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Situation Advice Wanted: Client Not Paying - what do you do?

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I'm not sure what atage of this situation you are at, but one suggestion I would make;

If your still talking to the party in question in a friendly manner, make an appointment to visit them, show them (On your computer) the wedding presentation of the work you did, and as you finish up (keep this part of the meeting very much about them and the excitement about their special day). After this part of the meeting, tell them very politely that your frustrated that you feel at odds with them over the financial situation of this assignment and that you want both parties to feel good about the outcome of their wedding album or photos. If your paying attention to them, you should get a feel for what their feelings are and if they are going to make things right. (or they will just say what's going on and you'll feel they are honest) If this meeting ends with no next steps that you are satisfied with escalate to a nasty letter or whatever you feel is appropriate.

If you think it will help, explain to them that you make a living hour by hour and you can't add another wedding to that lost weekend to make up for your loss in that effort, nor can you invent another week before years end to make up for that lost weekend.

Juat another opinion, I know that this type of situation is very difficult and many of us are un-prepared because most people are honest.
 
Oak and Acorn said:
Todd Avery said:
and I usually get the other 50% the day of the wedding AFTER I shoot
before I give them anything.

That way I have the images as leverage. Keep in mind, these people
have seen NOTHING yet.
Click to expand...
Okay, I'm confused here.

In your original post, you stated that this particular wedding couple
HAS NOT paid you anything (prehaps they've paid you 50% upfront, as
you've indicated in this thread), BUT, presumably they have not paid
you IN FULL so far, months after the wedding. Am I close?

Okay. My confusion arises from the fact that you state here that
your normal routine is for you to get 50% UPFRONT and then you get
the "other" 50% for your services from the couple on the day of the
wedding - correct? So, what happened to this routine? Where did
this procedure break down that caused you to end up not being FULLY
paid for your work BEFORE so many months have passed since the
wedding? And, WHY would you CONTINUE to provide your services, for
so many months afterwards, by going a head and "hand" processing the
images when you STILL have not been paid in full? How does having
the "images as leverage" help you at all if this is how you handled
getting paid in this instance?

I mean, that IS what you're most concerned with, correct? That you
may very well not get paid for having spent so much time "hand"
processing each individual image after the fact? What possessed you
to keep working on these images when you had not been paid in full to
begin with? Charity?

Look, I feel that you most certainly have every right to be paid for
your hard work. Obviously, you care very much about your client's
satisfaction.

However, if you don't get paid for the extensive work you've done on
the wedding couple's images, since the wedding was over, and you
aren't willing to take this wedding couple to court over the whole
issue (if they keep putting you off, etc...), then quite frankly,
it's your own fault for having invested so much of your valuable time
when you knew that you hadn't been paid in full from the very
beginning.

Examine your contract, make sure all your t's are crossed, and your
i's are dotted, consult a lawyer and then take it from there if you
feel you have a good enough case to pursue further legal action (if
it's that important to you).

Otherwise, sounds to me like you've screwed yourself over, where your
lossed time is concerned, and NO ONE on here is going to be able to
help you with that, either in this case, or in future instances.
There may be members on here, who've had similar experiences, and
might be able to offer some meager suggestions, sure. But, consider
this a valuable learning experience, and NEXT time, don't be so
"charitable" with your valuable time until AFTER you've been paid
in-full. ;)

Good luck to you!
Click to expand...
I usually collect a check at the end of the night. I BUST MY ASS, and I receive tips more often than not. These weren't friends, but referrals from GOOD friends. Unfortunately, at the end of the night, there was no check. CALL me tomorrow was what I got. No answer the next day, followed by "we are in Vegas" for our honeymoon the following day.

Upon return, a 15 minute sob story... lost their butts in Vegas is what I think happened.

Yes, I did get 50% upfront. Even with the sob story, I figured they would pay and I wanted to be in a situation of being able to deliver the images IMMEDIATELY after being paid. Isn't that the professional way to proceed? I signed a contract, I finished my work, end of story. I couldn't imagine someone wouldn't eventually pay for the rest of the work and get their images. It's a first for me, thus the post.

It takes me a week to process a typical wedding so I don't understand what you mean about still working months after.

Anyhow, it sucks... I suppose I could change the payment to before I start shooting, but then a tip seems less likely. Perhaps I shouldn't be so "greedy" as another poster suggested.

Thanks for all the input, it's helping me sort out what I want to do.
 
You are totally right, when it comes to work I'm done bending the rules. I'm definitely not angry, more disappointed as MOST of my couples are anxious to pay and calling ME everyday to see images.

They will either come around eventually, or they won't.

Thanks for posting.
 
