D100 underexposure?

most pro level DSLR's
underexpose slightly when the meter reads spot on to prevent
burning highlights,
I would strongly contest this assertion. On what it is based? Every meter I've seen or tested (which is quite a few at this point), seems to be well within the ANSI standards (+ - 1/2 stop of 12% gray reflectance).

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com
 
Thanks, that's just what I saw, so I'll look for your post. Also,
see previous note about range of exposure compensation values -
should be -5 t0 +5, whereas mine extends only from -3 to +1. Does
your program have a similar glitch?
Uh, that sounds like the FLASH exposure compensation button. Are you sure you're using the right control?

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com
 
When I was doing some test shots in very bright sun of a light
colored object I got consistent severe under exposure. I was using
the center weighted metering and I haven't figured out what was
going on but sort of shoved it into the background.
Okay, two things you need to know about the center-weighted meter:

1. It uses a 60/40 split, not the 75/25 split that most other Nikons use.
2. The outer area sees outside the CCD framing area.

The net result is that I think center-weighted metering is unusable on a D100.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com
 
General question: Manual & Forum search don't yield any detailed
info on matrix metering. Apparently it tries to match exposure to
the dynamic range of the scene, somehow compensating ("3D") for
near-far differences. How does it actually work? What is the
general idea of the ten-area program of compensations?
As I note in detail in my books, the matrix meter looks at a lot of things, but the significance of the 10 segments is that the differences in brightness between the segments is more important than the actual values. The tactic the camera uses will depend most upon overall scene brightness and the differences in the matrix values.
More specific one: What is the meaning of the cryptic sentence
(manual p. 75) that "Matrix metering will not produce the desired
results with ... exposure compensation"? Does this mean simply
that EC shifts the exposure (duh), or that it somehow disables the
matrix program?
It means that, unless you know how the matrix is determining the exposure, using exposure compensation is likely to be a non-repeatable action. In other words, you go out to a baseball park and shoot and find that -1 EV works for you (probably based upon your interpretation of the histograms). You now go into the clubhouse. -1 EV is no longer going to work, as the overall scene brightness has changed dramatically and the camera may be using the matrix differently when figuring exposure. Now you might find -.5 or even +.5 is what maximizes the exposure range on the histogram. In short, there is no "magic" compensation number you can dial in if you use matrix metering.
Remaining problem: All of your advice is sound, & harks back to
the Zone System & its extensive testing. But the central problem
seems to remain: Center-weighted & spot-metered shots of a gray
card should not be underexposed.
Actually, by definition, they should be a 1/2 stop underexposed. The gray card is 18%. The camera meter is looking for 12%. If you think I'm nuts, go look at the article on my site about the 18% gray myth. You have Ansel Adams to thank for that "problem."

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com
 
Thanks so much for the wise advice, Thom - indeed I was hoping you'd reply & I'd get your authoritative opinion.

When you referred to Ansel Adams equating the 18% gray card with middle gray & the meter looking for 12%, I thought "of course," & went immediately to your website - but my browsing didn't locate the article you referred to.

What I'm concluding, making more test shots following your advice & others, is that matrix metering works remarkably well. I initially assumed that segmented metering would produce compromises I might not enjoy, & I could do better with spot metering & exposure compensation. But it seems from further test exposures that the matriax metering program is quite effective & I can adopt it as my default, checking histograms for exceptions.

If I'm going to use matrix metering regularly, I'd better try to understand it. I'm still curious about how the matrix program works (I'd consult your book, but am waiting for D100 version). I understand segmented metering in general. 10 is an odd number, so to speak - I'd expect 9 segments, but that's not an issue. Here are two more questions, if you have time:

1. I assume the matrix program just places the highlights so that they don't blow out - It can't actually extend/compress values, can it?

2. I also wonder about the "3D" feature of the matrix mode. Is this perhaps a compensation based on the assumption that in landscapes, areas at the top of the frame tend to give higher readings?

