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Grey Market vs USA - it's the "increment" that counts.
- Thread starter Frank Patton
- Start date
Frank Patton
Leading Member
Sorry Mark,
Comment was for Greg. Got confused by the replications and didn't pay enough attention to my addressee. My apologies to Mark.
FP
Comment was for Greg. Got confused by the replications and didn't pay enough attention to my addressee. My apologies to Mark.
FP
You can argue until you are blue, but you cannot change the law.
Frank
Don't know how many ways that this can be said. Canon's warrantyI think what you wrote is reasonable and if folks want to save some
bucks there is a slight risk because the policy will change. I
think if it changes, it will be stated.. as of date xxxx we no
longer will honor grey market items for warranty. Thus, i think it
is likely there will be inclusion clause for folks who already
purchased but again you never know.
is an international warranty and not country specific.
Now this is just a bunch of bull. They would have to know whichThe other issue one should consider is if you are taking your stuff
in and out of the country. In theory, Custom agents are trained to
distinguish grey market from USA sold goods. If you buy a grey
item and do not have a copy of the purchase ticket, they can charge
you import taxes. There were several news articles on this topic
that I have posted the links to in the past. I doubt this will
happen often but one never knows.
serial numbers went to what countries.
We're talking Canon not Nikon.In general, if there is a good savings, I will buy grey Canon stuff
from time to time but I usually go with USA. Remember that
companies like Nikon, not only will not honor the warranty but will
not service grey items period.
Mark
Greg M
Senior Member
Canon Inc lists the sales and profit from their Americas operations on their balance sheet. There is no stock symbol for Canon USA, none that I could find. So I ask you agian, who owns Canon USA? Is it not Canon Inc (Japan)? If it is, then where do you think that the money ends up? I believe that it is the same for Canon Europe and so on.I work for an auto/motorcycle manufacturer from Japan. My wife
works as an attorney for an automaker from Korea.
If your comment below were about either of our two companies then
your comment below would be totally wrong, without foundation or
factual base. In fact, it is opposite from the truth. I have to
assume that Canon would be the same:
Your comment:
Canon still gets their money no matter where the item is purchased.
It all ends up in Japan anyways.
Where do you come up with these myths?
If I am right, could you please throw some water on your flame?
After all I've been flamed enough from Doctor Wacko, don't you think? That's Mark who has found it nessasery to also e-mail me at the same time to tell me just how wrong I am. Seems like his ego can't take someone disagreeing with him. He even made a point to make sure I knew that he was a Doctor and Head of Pediatrics and Genetics at Stanford where his loyal subjects refer to him as their fearless leader.
Greg M
Senior Member
Have you read the warranty? These sentences are from a US warranty card.Mark,
You are dead wrong. The only warranty anyone has is the written
warranty in their possession. If that warranty does not say USA
somewhere, or indicate that specfically, and I mean specifically,
then the bearer has nothing enforceable. Nothing.
We are back to the policy aspect of the discusson.
You can argue until you are blue, but you cannot change the law.
Frank
"This Limited International Warranty is only effective upon presentation of a bill of sale, warranty card or other proof of purchase."
"Equipment covered by this warranty will be repaired in other countries:"
Maybe someone else from outside the US could read their warranty card and see if it has similar language. I would assume that it does. It would be in line with Canon's corporate philosophy which you can find at their web site.
Lastly, I have been the only one to quote a source, except for Lee but he also takes the same position, to back up what I am saying. Canon will warranty anything they sell any where in the world. Could you please use something other then your opinion to give some validity to your statements? Lee has and I have.
Frank Patton
Leading Member
Greg,
You have as little knowledge of how US Distributors of foreign made product operate as you do of warranty situations. Your strong statements are without basis. Period.
Mark appears to be a very intelligent individual who bases his comments on facts.
FP
You have as little knowledge of how US Distributors of foreign made product operate as you do of warranty situations. Your strong statements are without basis. Period.
Mark appears to be a very intelligent individual who bases his comments on facts.
FP
Canon Inc lists the sales and profit from their Americas operationsI work for an auto/motorcycle manufacturer from Japan. My wife
works as an attorney for an automaker from Korea.
If your comment below were about either of our two companies then
your comment below would be totally wrong, without foundation or
factual base. In fact, it is opposite from the truth. I have to
assume that Canon would be the same:
Your comment:
Canon still gets their money no matter where the item is purchased.
It all ends up in Japan anyways.
Where do you come up with these myths?
on their balance sheet. There is no stock symbol for Canon USA,
none that I could find. So I ask you agian, who owns Canon USA?
Is it not Canon Inc (Japan)? If it is, then where do you think
that the money ends up? I believe that it is the same for Canon
Europe and so on.
If I am right, could you please throw some water on your flame?