If you're okay without the money, meaning you're not in financial problems, I'd just keep the images and stop wasting time on this matter. Send them a few communications and bills, make them clear that pictures may be deleted due to breach of contract (I suggest that you don't indicate a fee for getting the pictures later, it's not in the contract anyway and is debatable).

If they don't have the money, it's really difficult to get payed and you'll mostry only get stress and frustration in return. Also, as you mentioned, they will probably talk bad about you just because you took them to court.

See this as a lesson. I'm pretty sure that you will be more strict with payment in coming weddings. I'm also pretty sure this won't be your last experience of this kind.
 
EDIT: Just realized this was already posted. Anyways. Pardon my not reading the previous page . .

----

Quick FYI - change your contract so that 50% of the deposit is payed upon 'securing' the date, and the balance 30 days prior to the event (or 14 - gives you enough room to make sure no cheques bounce). If you're uncomfortable with this, 50% on securing the date, and then 25% prior to post, and the remainder on delivery.

In future, do NOT touch your images until you've been paid.

Um.

As to what to do in your current predicament..

Hm.

I know one wedding photographer sent his client cut up negatives and broken CDs.. but I think the client's sued him for tens of thousands for emotional trauma.

Maybe not the best route.

I think after a few written invoices you can speak to the credit association.

Then they might pay a little more attention.
Todd Avery said:
80% of my paid work are weddings. I'm expensive, but I hand touch
every image I take... it's more art than "photography". Anyhow, not
important.

What do you do when clients are in breech of contract?

I haven't given them any photos, but they haven't paid. My contract
is rather straight forward about payment schedule and delivery of
images. It's normal that it takes people a few weeks, even a month or
two sometimes to pay. BUT, what do you do when it's been months? I
spent a full week on their images and don't get paid for that week
until they decide to pay. It just irritates me like crazy.

I've made a few VERY polite calls, and get 15minute stories with more
holes than swiss cheese, promises of "payment plan"... and then two
more months go by with no contact.

Do you sue? Due you just put the images away and wait for them to
call someday? When they do show up, do you then charge em storage
fees and be a jerk about it?

I've got a few I'd like to be a jerk to, but SO much of my work is
referral business.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
--

 
Todd:

I just saw this thread, so late response.

If you were in California I would help you directly. It is my understanding you are in Texas, but your profile says Newport Beach, CA. Do you have an attorney's fee clause in your contract?

You have an opportunity to go different ways. Either enforce the contract, or rescind the contract. Of course, if you rescind you will have to return any money you have already received. But, it could be a leverage to get more money out of them if they really want the wedding pictures. Was there someone else taking pictures at their wedding?

On the other hand, if you enforce the contract you would be requesting the court for specific performance. In other words, having the court order them to pay you upon your performance of providing them the pictures called for under the contract. If you have already performed this and are ready to deliver, then this is not a problem.

However, there may be a problem with small claims. Small claims does not have jurisdiction over both rescission and specific performance, which are equitable requests. They do over breach of contract and you may be able to sell this to a small claims "judge," especially if you have done all of your part of the contract.

It is hard to know your best course without seeing your contract and knowing more of the facts. I have represented a photographer in your situation and surprisingly a letter did the trick (normally they don't). The main thing you need to know is if the pictures are important to them. They may have a belief that they can call you at any time and say, "we want our pictures now" and have the money called for under the contract. The thing that got the clients of this other photographer was the threat the negatives (he shot film) were going to disappear in the near future if money was not forthcoming.

Anyway, I hope you find some relief in this situation. I have been there. Not all clients pay their attorney.

Ray
 
Todd Avery said:
Yes, I did get 50% upfront. Even with the sob story, I figured they
would pay and I wanted to be in a situation of being able to deliver
the images IMMEDIATELY after being paid. Isn't that the professional
way to proceed? I signed a contract, I finished my work, end of
story. I couldn't imagine someone wouldn't eventually pay for the
rest of the work and get their images. It's a first for me, thus the
post.
Click to expand...
I don't work weddings so take that into account here...

It seems to me you have the payment plan correct but your contract doesn't state what each part is for. It should be 50% to come to take the pictures and 50% to start working on processing and printing them. Delivery is based on when the payment is made and would be several months in the future if you have prints made. Less if you give them jpegs. It should state that delivery of the images would need to be renegotiated if the final payment isn't provided with in a certain period of time.

In this case, you would have been paid to show up and shoot. Since you didn't get any additional funds, you would have shelved the images until you got the payment to work on them. That I feel is your mistake along with the wording in the contract. Had you done this, you would have gotten paid to shoot and you'd be willing to sit on the images until they decided to pay for you to process them.

