF achieves, with no defect in AF performance of the body itself ( AF light illuminates to confirm focus in camera ). The AF light in camera CAN be on steady with AF off ( usually slightly but enough to cause poor resolution ) Again...talk to a Canon repairman and he'll tell you that what I have described is QUITE possible. We're not talking theory here....Pete.
That's a very interesting web site... I enjoyed it. Thanks. It's
great to get a chance to see the inner workings of something like
USM lenses.

However, if you intended it to shed some light on the discussion of
focus problems, unfortunately it doesn't. What the photocoupler
discussion describes is how the USM stepper motor works and how the
onboard lens electronics sense the focus ring movement. Remember,
the focus sensor and the focusing electronics/software are in the
camera, not the lens. The focusing "decisions" are made in the
camera. This was the control system I was describing, not the
mechanical movement system in the lens. The system described in
the web site is simply the electronics which activate the stepper
motor and then sense the focus ring movement... it is not making
focus decisions.

I will say, the one thing this web site does shed some light on is,
as I stated earlier, modern AF lenses are very complicated beasts.
Certainly, there are lots of things to go wrong. But, focusing
decisions are controlled in the camera.

My disagreement with your original post was not that a problem
might exist in the lens, it was with your statement:
If the lens has an internal AF error, the camera AF can be correct,
but the ultrasonic motor "moves" to the wrong position.
This is not consistent with modern feedback control systems, and
certainly not the way the D60 focus system works. Any error
generated because the motor "moves" to the wrong position would
show up on the camera AF sensor and new instructions would be
issued to the lens... this process continues until the lens is in a
focus state that the camera AF decides is "best focus".

I have no disagreement with another of your statements that sending
in both camera and lense might save time by having both checked.
But it seems to me one could do that at home by simply trying a
different lens and determining if the problem is the camera AF out
of calibration or a faulty lens.

Regards.
Check out in particular the description of the photocoupler as
described by Chuck Westfall.
Best wishes, Pete.
Thus if the lens is a little out of whack, an active feedback
control system will null out any mismatch error with the lens... it
will keep pulsing the lens until focus is achieved (minimizing the
error).

If the system was open-loop, as you describe, accurate focus across
many lenses would be hopeless... there is no way to control
manufacturing tolerances to those levels.

It is highly unlikely that this is a lens-camera combination
problem. The only way one can imagine the lens causing this
problem is if it has an electronics problem causing the stepper
motor to oscillate between front and rear focus... thus a lens
failure, not a combination failure.
The way the Canon EOS System functions, at least with the
Ultrasonic lenses, is that the camera body tells the lens AF motor
how may "pulses" and in which direction to move the lens assembly.
If the lens has an internal AF error, the camera AF can be correct,
but the ultrasonic motor "moves" to the wrong position. Many Pro's
have had to send in their fast EF teles for adjustment after heavy
use ( and abuse! ) to correct AF error in the lens itself.

What I'm saying is that maybe the 50 1.4 lens is off, and the D60
camera body is fine. I'd check it with some other fast lenses. It
would also be interesting to check the camera/lens combo at
infinity to see what the lens indication is ( how far off the mark
is the inf. mark on the barrel ). Possibly the CMOS sensor is off,
but Canon's check on the AF sensor distance reads as OK. Pete.
http://www.petestone.com
--
pete stone
 
Use middle point autofous on a contrast edge. Period. Will be accurate most every time. Don't use manual focus.

If you need to recompose, use CF2,2 *

MAC
In the last week I've received two D60's from two retailers. I'm a
professional fashion photographer and shoot a lot of close-up
"beauty" with VERY shallow depth of field. Accurate focus is
critical.....obviously.
So I tested as follows: 50mm 1.4, wide open. Laid a tape measure
out on the floor, crouched down in front of it and shot at 0ft,
1ft, 3ft, 6ft, 9ft. First focusing manually and then repeating with
autofocus. Results: EVERY PICTURE OUT OF FOCUS. Manual in front,
auto behind. BOTH CAMERAS.
Overrnighted one body to CPS. They adjusted it and overnighted it
back to me today. Tested it again. Result. Exactly the same. Every
picture out of focus. Called CPS, spoke with tech, he assured me he
had adjusted it "spot on" 12 hours before. Its on its way back to
CPS for round 2.
Houston, we've got a problem.
David Jay
--
 
