Nikon MX, my way...

48x72 is 4 times the size of the D3's chip. That's 7.2cmx4.8cm,
certainly is larger than 645.
Joe actually said it was roughly the size of 6x7. And when Joe says
twice the size I'm fully confident in assuming he means twice as
large in each direction.
Exactly. A tradition going back decades. In film, "size" refers to linear dimensions: the movie films 8mm, 16mm, 35mm, 70mm. We even do area in terms of linear dimensions: 24x36, 6x7, etc. Like shoe size, waist size, inseam...

And, just to make sure there was no confusing, I spelled out dimensions for both variations.

I have to admit one thing, I'm not called "dude" every day. ;)

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
I agree they can work but it's a lot of mechanism to put into a relatively small box. Without enough room inside the box, it'll be tough to build a robust mechanism.

I hear what you're saying about convenience but I doubt most people would want to use the small format lenses for long anyway. I bet most people who bought an FX camera only use DX lenses until they can afford a replacement.
 
You can say it either way. Nikon entered the market with D1, a heavy
machine with flagship F5 level focusing and body. Canon followed with
D30 (as opposed to 30D), lowest possible cost for maximum
"approachability". Blow for blow, they've never really tried to
parallel each other. I'd call this different "philosophies", rather
than any "aversion".
Actually, it's your ROI point. For Nikon, who at the time had only a small pro share, the D1 was the right call for shaking up the market again and getting a good ROI while doing so. For Canon, who did have a strong film pro share still active, the 30D was the right call for getting into the digital game and generating good ROI on top of what they already were doing. Both companies simply made the right initial call for ROI from their current position. Once it became clear to Canon that the D1 had changed the pro PJ game, the 1D was the correct response.

In this long cat and mouse game, the only really bad play was the D2h.
If Nikon simply put an Alpha sensor in a D700 class body, it would be
"clearly a better camera" than A900, in two important ways.

It would have liveview.
Actually, do we know that the 24mp sensor supports live view? You really don't want to frame grab all 24mp, so you need some sub-sampling method built in.
I'd like to see Nikon leapfrog Canon (as Canon did to Nikon) in the
performance of the movie mode.
I'm not exactly sure how you do that. Once you get to 1080P the only other real logical move to make would be to offer 24/30/60 fps and some sort of real time compressor. I'd really hate to see still camera engineers put cycles into those things, though.
(which seems a reasonable possibility)then MX is the only reasonable
route to a next generation 1Ds type camera. A Nikon lineup including
the D800 and the MX camera would differentiate them sufficiently from
Canon and others.
Definitely.
I still say that if MF is on Nikon's plate, they must also have a D800 AND a D3x body. A play at the top says that you intend to cover the full range of cameras (since Nikon already makes things at about the lowest possible level in the low-end Coolpix models). Doing so makes you vulnerable if you have gaps. Right now Nikon has two gaps and several weak spots. The gaps are in performance compact and high resolution DSLR. And Nikon now has competitors targeting both of those gaps.
Can even a game-changing camera generate that kind of sales
at that price?
Really, really good question.
Yep, even if I say so myself ; ). This is, of course, the ROI question again. Nikon's now in a tricky spot. As growth comes off the camera market in all areas, everyone needs to find something that will generate growth, and that points to something new (micro 4/3, MF DSLR, etc.). Yet at the same time, the companies must be careful to protect what they've gained. Nikon just upped their R&D budget again, so it will be interesting to see where it comes to fruition. But I'd say an 8% compact share, a missing high-end compact, long-in-the-tooth consumer DSLRs, and a missing high-resolution DSLR should be the first targets. In terms of ROI: #1 high-resolution DSLR, #2 high-end compact, #3 consumer DSLRs, #4 better compacts. In my opinion, a MF camera would slot between #3 and #4.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (19 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
Nikon just upped their R&D budget again,
so it will be interesting to see where it comes to fruition.
What about lenses? It seems nikon needs to do more designs/redesigns, and also be able to meet demand. A high-res FX body isn't going to help this cause--it will make existing designs' deficiencies more obvious, not less. And what about MX? Would that lens design and production have to share the same resources and production with FX/DX?

Perhaps with all the 16/18-xx DX designs out there nikon can spend some time working on FX lenses. But it seems that all this talk of bodies inevitably leads back to lenses, and that makes me nervous for Nikon's sake.
 
If Nikon really, REALLY wants to go for a performance compact, they'll make one with an oversize (by compact standards) sensor - probably DX, because that's what they have around. A 12 mp DX compact could go three ways on lens selection.

1.) Sigma DP1 - fixed wide-angle prime lens (possibly a couple of variants of the camera depending on HOW wide).