After all I've been flamed enough from Doctor Wacko, don't you
think? That's Mark who has found it nessasery to also e-mail me at
the same time to tell me just how wrong I am. Seems like his ego
can't take someone disagreeing with him. He even made a point to
make sure I knew that he was a Doctor and Head of Pediatrics and
Genetics at Stanford where his loyal subjects refer to him as their
fearless leader.
Rune Moberg
Senior Member
D60 not only features video output, but you can also select between NTSC or PAL (middle part of the green menu section).don't think the d60 has a need to have different video outputs like
oly since i don't think it has that feature. thus its a universal
The only difference AFAIK is the power cord to the charger (same charger -- different cords).
--
Rune
Greg M
Senior Member
You have not put forth one fact in any post you have made. You have not presented anything to back your position, except your opinion. I have quoted from Canon's warranty card and asked direct questions and gotten no direct answers. This is obviously a waste of time since neither you or Mark are capable of presenting anything to back your position as it relates to Canon honoring their warranty for any and all of their products sold around the world. You won't even accept Lee's first hand conversations with Canon USA.Greg,
You have as little knowledge of how US Distributors of foreign made
product operate as you do of warranty situations. Your strong
statements are without basis. Period.
Mark appears to be a very intelligent individual who bases his
comments on facts.
FP
However, there are others that are on the fence about if they should consider buying Canon grey or USA. I believe that they will be able to see through the smoke and relize that there is no risk involved in buying any new Canon products. I say new because Canon's warranties are not transferable. None of them are dispite the misconception that the US warranties are transferable.
Offer some facts and use references. This would give some credibilty to your position. Do you think you can do this without flames?
mark kay
Veteran Member
My comments to you in the email were extremely polite and just clarifying that your statements were incorrect. My comments to you were only in regard to the issue of customs and clarifying that the customs agents have a right to charge tax or confiscate grey items if they so desire based on the law. You told me i was full of bull, and I supplied the evidence--then you claim it is only on cameras and not on lenses because they are not FCC regulated. Again, I showed you this was not true. You are asking everyone else to admit they were wrong but why can't you admit it. I have made mistakes here and I state that I stand corrected-why can't you. You even say if I am right, could you please throw water on the flame. Why cant you do the same thing regarding the issue of customs and FCC regulations you are clearly wrong. Honest mistakes are ok but the way you state them on here are very inflammatory.
If I am right, could you please throw some water on your flame?
After all I've been flamed enough from Doctor Wacko, don't you
think? That's Mark who has found it nessasery to also e-mail me at
the same time to tell me just how wrong I am. Seems like his ego
can't take someone disagreeing with him. He even made a point to
make sure I knew that he was a Doctor and Head of Pediatrics and
Genetics at Stanford where his loyal subjects refer to him as their
fearless leader.
Greg M
Senior Member
Prove me wrong and I will.
I still stand by what I said. The mark is FCC. Lenses do not have this mark. I have looked at both US and Grey versions. I have both. The cameras do carry a FCC mark. Mine is US and it has one. Lee has a Grey 1D so maybe he can look and see if his has one. I'll bet it does. My grey manuals state that the products meet FCC regulations. It only makes sense that Canon would make all of their lenses and cameras with it to make manufacturing and distribution easier. So it comes back to needing to know the serial numbers to know which is grey and which is not. The only difference in markings is if the grey cameras don't have the FCC mark. I've got a grey 550EX that does not have a FCC mark on it. If someone has a US 550EX look and see if it has FCC on it anywhere.
Back on subject though. Canon's warranties are international, even if they are area specific they also state that warranty work will be performed in other countries as well. This is what my warranty cards state.
Mark, I did say that you made some valid points. I was refering to the customs thing when I said that. In my post where I said that your statement was a bunch of bull I was refering to what you said and I am sorry if I came across as saying that you where full of bull. I can see where it could come across like that. Doctor wacko was out of line. I was dead wrong there.My comments to you in the email were extremely polite and just clarifying that your statements were incorrect. My comments to you were only in regard to the issue of customs and clarifying that the customs agents have a right to charge tax or confiscate grey items if they so desire based on the law. You told me i was full of bull, and I supplied the evidence--then you claim it is only on cameras and not on lenses because they are not FCC regulated. Again, I showed you this was not true. You are asking everyone else to admit they were wrong but why can't you admit it. I have made mistakes here and I state that I stand corrected-why can't you. You even say if I am right, could you please throw water on the flame. Why cant you do the same thing regarding the issue of customs and FCC regulations you are clearly wrong. Honest mistakes are ok but the way you state them on here are very inflammatory.