Hello R.Kea,

Thanks for the kind words.Glad you enjoyed the pictures. As for the lighting:different for every shoot. Ranging from very simple to very complex. This probably isn't the place to discuss it and my horrible typing skills keep me from going on at any length: )

Don't worry about the quality of your equipment R.Kea, the camera is by far the least important part of photography.
David Jay
David, I am still waiting on my first d60 which I hope will not
have the problems you are having. I am very interested to hear
about your results as I am trying to get started doing exactly
what you are doing. i have a 50 1.8 and a Phoenix 19-35. I know, I
know. but it's all I have at the moment. till I can buy better.
Anyway, I wanted to say that I really enjoy your style of shooting.
I would love to know what light you are using in some of those
shots if you don't mind. Great pics.
--
http://www.davidjayphotography.com
 
Use middle point autofous on a contrast edge. Period. Will be
accurate most every time. Don't use manual focus.

If you need to recompose, use CF2,2 *

MAC
Mac,
This thread needed a little humor.
Thankyou!
David Jay
 
I have visions of missing loctite and then jiggling in the back of
a UPS truck for 20 hours, let alone multiple 2 foot drops on
converyors - that's why I'm having Canoga send my replacement via
next-day air. But Greg said they ship these ground all the time and
never have a problem (but then again, maybe my experience
contradicts that).
--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise
Having the disease of being an "AudioPhile" my friends and I discuss this topic all the time... IE, what do you thing would be the best way to ship it?

UPS's own instructions say that "Packaging must be sufficient to withstand a FIVE FOOT DROP"... That's the distance they drop the packages out of the plane while unloading.

Did you ever see a UPS plane being unloaded at the airport I have.... It's not pretty....

I have numerous friends that worked at the major shipping companies. and they tell me they would never ship anything important! These disgruntled workers frequently drop kick packages throw them 20ft into, and out of trucks etc...

On average I've always had better luck with Fedex.... But....

Tony B.
 
hi david

i have just made a test... d60 with my ef 50mm 1:1.0... you are right... focus should be within a certain range... (just mm... no more) I am lucky because this/my combo focuses quite perfectly... lets say within 3-5mm... and that is where it should be... it does not matter if auto- manual focused...

wish you good luck with your two bodies... canon should be able to get them accurate to you...

peter

ps. this is a crop... the middle focus point marked red...


Never use it. It's useless for the vast majority of images I do.
The visual auto focus points are often ambigious and not nearly as
refined as my eye. (Fortunately my right eye is nearly perfect [one
click from center on the eyepiece adjustment] .I'd rather not
discuss my left eye!).
Consequently I am not surprised that the auto focus is
off.........for whatever reasons people might suggest. I DO care
about the manual focus though. There is no ambiguity whatsoever FOR
ME when I manual focus. The exact point of focus is crystal clear
in the viewfinder. Even more so with the camera mounted on a sturdy
tripod. The results are crystal clear as well: The focus is off
with these two bodies and two off the shelf 50mm 1.4's.
David Jay

Addendum: Just tried a 85mm 1.8. WAY better than the 50
1.4's..........but still off. Unfortunately, " a miss is as good as
a mile" when it comes to something as obvious as focus.
By the way, these lenses feel like cr&p. At least there cheap!
--
http://www.davidjayphotography.com
 
UPS's own instructions say that "Packaging must be sufficient to
withstand a FIVE FOOT DROP"... That's the distance they drop the
packages out of the plane while unloading.

Did you ever see a UPS plane being unloaded at the airport I
have.... It's not pretty....
UPS told me that next-day is all hand carried and never goes on a conveyor. Not so for second-day. FWIW I've shipped hundreds of items UPS over the last 20 years and only ever had two problems. Someone punched a forklift into a well packed glass lamp, breaking it, and in the other case a poorly packed (by the ebay seller) dial-up server worth $5k fell about 15 feet off a UPS conveyor and was totally destroyed. UPS paid up in both cases.