Thanks for your patience about all this stuff. You're doing a marvelous job of fielding questions about the D100, and I'm sure others appreciate it enormously too. Like many new D100 users, I'm accustomed to sophisticated analog cameras, but only to Coolpix-level digital ones. Perhaps while answering not-so-smart questions like mine & seeing where we get stuck, you can build up material for book revisions!

Kirk
 
Thanks Tom - that explains a few things for me - mighty helpful - how soon is your book coming out on the D100?

Glenn
When I was doing some test shots in very bright sun of a light
colored object I got consistent severe under exposure. I was using
the center weighted metering and I haven't figured out what was
going on but sort of shoved it into the background.
Okay, two things you need to know about the center-weighted meter:

1. It uses a 60/40 split, not the 75/25 split that most other
Nikons use.
2. The outer area sees outside the CCD framing area.

The net result is that I think center-weighted metering is unusable
on a D100.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com
 
most pro level DSLR's
underexpose slightly when the meter reads spot on to prevent
burning highlights,
I would strongly contest this assertion. On what it is based? Every
meter I've seen or tested (which is quite a few at this point),
seems to be well within the ANSI standards (+ - 1/2 stop of 12%
gray reflectance).


--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com
You got me there Thom, it's basically based on statements I've read from the forums. Many of the new D100 owners have complained about dark images also I remember the same thing happening with owners of the D1x and D1h, I can't explain that darkness anyway than a conservative exposure algorithm on the part of the camera involved. Of course, it could be yet again, the inexperience of the photogs. contributing to the problem. So, you are right there isn't any hard evidence behind the statement ..I should have clarified this fact when I made the statement.

Thanks for pointing this out.

Regards,

--

 
David,

Excellent response. Thanks for the information. I'm off to learn
more about exposure...:)

BTW, I know NC3 allows you to adjust EV. But you can't get back
what's not there to begin with. Too far left or right is gone
forever. I'm curious when (and if) you find that useful. Since
it's "after the fact" of capturing the image, what value is it?
You are right , if all you data is bunched up to one side or the other it can be unrecoverable, this is why it's so important to learn your cameras useful dynamic range. Play with various light levels, metering modes and compensation values to get a minds eye view of the settings needed for a given scene and subject composition. One thing that I have to get the habit of doing that many forget is recomposing after setting exposure lock, recomposing allows you in a sense to redistribute exposure in a scene to suit your needs. The best photographers of the past are considered great because many of them could do this in their heads! and before all this fancy metering technology existed. Film photographers that know the tendancies of the films they use tend to get images that match their vision. I shiver when I look at some Ansel Adams images and realize that had I been shooting the camera he used I probably would have gotten a dark or bright mess! The more you know the tendancies of your cameras ability to capture images under various shooting situations the less likely it's output will sadly suprise you..
Thanks,

Kevin R.
--

 
My D100 need about +.7 ev to get proper exposure in matrix in cloudy and evening light. Havent tried other modes or bright conditions. Same is true for flash I'm using +1 ev for flash with +0.7 ev for normal exposure (SB28x)
Let's see if others are having this issue in bright sun too.

-Pat
Has anyone else had trouble with underexposure in sunlight?
Metering is OK at low light levels, but I've experienced
underexposure of 1-2 stops in bright sun.

I noticed this when shooting RAW/NEF files at my preferred settings
with a Nikkor 20-35mm zoom. I then reset the camera to its default
settings & made gray-card test shots. I didn't have the info that
just appeared re: viewing histograms in camera, but viewed them in
Photoshop. They're skewed way to the left, & there isn't enough
shadow detail for Photoshop to handle the exposure error.

No, I wasn't using matrix metering - tried both centerweighted &
spot. Shot a CP5000 comparison & got normal exposure.

If the camera had lower ISO settings I'd compensate by setting to
50, but 200 is lowest. Exposure compensation of +1.0 deals with
about half the problem, but that's the highest setting.

Did I buy the one with the bad meter, or is this a common problem?