2.) Contax T-VS - fixed short-ratio zoom lens (maybe a fairly slow, but beautiful, 18-55 actual, giving a 35mm equivalent of 28-80 or so)

3.) Contax G1 - interchangeable lenses (not SLR nikkors, but much smaller, lighter lenses made for the camera).
 
You can say it either way. Nikon entered the market with D1, a heavy
machine with flagship F5 level focusing and body. Canon followed with
D30 (as opposed to 30D), lowest possible cost for maximum
"approachability". Blow for blow, they've never really tried to
parallel each other. I'd call this different "philosophies", rather
than any "aversion".
Actually, it's your ROI point. For Nikon, who at the time had only a
small pro share, the D1 was the right call for shaking up the market
again and getting a good ROI while doing so. For Canon, who did have
a strong film pro share still active, the 30D was the right call for
getting into the digital game and generating good ROI on top of what
they already were doing. Both companies simply made the right initial
call for ROI from their current position.
Quite possibly. Although, with things like the Fujix, Nikon may have been already used to playing in the $15,000 game, so the whole "cut the price in half, improve the performance, and improve the handling" thing also worked pretty well.

That's also part of what makes me think Nikon could deal a pretty solid blow to the existing MF back adn body companies, if they chose. They remind me so much of the way things were in 1998, Kodak with backs on Nikon and Canon bodies, Fuji with Nikon, Agfa with Minolta. D1 simply ended that market, and took 100% of the business from the 35mm back vendors.
Once it became clear to
Canon that the D1 had changed the pro PJ game, the 1D was the correct
response.
Yup.
In this long cat and mouse game, the only really bad play was the D2h.
I still consider 5D to be a pretty poor move.
If Nikon simply put an Alpha sensor in a D700 class body, it would be
"clearly a better camera" than A900, in two important ways.

It would have liveview.
Actually, do we know that the 24mp sensor supports live view? You
really don't want to frame grab all 24mp, so you need some
sub-sampling method built in.
It looks like it does. I wish the data sheets I had were in English...
I'd like to see Nikon leapfrog Canon (as Canon did to Nikon) in the
performance of the movie mode.
I'm not exactly sure how you do that. Once you get to 1080P the only
other real logical move to make would be to offer 24/30/60 fps and
some sort of real time compressor.
You're not tackling the problem from the right direction...

Not resolution and video rate: for resolution and low light ability, the new movie mode DSLRs eat even high end pro video gear for lunch. But they still handle like DSRs with a movie mode "tacked on".

First, and most obvious, improve the CD AF (heck, D90 can't even do AF during movie mode).

Then, don't change anything on the DSLR controls, but do make it easier to supplement those controls. How much effort would it take to add protocol so that you could run a lot of the camera's functions easily through the USB port, so that they could hook up a grip that would make it handle more like a serious video camera.
I'd really hate to see still
camera engineers put cycles into those things, though.
It only uses cycles if you actually engage those modes. I can't see anything on D90 or 5D II that appears to have been in any way
(which seems a reasonable possibility)then MX is the only reasonable
route to a next generation 1Ds type camera. A Nikon lineup including
the D800 and the MX camera would differentiate them sufficiently from
Canon and others.
Definitely.
I still say that if MF is on Nikon's plate, they must also have a
D800 AND a D3x body.
Agreed.
A play at the top says that you intend to cover
the full range of cameras (since Nikon already makes things at about
the lowest possible level in the low-end Coolpix models). Doing so
makes you vulnerable if you have gaps.
Agreed?
Right now Nikon has two gaps
and several weak spots. The gaps are in performance compact and high
resolution DSLR. And Nikon now has competitors targeting both of
those gaps.
Yup.
Can even a game-changing camera generate that kind of sales
at that price?
Really, really good question.
Yep, even if I say so myself ; ). This is, of course, the ROI
question again. Nikon's now in a tricky spot. As growth comes off the
camera market in all areas, everyone needs to find something that
will generate growth, and that points to something new (micro 4/3, MF
DSLR, etc.). Yet at the same time, the companies must be careful to
protect what they've gained. Nikon just upped their R&D budget again,
so it will be interesting to see where it comes to fruition. But I'd
say an 8% compact share, a missing high-end compact,
long-in-the-tooth consumer DSLRs, and a missing high-resolution DSLR
should be the first targets. In terms of ROI: #1 high-resolution
DSLR, #2 high-end compact, #3 consumer DSLRs, #4 better compacts. In
my opinion, a MF camera would slot between #3 and #4.
Not disputing any of that. Well, maybe that I'm not even sure the MF goes between #3 and #4. It might be #5

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
You're not tackling the problem from the right direction...

Not resolution and video rate: for resolution and low light ability,
the new movie mode DSLRs eat even high end pro video gear for lunch.
But they still handle like DSRs with a movie mode "tacked on".

