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Is DIGITAL Photograhy Photography?

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1ofUs!

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Sarah and I have spent a lot of time and effort getting a bunch of our pics printed and framed for entry into the County fair. We took them in for check in today. In conversation with the checker-inner person it came up that we had digital cameras. She told us that we should not have entered the photography division but the Graphic Arts division because we were not doing photography because we used a computer.

I pointed out that the Graphic Arts division had no classes for digital photography. She indicated the digital art class was appropriate for us. Now as a side not digital art is a single class with 4 entries allowed. The Photography division has 16 B&W and 16 color classes that EACH allow 4 entries.

I told her our prints were processed by Fuji just like film photographers and I also asked if she had questioned all the film photographers if they had scanned in their negatives and processed their pics on the computer, as many did that. She was dumbfounded by that question and indicated that real photographers all do their own darkroom work anyway.

She ended up leaving them in but telling us the judge could disqualify them. What are your thoughts on this? Anyone else ever experience this sort of discrimination. I mean this isn't even "separate but equal" treatment because we could only enter 4 images each in digital art verses just about as many as we would ever want to in photography!

Our peevation was (is) at the maximum! Cindy
--
CindyD or SarahD
If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must be wrong...
 
You need to goto the person who is above this woman. Don't let her bully you around or tell you the judges are going to disqualify it.

I have judged photography and the like at a county fair and the way we did it, we were shown the entries, with no names/identifying factors that we could see (they were taped face down on the back) to prevent any sort of favoring, also nobody could talk to us about the pics beforehand (like "your going to like the one of the sunset, or these are digital" or anything like that.

I would almost say this woman is rooting for somebody else - it's not her place to point out specifics about certain pictures. Sounds like small-town shenanigans going on.
 
of course digital photography is photography but unfortunately that view is not shared by many traditional photographers as well as much of the general public.
it is for that reason i don't list camera model at photosig.

i went through this whole scenario with mac computers which were, and still are, considered just toys and not real computers.

i expect the same reaction with digital cameras. they're not real cameras, they're just toys.

inspite of all that, i will not bend to the will of all those digiphobics out there. i refuse to shoot another roll of film.
i just pray to the money god that i can get a d-slr some day.

there's no reason on earth why they shouldn't allow yours and sarahs entries on those grounds tho. it's simply ludicrous their reasoning.

i sure hope they don't tag all your entries with the dreaded taken by a digital camera .
i hope the judges are somewhat more enlightened then the checker-inner person.
good luck.
1ofUs! said:
Sarah and I have spent a lot of time and effort getting a bunch of
our pics printed and framed for entry into the County fair. We
took them in for check in today. In conversation with the
checker-inner person it came up that we had digital cameras. She
told us that we should not have entered the photography division
but the Graphic Arts division because we were not doing photography
because we used a computer.

I pointed out that the Graphic Arts division had no classes for
digital photography. She indicated the digital art class was
appropriate for us. Now as a side not digital art is a single
class with 4 entries allowed. The Photography division has 16 B&W
and 16 color classes that EACH allow 4 entries.

I told her our prints were processed by Fuji just like film
photographers and I also asked if she had questioned all the film
photographers if they had scanned in their negatives and processed
their pics on the computer, as many did that. She was dumbfounded
by that question and indicated that real photographers all do their
own darkroom work anyway.

She ended up leaving them in but telling us the judge could
disqualify them. What are your thoughts on this? Anyone else ever
experience this sort of discrimination. I mean this isn't even
"separate but equal" treatment because we could only enter 4 images
each in digital art verses just about as many as we would ever want
to in photography!

Our peevation was (is) at the maximum! Cindy
--
CindyD or SarahD
If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must
be wrong...
Click to expand...
--
cUrVe
http://homepage.mac.com/curve

'the hardest thing to see is what is in front of your eyes.'
 
I was going to write that, he who does the processing in the darkroom is really doing things himself, but isn't using that special chemical formula to get better contrast and sharpness the equivalent of using Unsharp Mask or Auto Enchancement?
 