(BTW, don't bother calling Nikon Customer Service about stuff like
this - the rep knew almost nothing about the camera & thought I
might try adjusting the White Balance! She & her supervisor both
claimed the camera is too new to for them to know how to deal with
the problem. There's supposed to be 'Level 2' tech support, but
they couldn't reach it.)
--
http://allshopper.net
Photo open
--
Ken Eis
 
David & Thom,

Your're probably both right. But you speak of different matters. It is probably no ANSI or ISO standard for matrix metering or other evaluing metering of whole scenes. I too find the D100 as well as other DSLRs well within standards when metering an 18% (not 12) gray card. But "underexposure" in contrasty scenes is something completely different.

As we all know, Nikon's Matrix metering involves clever calculations based on scene contrast, object illumination and reflectance. To simplify, Matrix metering is almost like the Zone system implemented in an automatic, "intelligent" camera system.

David's notice that most pro DSLRs tend to "underexpose" is correct. But it is no underexposure, as the image file is not the finished file. All these cameras contain far more information than can be conveyed onto screen or paper, they expose contrasty scenes to avoid burned-out highlights but also keeps most or all tones in the shadows. What is needed is some way of boosting midtones in postprocessing.

For Nikon's cameras, this can be remedied by downloading a contrast curve into the camera from a computer. Thus, you may avoid washed highlights and enjoy bright midtones out of the camera. I prefer to do it on the computer, as the control in-camera is not up to my computer screen after all.

Toralf
most pro level DSLR's
underexpose slightly when the meter reads spot on to prevent
burning highlights,
I would strongly contest this assertion. On what it is based? Every
meter I've seen or tested (which is quite a few at this point),
seems to be well within the ANSI standards (+ - 1/2 stop of 12%
gray reflectance).


--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com
You got me there Thom, it's basically based on statements I've read
from the forums. Many of the new D100 owners have complained about
dark images also I remember the same thing happening with owners of
the D1x and D1h, I can't explain that darkness anyway than a
conservative exposure algorithm on the part of the camera involved.
Of course, it could be yet again, the inexperience of the photogs.
contributing to the problem. So, you are right there isn't any hard
evidence behind the statement ..I should have clarified this fact
when I made the statement.

Thanks for pointing this out.

Regards,

--

--
---
Toralf Sandåker, writer and consultant, Norway
 
my view this is a new camera exposure learning issue, the camera is slightly different in character to d1 series in its meter, I found that half a stop either way helps ie bright sun and you want to get facial detail +.5 bright sun and you want to maintain bright areas -.5. this is experience after years of using a Leica M6 with the most horrible way of metering I set exposure by pure instinct and that was rarely wrong with the lattitude of print flim, raw files have even more ev latittude than print film with bibble and d1x i can get great control + - 2 stops !
Has anyone else had trouble with underexposure in sunlight?
Metering is OK at low light levels, but I've experienced
underexposure of 1-2 stops in bright sun.

I noticed this when shooting RAW/NEF files at my preferred settings
with a Nikkor 20-35mm zoom. I then reset the camera to its default
settings & made gray-card test shots. I didn't have the info that
just appeared re: viewing histograms in camera, but viewed them in
Photoshop. They're skewed way to the left, & there isn't enough
shadow detail for Photoshop to handle the exposure error.

No, I wasn't using matrix metering - tried both centerweighted &
spot. Shot a CP5000 comparison & got normal exposure.

If the camera had lower ISO settings I'd compensate by setting to
50, but 200 is lowest. Exposure compensation of +1.0 deals with
about half the problem, but that's the highest setting.

Did I buy the one with the bad meter, or is this a common problem?

(BTW, don't bother calling Nikon Customer Service about stuff like
this - the rep knew almost nothing about the camera & thought I
might try adjusting the White Balance! She & her supervisor both
claimed the camera is too new to for them to know how to deal with
the problem. There's supposed to be 'Level 2' tech support, but
they couldn't reach it.)
 
I'm learning the same things, except that +.7 to +1.3 works best for me. I too am travelling from Leicaland to Nikon USA, and find the distance somewhat daunting - most of my problems have to do with unfamiliarity with the Nikon system.