First, and most obvious, improve the CD AF (heck, D90 can't even do
AF during movie mode).

Then, don't change anything on the DSLR controls, but do make it
easier to supplement those controls. How much effort would it take to
add protocol so that you could run a lot of the camera's functions
easily through the USB port, so that they could hook up a grip that
would make it handle more like a serious video camera.
Hmmmm ... where have I heard that before? You forgot to mention the motorized zoom lens as well. Panasonic seems to have a good handle on CD AF, so that seems like a very crackable nut. Also, just have the USB port integral to the grip so it is engaged when the grip is installed. Make sure the grip or camera body has firewire.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
Thom's mention of Nikon probably wanting an annual volume of 100,000
units to do an MX camera makes me wonder if it's feasible. The entire
medium format digital market is closer to 10,000 units/year, and the
best estimates I've seen of 1Ds mk III sales are more like 30,000
units/year. If Nikon wants 100,000, they're going to have to get some
of them out of the top end of the 5D mk II/Alpha 900 market, and I
just don't know if that's feasible with a $8000 - $10,000 camera
(there were that many people who shot MF film, even excluding Holga
shooters,, so the applications are there, but will the price be too
high?). Can even a game-changing camera generate that kind of sales
at that price?
Really, really good question.
This may be one point where Nikon is willing to take a risk? Nobody knows for sure the market potentials of relatively inexpensive, well-handling, good high-ISO MF. But we may assume Nikon knows very well the possibilities and limitations of the 24x36 format. And after they have, in a sense, completed their FX lineup with 24MP bodies, then what next? The pressure to continue the MP race on that format will surely be there, but how great will it be?

The situation for Nikon may be that if they don't go there, someone else surely will. And, in the long run, those who get a good position there are likely to make some money. Those who don't, will not. It may boil down to a question of expected grand long-time return - where the beneficial effects of having a strong position among pros also counts, as do the effects of having more models to share some of the basic development costs.

I have a somewhat wild imagination, that the Nikon engineers were playing around with the possibilities you get with a 54x54mm version of the D3 sensor, in a modular body where you could later, at a more moderate cost, double the resolution with a similar version of the "D3X" sensor. That would be a game-changing camera indeed. And I think they may have convinced the executives that if Nikon is to enter into that market segment, they better do it now. Just too bad that they didn't enroll you on the team, Joseph. Or did they? ;-)
 
is perhaps not doomed, if it becomes more of a direct 35mm replacement, not reall MF

Looking at the S2 from Leica, it isn't really bigger than Canon 1D or Nikon D3 rigs. Even the lenses look to roughly match up, size wize, with 35mm lenses of equivalent aperture and field of view.

We know that 35mm emerged as the most convenient format that could be built out of existing film stock. It persisted for decades because it was convenient to utlize existing film, and at times bodies or lenses, or systems.

Sensors could come in any size, so if you're choosing a new format, maybe the consideration is the largest size that can give you the handling of 35mm FF digital -- by far the most numerous "large frame" digital option after APSC.

Something wedding photographers will buy, particularly if the price doesn't much surpass the high end 35mm bodies, $5-8K. Initially, it most certainly would, but something that settles down in the sub 10K territory?
 
That's also part of what makes me think Nikon could deal a pretty
solid blow to the existing MF back adn body companies, if they chose.
Well, it's the operative question of the moment. Here's the thing: of the "major" camera companies, Nikon is the only one who relies upon consumer/pro imaging for more than half of their business. Thus, there's the question: are they a bottom-to-top camera company? I would argue that they need to be, which says that they have to do MF. If the brand=cameras, then they better have cameras of all kinds, and the best ones, at that.
I still consider 5D to be a pretty poor move.
No, it did what Canon needed done.
Not resolution and video rate: for resolution and low light ability,
the new movie mode DSLRs eat even high end pro video gear for lunch.
No they don't. Not in my testing.
First, and most obvious, improve the CD AF (heck, D90 can't even do
AF during movie mode).
I don't believe that the current designs (the lenses are an issue) would really allow that, and Nikon in particular has never proven that they can do a state-of-the-art contrast detection AF system. You simply can't add fast hunt focus and think this is going to be acceptable.