Photography is more than just pointing a camera and pressing the button.

It's about cropping to get an individual's eye to see what you, the photographer, wants the individual to see. It's about capturing the mood, the essence of the moment. Conveying a feeling, a message.

The medium of storage contains only what you told it to. It's the contents of what's being stored that's important. It's what we see and feel in our hearts at the time of the picture being taken that's important.

That is photography.

And I say this, being a systems software developer.

--
Focus on the perfection of the moment.
 
There must be rules to govern the contest. She should have been able back up what was said with some facts. If not then allow you to enter the photos.
 
Here's how it is. I spend allot of time on some pro sites and its really easy. There is no difference at all. F/stops, shutter, focal length's etc are all exactly the same as it has always been. Allot of pro's are now finding that digital images are getting excepted more and more for publications.

A few even go as far as to have the digital image processed to a slide. They then submit it and the publisher's are knocked out by the quality. Who is going to tell these great nature pro's that they are no longer photographers because they changed to a different meduim. Simple, you can't.

Newspaper photographers are now almost all digital taker's. Do we now have to refer to them as being ex-photographers and now are digital imager's. Don't try it, LOL. :-))

It's all in the eye's and mind of the photographer, not the meduim or camera brand used.

Maybe REAL photography is with using very large format and 35mm film is not REAL photography either :-)). Just kidding of course but just as insane. Maybe slide film is real photgraphy and negatives are not ;-)). Similar again IMHO.

All the best and interesting thought's for sure.

Danny.

--
Macro, what a world.
.............................
http://www.macrophotos.com
 
There is nothing on our entries indicating camera type, and many of our images I believe to be indistinguishable from film, although some you can tell. So unless she tells the judge, I don't think he will know for sure they are digital. He may know some of them have been digitally processed, but again, that could be done with a film image as well.

Now, any suggestions for how to explain this to the fair board? Does anyone have a reference to a definition of digital art? Which I've always assumed were highly modified images with things morphed, colored, added, and taken out? I would hate to have to judge a class of regular old (digital) photography mixed in with morphed aliens or something. For that matter, I have no desire to have a separate digital photography division added next year. I would prefer to just have photography. Like was pointed out, there have always been differences in technology which often translate to differences in the end product. Why is this any different?

Cindy
1ofUs! said:
Sarah and I have spent a lot of time and effort getting a bunch of
our pics printed and framed for entry into the County fair. We
took them in for check in today. In conversation with the
checker-inner person it came up that we had digital cameras. She
told us that we should not have entered the photography division
but the Graphic Arts division because we were not doing photography
because we used a computer.

I pointed out that the Graphic Arts division had no classes for
digital photography. She indicated the digital art class was
appropriate for us. Now as a side not digital art is a single
class with 4 entries allowed. The Photography division has 16 B&W
and 16 color classes that EACH allow 4 entries.

I told her our prints were processed by Fuji just like film
photographers and I also asked if she had questioned all the film
photographers if they had scanned in their negatives and processed
their pics on the computer, as many did that. She was dumbfounded
by that question and indicated that real photographers all do their
own darkroom work anyway.

She ended up leaving them in but telling us the judge could
disqualify them. What are your thoughts on this? Anyone else ever
experience this sort of discrimination. I mean this isn't even
"separate but equal" treatment because we could only enter 4 images
each in digital art verses just about as many as we would ever want
to in photography!

Our peevation was (is) at the maximum! Cindy
--
CindyD or SarahD
If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must
be wrong...
Click to expand...
--
CindyD or SarahD
If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must be wrong...
 
Monty said:
There must be rules to govern the contest. She should have been
able back up what was said with some facts. If not then allow you
to enter the photos.
Click to expand...
I requested rules and definitions of classes etc. from several different sources, nobody knew of any, they just referred me back to the premium book that just lists the classes by name, it doesn't go into any detail.