OTHO I would -never- ship anything larger than a letter via USPS.
  • DL
I have numerous friends that worked at the major shipping
companies. and they tell me they would never ship anything
important! These disgruntled workers frequently drop kick packages
throw them 20ft into, and out of trucks etc...

On average I've always had better luck with Fedex.... But....

Tony B.
 
Hello Peter,
I'm jealous! I'd be VERY happy with that result. Thanks for your input.
David Jay
.
i have just made a test... d60 with my ef 50mm 1:1.0... you are
right... focus should be within a certain range... (just mm... no
more) I am lucky because this/my combo focuses quite perfectly...
lets say within 3-5mm... and that is where it should be... it does
not matter if auto- manual focused...

wish you good luck with your two bodies... canon should be able to
get them accurate to you...

peter

ps. this is a crop... the middle focus point marked red...


Never use it. It's useless for the vast majority of images I do.
The visual auto focus points are often ambigious and not nearly as
refined as my eye. (Fortunately my right eye is nearly perfect [one
click from center on the eyepiece adjustment] .I'd rather not
discuss my left eye!).
Consequently I am not surprised that the auto focus is
off.........for whatever reasons people might suggest. I DO care
about the manual focus though. There is no ambiguity whatsoever FOR
ME when I manual focus. The exact point of focus is crystal clear
in the viewfinder. Even more so with the camera mounted on a sturdy
tripod. The results are crystal clear as well: The focus is off
with these two bodies and two off the shelf 50mm 1.4's.
David Jay

Addendum: Just tried a 85mm 1.8. WAY better than the 50
1.4's..........but still off. Unfortunately, " a miss is as good as
a mile" when it comes to something as obvious as focus.
By the way, these lenses feel like cr&p. At least there cheap!
--
http://www.davidjayphotography.com
--
http://www.davidjayphotography.com
 
Dave

I tried a test similar to the one you described. Attached is the resized test shot. I was focusing in on 13 inches. It looks good to me. Any comments?


In the last week I've received two D60's from two retailers. I'm a
professional fashion photographer and shoot a lot of close-up
"beauty" with VERY shallow depth of field. Accurate focus is
critical.....obviously.
So I tested as follows: 50mm 1.4, wide open. Laid a tape measure
out on the floor, crouched down in front of it and shot at 0ft,
1ft, 3ft, 6ft, 9ft. First focusing manually and then repeating with
autofocus. Results: EVERY PICTURE OUT OF FOCUS. Manual in front,
auto behind. BOTH CAMERAS.
Overrnighted one body to CPS. They adjusted it and overnighted it
back to me today. Tested it again. Result. Exactly the same. Every
picture out of focus. Called CPS, spoke with tech, he assured me he
had adjusted it "spot on" 12 hours before. Its on its way back to
CPS for round 2.
Houston, we've got a problem.
David Jay
--
 
Dave,

I was using a 28-70mm f/2.8 L USM at f/2.8, 70mm at 2'. I am going to do some more testing tomorrow at longer distances and also try it my 70-200mm f/2.8 L USM.

With all the numerous problems I have been reading about in this forum, the focusing issue was one that concerned me the most. I decided to try a test similar to yours to see if I had the same problem. It was a relief to see that the focus was good with the one lens.
Thanks for the heads up, but I'll keep mine, sorry.

Steve C.
Dave
I tried a test similar to the one you described. Attached is the
resized test shot. I was focusing in on 13 inches. It looks good to
me. Any comments?
--
http://www.davidjayphotography.com
 
Steve, David,

I want to replicate this test with my D60 and several lenses. Can you tell me how to conduct the same test? ie where is the camera in relation to the ruler (at the zero end? so far back from the end? How high above the floor etc.)
Thanks for your sharing guys!
Neil
Steve C.
Dave
I tried a test similar to the one you described. Attached is the
resized test shot. I was focusing in on 13 inches. It looks good to
me. Any comments?
--
http://www.davidjayphotography.com
--
Call me names, but don't stop me dreaming!
 