But there are other gating elements. The aperture activation arm has turned out to be one of the liabilities in Nikon's video mode. This is one reason why Nikon tries to use ISO to change exposure. Unfortunately, the camera designs would need more change, because the best case currently supports 1/6 stop changes, not continuous changes.
add protocol so that you could run a lot of the camera's functions
easily through the USB port, so that they could hook up a grip that
would make it handle more like a serious video camera.
Right. Nikon hasn't even published the protocol on the 10-pin port, so it seems out of character for them to suddenly put an open protocol on the USB port.
I'd really hate to see still
camera engineers put cycles into those things, though.
It only uses cycles if you actually engage those modes. I can't see
anything on D90 or 5D II that appears to have been in any way
I meant DESIGN cycles. I hate to see engineers spending time designing video instead of designing more and better still options.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (19 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
That's also part of what makes me think Nikon could deal a pretty
solid blow to the existing MF back adn body companies, if they chose.
Well, it's the operative question of the moment. Here's the thing: of the "major" camera companies, Nikon is the only one who relies upon consumer/pro imaging for more than half of their business. Thus, there's the question: are they a bottom-to-top camera company? I would argue that they need to be, which says that they have to do MF. If the brand=cameras, then they better have cameras of all kinds, and the best ones, at that.
I still consider 5D to be a pretty poor move.
No, it did what Canon needed done.
Not resolution and video rate: for resolution and low light ability,
the new movie mode DSLRs eat even high end pro video gear for lunch.
No they don't. Not in my testing.
First, and most obvious, improve the CD AF (heck, D90 can't even do
AF during movie mode).
I don't believe that the current designs (the lenses are an issue) would really allow that, and Nikon in particular has never proven that they can do a state-of-the-art contrast detection AF system. You simply can't add fast hunt focus and think this is going to be acceptable.

But there are other gating elements. The aperture activation arm has turned out to be one of the liabilities in Nikon's video mode. This is one reason why Nikon tries to use ISO to change exposure. Unfortunately, the camera designs would need more change, because the best case currently supports 1/6 stop changes, not continuous changes.
add protocol so that you could run a lot of the camera's functions
easily through the USB port, so that they could hook up a grip that
would make it handle more like a serious video camera.
Right. Nikon hasn't even published the protocol on the 10-pin port, so it seems out of character for them to suddenly put an open protocol on the USB port.
I'd really hate to see still
camera engineers put cycles into those things, though.
It only uses cycles if you actually engage those modes. I can't see
anything on D90 or 5D II that appears to have been in any way
I meant DESIGN cycles. I hate to see engineers spending time designing video instead of designing more and better still options.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (19 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
The situation for Nikon may be that if they don't go there, someone
else surely will.
Actually, someone already has: Leica. Fortunately for Nikon, it was Leica and not Canon. But this is my point. Nikon is a camera company. It's really the sole-remaining large scale camera company (the other major players are divisions of a much larger company). If your primary occupation is to make cameras, you'd better protect your role in that market, everywhere.

All this talk about mounts made me do a little critical thinking. There's an approach that hasn't been written about yet that would work for Nikon. Indeed, I've been doing a patent search to see if anyone has figured this one out ; ). So far, haven't found anything.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (19 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
All this talk about mounts made me do a little critical thinking.
There's an approach that hasn't been written about yet that would
work for Nikon. Indeed, I've been doing a patent search to see if
anyone has figured this one out ; ). So far, haven't found anything.
Buy into the contax brand?

--
  • Dax
daxballadares.com
 
I wish Nikon's primary occupation was to make lenses. I'm happy enough with my D700, I personally don't need a new camera body. Nikon would make more money from me if they provided the missing lenses I am waiting for, not a new body.

I do however appreciate that Nikon needs to have hi-res bodies, there are people who want/need them, plus it makes the brand look good when it can show that it has models to compete with the "best" cameras out there. I think there'd be many more people like me who have what they want/need in a camera body, and won't buy a new camera body for several years, but would buy any of several lenses today, if they were available today.

There's plenty of income Nikon could earn from introducing new lenses, I hope their focus isn't only on new bodies.
If your primary occupation is to make cameras, you'd better protect your role
in that market, everywhere.
--
Doug
 
All this talk about mounts made me do a little critical thinking.
There's an approach that hasn't been written about yet that would
work for Nikon. Indeed, I've been doing a patent search to see if
anyone has figured this one out ; ). So far, haven't found anything.
Have some sort of modular body, that allows you to:
  • Keep sensor the same, but interchange mount (and possibly even the mirror box?) to accommodate different lens mount sizes (say, a bigger than FX sensor that can work with "MX", FX, and DX lenses)
  • Keep lens mount the same, but interchange sensor to accommodate different pixel densities, and to allow the consumer to update the sensor without updating the entire body
  • Some combination of those two
To me, it seems like the first option would be easier to do. I'm not sure how easy it would be to switch an entire sensor "unit", or if you could even make such a "unit" that the consumer wouldn't break while handling it. I remember you mentioning that Nikon should come out with a modular system, to keep the consumer from having to buy what is essentially the same body just in order to upgrade a "smaller" component (such as the sensor, AF system, metering system, etc). I agree that such a move would be great for consumers. But what would it do to Nikon's profit margins on bodies?
 

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