I think you are most upset because you did the work since you didn't want to be in breach of contract and you haven't been paid for it. Again, I think it is the contract that you use that needs to be adjusted. There is no reason to work images until paid and they should be waiting for delivery of the images rather than you having them and waiting on payment from them.

--
Tony

http://www.pbase.com/a5m/ http://AnthonyMedici.naturescapes.net/
 
100% before shooting the wedding. Too many deadbeats. Think about it — try to book a vacation by only paying 50% down and paying the remainder when you get back after they prove that they can deliver on their contracted promise to fulfill specific expectations, including flying you home.

Hmm...didn't think so.

If a wedding client believes you haven't fulfilled your contractual obligations, they can try to negotiate or even sue.

My suggestion would be get the balance 1-2 weeks in advance. If no money is forthcoming, I would personally still shoot the wedding (and archive the images) but others might walk if they believed the negative word of mouth wouldn't kill them.
 
I don't know if this is applicable in the US, but in Belgium if a clients pays part of the invoice, he basically accepts that the work has been done. Thus if you can agree that your client pays already part of the invoice, it will make the work of an attorney much easier, would the client not pay the rest. Of course if a client pays part of the invoice and contests the whole work has been done, and only paying for the part that has been done, it is not applicable.
 
I read a few post . . . but simply am pressed for time to read all. It is more than likely that someone posted similar 9to my) response.
Todd Avery said:
80% of my paid work are weddings.
What do you do when clients are in breech of contract?
[snip]
I haven't given them any photos, but they haven't paid. My contract
is rather straight forward about payment schedule and delivery of images.
Click to expand...
"Straight forward" payment scehule does not tell me anything.

When I used to do weddings, I get 25% of the contract fee or (about $250 in today's $) up-front. My client get the proof (contact sheet) within a week). They have two weeks to select the agreed upon number of pictures for the album, with payment for the 50% of the balance. When the check clears, I start on the album. The balance is payable at the delivery of the finish album. Depending on the client, the final payment maybe cash (certified or cashier's check) or a personal check.
Todd Avery said:
Do you sue? Do you just put the images away and wait for them to call someday?
When they do show up, do you then charge em storage fees and be a jerk about it?
Click to expand...
The payment schedule obviates my having to sue a client, ever.

I may not make money but at least I break even. In today's digital world, 700 meg storage is only a $0.50 CD.
Todd Avery said:
I've got a few I'd like to be a jerk to, but SO much of my work is referral business.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Don't do business with friends and relatives. Run your photography business as a business but don't be petty.

--
ecube
 
Whatever you do - do not sue the customer or take them to small claims court. This one thing can ruin your reputation through word of mouth from the disgruntled customer - even if what they say to people is untrue.

I agree with the previous poster - take your losses. Sometimes you lose in business and this is one of those cases. Live and learn.

You might consider modifying your contract to take more money up-front - say 75%, and the rest on delivery. That way customers feel a bit more comfortable about paying up-front for something they have not seen yet. If a customer flakes out, you have 75% of your fee.

I suspect this couple just ran out of money and will eventually pay you as i'm sure they want their photos.

Just my opinion.
 
I'm sure there's some banking execs that would agree with you and they're laughing their asses off swimming in a pool full of your money as we speak. It's not a question of being greedy, it's a question of a contract being a contract.
 
Todd:

Sorry, I thought you were the Todd in Texas. Apparently, you are not. I enjoyed your web pages.

There are options besides suing. In the example I gave above the photographer actually got a referral from the people he threatened to sue.

Ray
 
I am sure all of them got paid based on their employment contract...and yet people whine and complain about it.

It isn't always what is in the contract, it is what about what is right.

Way too much greed on this forum and not thinking about what is right.
simalicrum said:
It's not a question of being greedy, it's a
question of a contract being a contract.
Click to expand...
--
Certified Professional Master Photographer, Level 3.
Certified Expert on 30 D and on Zoom L Lenses
Working on L Prime Certification
 
I don;t shoot em? Now you're a mind reader too? ;-)

Anyway, your point is just as valid as mine... there ARE good reasons for a hard line and the lack of grasp is yours not mine... good luck being soft with your clients.

i do fine being hard with mine and it always pays off well for me in the end.

We forgot about WWI in WWII and we will forget 9/11 and it will happen again... my point is that taking a hard line with a deadbeat will never last long in the minds of ""new" customers which will surely come and surely not have a clue about my past business history.

I looked at your website and saw no weddings either ;-)

Fine images however!!
--
Manny
http://www.pbase.com/gonzalu/
http://www.mannyphoto.com/
FCAS Member - http://fcasmembers.com/
 
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