I honestly don't think they intended to put digital photography into digital art, I just think nobody every considered it before and as soon as they heard "computer" well then thats under the Graphics division. Unbelievable!
--
CindyD or SarahD
If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must be wrong...
 
this is from a web site for digital art submissions.

Digital art? Is the meaning not obvious? Yes? No?! Okay then.

The term digital art refers to work that is created on a computer using a program such as Adobe Photoshop (or for that matter a 3D program or Macromedia Flash). In addition to this the work must also be considered artistic in some form or another.

this is me again.

the key word here is created . digital art usually starts off with a blank screen (just like a blank canvas) and images are then added, altered, tweaked and what have you.

what you are doing with photoshop is not digital art. you are using photoshop merely as a substitute for a darkroom. if all you're doing is cropping, adjusting, toning, burning, dodging, even removing telephone poles sticking out of peoples heads, you are doing nothing different from what a traditional darkroom based photographer is doing.

photographs in and of themselves are not digital art . heavily modified ones like you have mentioned with other images added and all kinds of special effects (morphing etc.) would then have to be considered no longer a photograph but digital art. of course heavily modified can be taken many ways by many people but i would say yours and sarahs photographs are photographs, plain and simple.
digitally processed and digital art are not the same thing.

what's really funny is the same people who think digital photography is not photography because it has been processed on a computer think nothing of buying a painting at a starving artists show at the holiday inn, not realizing that these paintings are not paintings at all but photomechanically reproduced and then embossed with fake paint strokes.
all you can do is shake your head and laugh and hope things eventually change.
1ofUs! said:
Now, any suggestions for how to explain this to the fair board?
Does anyone have a reference to a definition of digital art? Which
I've always assumed were highly modified images with things
morphed, colored, added, and taken out? I would hate to have to
judge a class of regular old (digital) photography mixed in with
morphed aliens or something. For that matter, I have no desire to
have a separate digital photography division added next year. I
would prefer to just have photography. Like was pointed out, there
have always been differences in technology which often translate to
differences in the end product. Why is this any different?

Cindy
1ofUs! said:
Sarah and I have spent a lot of time and effort getting a bunch of
our pics printed and framed for entry into the County fair. We
took them in for check in today. In conversation with the
checker-inner person it came up that we had digital cameras. She
told us that we should not have entered the photography division
but the Graphic Arts division because we were not doing photography
because we used a computer.

I pointed out that the Graphic Arts division had no classes for
digital photography. She indicated the digital art class was
appropriate for us. Now as a side not digital art is a single
class with 4 entries allowed. The Photography division has 16 B&W
and 16 color classes that EACH allow 4 entries.

I told her our prints were processed by Fuji just like film
photographers and I also asked if she had questioned all the film
photographers if they had scanned in their negatives and processed
their pics on the computer, as many did that. She was dumbfounded
by that question and indicated that real photographers all do their
own darkroom work anyway.

She ended up leaving them in but telling us the judge could
disqualify them. What are your thoughts on this? Anyone else ever
experience this sort of discrimination. I mean this isn't even
"separate but equal" treatment because we could only enter 4 images
each in digital art verses just about as many as we would ever want
to in photography!

Our peevation was (is) at the maximum! Cindy
--
CindyD or SarahD
If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must
be wrong...
Click to expand...
--
CindyD or SarahD
If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must
be wrong...
Click to expand...
--
cUrVe
http://homepage.mac.com/curve

'the hardest thing to see is what is in front of your eyes.'
 
It's not like you were out running around with a flatbed scanner scanning leaves or something.

These are cameras we're using. They have a lens, a shutter button, and guess what, just as with film: YOU MUST REMOVE THE LENS CAP in order to get decent pictures!

As far as function goes, there's really no difference. Most importantly, the finished product, if printed on photo paper is the same. You can crop/edit/etc your pictures, or you can print them directly out of the camera with no post processing. With film you can drop it off at a one-hour place, or you can take it to a specialty lab.

Go to dictionary.com and look up photograph, and photography.