Kirk
Has anyone else had trouble with underexposure in sunlight?
Metering is OK at low light levels, but I've experienced
underexposure of 1-2 stops in bright sun.

I noticed this when shooting RAW/NEF files at my preferred settings
with a Nikkor 20-35mm zoom. I then reset the camera to its default
settings & made gray-card test shots. I didn't have the info that
just appeared re: viewing histograms in camera, but viewed them in
Photoshop. They're skewed way to the left, & there isn't enough
shadow detail for Photoshop to handle the exposure error.

No, I wasn't using matrix metering - tried both centerweighted &
spot. Shot a CP5000 comparison & got normal exposure.

If the camera had lower ISO settings I'd compensate by setting to
50, but 200 is lowest. Exposure compensation of +1.0 deals with
about half the problem, but that's the highest setting.

Did I buy the one with the bad meter, or is this a common problem?

(BTW, don't bother calling Nikon Customer Service about stuff like
this - the rep knew almost nothing about the camera & thought I
might try adjusting the White Balance! She & her supervisor both
claimed the camera is too new to for them to know how to deal with
the problem. There's supposed to be 'Level 2' tech support, but
they couldn't reach it.)
 
I was reading the D100 manual today and noticed that when matrix metering is specified, the programmed mode EV value used is truncated at 17. I wonder if this could cause the overexposures in bright sunlight.
Has anyone else had trouble with underexposure in sunlight?
Metering is OK at low light levels, but I've experienced
underexposure of 1-2 stops in bright sun.

I noticed this when shooting RAW/NEF files at my preferred settings
with a Nikkor 20-35mm zoom. I then reset the camera to its default
settings & made gray-card test shots. I didn't have the info that
just appeared re: viewing histograms in camera, but viewed them in
Photoshop. They're skewed way to the left, & there isn't enough
shadow detail for Photoshop to handle the exposure error.

No, I wasn't using matrix metering - tried both centerweighted &
spot. Shot a CP5000 comparison & got normal exposure.

If the camera had lower ISO settings I'd compensate by setting to
50, but 200 is lowest. Exposure compensation of +1.0 deals with
about half the problem, but that's the highest setting.

Did I buy the one with the bad meter, or is this a common problem?

(BTW, don't bother calling Nikon Customer Service about stuff like
this - the rep knew almost nothing about the camera & thought I
might try adjusting the White Balance! She & her supervisor both
claimed the camera is too new to for them to know how to deal with
the problem. There's supposed to be 'Level 2' tech support, but
they couldn't reach it.)
 
I was reading the D100 manual today and noticed that when matrix
metering is specified, the programmed mode EV value used is
truncated at 17. I wonder if this could cause the overexposures in
bright sunlight.
Underexposures ???
Has anyone else had trouble with underexposure in sunlight?
Metering is OK at low light levels, but I've experienced
underexposure of 1-2 stops in bright sun.

I noticed this when shooting RAW/NEF files at my preferred settings
with a Nikkor 20-35mm zoom. I then reset the camera to its default
settings & made gray-card test shots. I didn't have the info that
just appeared re: viewing histograms in camera, but viewed them in
Photoshop. They're skewed way to the left, & there isn't enough
shadow detail for Photoshop to handle the exposure error.

No, I wasn't using matrix metering - tried both centerweighted &
spot. Shot a CP5000 comparison & got normal exposure.

If the camera had lower ISO settings I'd compensate by setting to
50, but 200 is lowest. Exposure compensation of +1.0 deals with
about half the problem, but that's the highest setting.

Did I buy the one with the bad meter, or is this a common problem?

(BTW, don't bother calling Nikon Customer Service about stuff like
this - the rep knew almost nothing about the camera & thought I
might try adjusting the White Balance! She & her supervisor both
claimed the camera is too new to for them to know how to deal with
the problem. There's supposed to be 'Level 2' tech support, but
they couldn't reach it.)
 

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