Hello Neil,
Here's how I do it:

Lay a tape measure out on the floor to a length of perhaps 9 feet.
Put camera on a tripod at a height of about 1.5 ft.
Camera looking down the length of the tape.
Camera placed just far enough back so it is able to focus reliably on 1ft mark.
SET LENS TO MANUAL. Focus in center of viewfinder.
Shoot 1ft, 2ft, 3ft, etc. (Maybe raise the camera a foot or two after 6 feet)
Set lens to auto focus.
Repeat.
Check it out.

By the way, make sure you shoot wide open. Your checking for focus not sharpness.
David Jay
Steve C.
Dave
I tried a test similar to the one you described. Attached is the
resized test shot. I was focusing in on 13 inches. It looks good to
me. Any comments?
--
http://www.davidjayphotography.com
--
Call me names, but don't stop me dreaming!
--
http://www.davidjayphotography.com
 
David,

Most of this thread has been speculation on possible problems with the autofocus system. I just re-read your first post, where you said the autofocus focuses behind, and manual focus focuses in front. If manual focus isn't working, seems to me that implies a mechanical positioning problem with the focusing screen, or potentially something wrong with the mirror, or the position of the lens mount. Can't be in the lenses in the case of manual focus.

If Canon didn't look at the manual focusing part of the problem, they might have somehow been adjusting the autofocus side to compensate for these mechnical problems, and not had much luck.
 
Hi All!

I think David is going about all of this just fine. Are forgetting how SLR's work?

Though I am not an optical expert, I see that the Canon D60 has three optical axes.
  1. 1: Lens-> Mirror-> Screen -> Pentaprism -> Human Eyeball (Manual Focus)
  2. 2: Lens-> Mirror-> Semi Silvered section-> secondary mirror-> Contrast Detection (Auto Focus)
  3. 3: Lens-> Film Plane (CMOS detector, our film)
Since David is close focusing, the lens mount or lens adjustment is immaterial since the focusing point is within the helical mechanism. This is why most lenses have additional testing at infinity since that will unmask mount issues. But his style of testing this makes sense for his work since fashion photogs don't use infinity too often! ;) (And he SHOULD be testing his equipment-he makes money at this!)

We are using, in essence, a "fancy" rangefiunder in that while we believe we have a spot-on focus, it is so only if the optical path through the pentaprism matches the path to the film plane.

When David focused, I presume he had the image in focus, likewise the AF detector. This scenario means that NONE of the three optical axes matched each other. That means at minimum two of three axes are out of spec. If the manual and AF were equally out of focus then that would implcate the CMOS chip alone. But this means either the viewfiner or AF are additionally out of spec, or they are BOTH out of spec and the film plane is fine. That sounds serious!

I am concerned at this problem. I am looking at purchasing a D60 myself, but I worry about such stuff. Liklihood is that I/we wouldn't notice too much as we use smaller apetures less critically. What I more worry about is that the CMOS detector is not well fixed. In film cameras the focal plane is easily set with rails, pressure plate and film itself maintaining position. You'd have to trash a camera to disturd the film plane.

But digicams have sensors that are dropped in and-I imagine-calibrated. If the calibration is loose or flimsy we could be in a world of hurt. Perhaps this is a QC issue that Canon has not had to focus on until the advent of digital cameras?

We REALLY want to hear how this turns out!

--Steve DeNagy
In the last week I've received two D60's from two retailers. I'm a
professional fashion photographer and shoot a lot of close-up
"beauty" with VERY shallow depth of field. Accurate focus is
critical.....obviously.
So I tested as follows: 50mm 1.4, wide open. Laid a tape measure
out on the floor, crouched down in front of it and shot at 0ft,
1ft, 3ft, 6ft, 9ft. First focusing manually and then repeating with
autofocus. Results: EVERY PICTURE OUT OF FOCUS. Manual in front,
auto behind. BOTH CAMERAS.
Overrnighted one body to CPS. They adjusted it and overnighted it
back to me today. Tested it again. Result. Exactly the same. Every
picture out of focus. Called CPS, spoke with tech, he assured me he
had adjusted it "spot on" 12 hours before. Its on its way back to
CPS for round 2.
Houston, we've got a problem.
David Jay
--
 

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