The whole prejudice thing is out of line.
1ofUs! said:
Sarah and I have spent a lot of time and effort getting a bunch of
our pics printed and framed for entry into the County fair. We
took them in for check in today. In conversation with the
checker-inner person it came up that we had digital cameras. She
told us that we should not have entered the photography division
but the Graphic Arts division because we were not doing photography
because we used a computer.

I pointed out that the Graphic Arts division had no classes for
digital photography. She indicated the digital art class was
appropriate for us. Now as a side not digital art is a single
class with 4 entries allowed. The Photography division has 16 B&W
and 16 color classes that EACH allow 4 entries.

I told her our prints were processed by Fuji just like film
photographers and I also asked if she had questioned all the film
photographers if they had scanned in their negatives and processed
their pics on the computer, as many did that. She was dumbfounded
by that question and indicated that real photographers all do their
own darkroom work anyway.

She ended up leaving them in but telling us the judge could
disqualify them. What are your thoughts on this? Anyone else ever
experience this sort of discrimination. I mean this isn't even
"separate but equal" treatment because we could only enter 4 images
each in digital art verses just about as many as we would ever want
to in photography!

Our peevation was (is) at the maximum! Cindy
--
CindyD or SarahD
If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must
be wrong...
Click to expand...
--
Jared

DSC-F707
 
Hey Cindy,

Ask her if she considers the pictures she looks at in USA Today or the LA Times as real photography. Most photojournalists now use digital as it allows them to be much faster to the press.

She's really just clueless. And the scary things is that there are a lot of them around. I've had people be very impressed with some photographs and then seem somehow less impressed once they find out they're digital.

Oh well. I only care with the results, and not how I got there.

Jim
1ofUs! said:
Sarah and I have spent a lot of time and effort getting a bunch of
our pics printed and framed for entry into the County fair. We
took them in for check in today. In conversation with the
checker-inner person it came up that we had digital cameras. She
told us that we should not have entered the photography division
but the Graphic Arts division because we were not doing photography
because we used a computer.

I pointed out that the Graphic Arts division had no classes for
digital photography. She indicated the digital art class was
appropriate for us. Now as a side not digital art is a single
class with 4 entries allowed. The Photography division has 16 B&W
and 16 color classes that EACH allow 4 entries.

I told her our prints were processed by Fuji just like film
photographers and I also asked if she had questioned all the film
photographers if they had scanned in their negatives and processed
their pics on the computer, as many did that. She was dumbfounded
by that question and indicated that real photographers all do their
own darkroom work anyway.

She ended up leaving them in but telling us the judge could
disqualify them. What are your thoughts on this? Anyone else ever
experience this sort of discrimination. I mean this isn't even
"separate but equal" treatment because we could only enter 4 images
each in digital art verses just about as many as we would ever want
to in photography!

Our peevation was (is) at the maximum! Cindy
--
CindyD or SarahD
If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must
be wrong...
Click to expand...
--
Jim Fuglestad
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries
 
This is the type of undue prejudice that I mentioned digital photographers are subject to (refer to the Poll: What do you hate about digital photography).

What the two of you experienced is frankly ignorant. Who cares what kind of camera a photographer uses to take a photograph? Analog, Digital, SLR, D-SLR ... they're all cameras, not so-called toys or gadgets. The tools a photographer chooses to use, do NOT make him/her any less a photographer than any other.

Much the same way that the tools any artist in general uses do not make him/her any less of an artist. Creative inspiration is completely independent from the tools used to express the end result.

I offer the following image up to your viewing ...

http://www.geocities.com/grimtwilight/3dgraphics/Museum.html

Does it matter that I created this image on my computer, and not by slaving away in front of a canvas with horse hair brushes? Does the fact that I used a completely digital medium make it any less a work of art? I hardly think so.

Nor does it matter that I take my photographs now with a digital camera. They're still photographs ... I'm still a photographer, however novice I may be. If the judges in some competition are to disqualify yours or any other photographers pictures just because of the tools you used to capture them, and bring them to a printed medium ... well, then I think they need to reevaluate whom they put on their judging panels.
 
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