I still stand by what I said. The mark is FCC. Lenses do not have this mark. I have looked at both US and Grey versions. I have both. The cameras do carry a FCC mark. Mine is US and it has one. Lee has a Grey 1D so maybe he can look and see if his has one. I'll bet it does. My grey manuals state that the products meet FCC regulations. It only makes sense that Canon would make all of their lenses and cameras with it to make manufacturing and distribution easier. So it comes back to needing to know the serial numbers to know which is grey and which is not. The only difference in markings is if the grey cameras don't have the FCC mark. I've got a grey 550EX that does not have a FCC mark on it. If someone has a US 550EX look and see if it has FCC on it anywhere.
Back on subject though. Canon's warranties are international, even if they are area specific they also state that warranty work will be performed in other countries as well. This is what my warranty cards state.
Greg M
Senior Member
Does your 1D have the letters FCC on it anywhere?
It seems that unless the folks here see a written legal copy
composed by Canon's own legal department stating :
We at Canon Corporation would like to state plainly and
purposefully that WE as a corporation Do and WILL stand behind each
and every piece of merchandise our factories produce regardless of
importing country of origin.
While that might very well NOT happen, I'm not going to lose sleep
over the fact that if you call Canon U.S.A (and I have) and discuss
this matter, what I've stated above is pretty much exactly what
they told ME. If it makes you sleep any better, or give this absurd
argument up, go right ahead and give them a call for
yourself......At least then you'll be closer to believing it.
Needless to say This is the Internet and many of you wont' believe
it NO MATTER WHAT. So go and buy from whomever turns you one and
takes care of you and GO OUT AND SHOOT SOME PICTURES....
mark kay
Veteran Member
Read your lens manual and see that Lenses are subject to FCC approval. Take back you statement that the customs issue are bull because they cannot figure things out based on serial numbers. As the article stated it is not serial numbers they look at. I think the fact that the lens manuals state FCC compliance is proof enough. mark
Mark, I did say that you made some valid points. I was refering toMy comments to you in the email were extremely polite and just clarifying that your statements were incorrect. My comments to you were only in regard to the issue of customs and clarifying that the customs agents have a right to charge tax or confiscate grey items if they so desire based on the law. You told me i was full of bull, and I supplied the evidence--then you claim it is only on cameras and not on lenses because they are not FCC regulated. Again, I showed you this was not true. You are asking everyone else to admit they were wrong but why can't you admit it. I have made mistakes here and I state that I stand corrected-why can't you. You even say if I am right, could you please throw water on the flame. Why cant you do the same thing regarding the issue of customs and FCC regulations you are clearly wrong. Honest mistakes are ok but the way you state them on here are very inflammatory.
the customs thing when I said that. In my post where I said that
your statement was a bunch of bull I was refering to what you said
and I am sorry if I came across as saying that you where full of
bull. I can see where it could come across like that. Doctor
wacko was out of line. I was dead wrong there.
I still stand by what I said. The mark is FCC. Lenses do not have
this mark. I have looked at both US and Grey versions. I have
both. The cameras do carry a FCC mark. Mine is US and it has one.
Lee has a Grey 1D so maybe he can look and see if his has one.
I'll bet it does. My grey manuals state that the products meet FCC
regulations. It only makes sense that Canon would make all of
their lenses and cameras with it to make manufacturing and
distribution easier. So it comes back to needing to know the
serial numbers to know which is grey and which is not. The only
difference in markings is if the grey cameras don't have the FCC
mark. I've got a grey 550EX that does not have a FCC mark on it.
If someone has a US 550EX look and see if it has FCC on it anywhere.
Back on subject though. Canon's warranties are international, even
if they are area specific they also state that warranty work will
be performed in other countries as well. This is what my warranty
cards state.
L
Lee Rothman
Guest
and mine is as Grey as they come. LOL. It says "This product has been designed and tested to comply with ALL FCC rules and regulations". on the plackard on the bottom of the camera where the serial number is....
It seems that unless the folks here see a written legal copy
composed by Canon's own legal department stating :
We at Canon Corporation would like to state plainly and
purposefully that WE as a corporation Do and WILL stand behind each
and every piece of merchandise our factories produce regardless of
importing country of origin.
While that might very well NOT happen, I'm not going to lose sleep
over the fact that if you call Canon U.S.A (and I have) and discuss
this matter, what I've stated above is pretty much exactly what
they told ME. If it makes you sleep any better, or give this absurd
argument up, go right ahead and give them a call for
yourself......At least then you'll be closer to believing it.
Needless to say This is the Internet and many of you wont' believe
it NO MATTER WHAT. So go and buy from whomever turns you one and
takes care of you and GO OUT AND SHOOT SOME PICTURES....
Mark already did,your moron.Can't you see you are wrong?Or you are SO stupid that you can't see that??Prove me wrong and I will.
BobBee.
Greg M
Senior Member
I thought it would. Thanks for checking Lee.
It seems that unless the folks here see a written legal copy
composed by Canon's own legal department stating :
We at Canon Corporation would like to state plainly and
purposefully that WE as a corporation Do and WILL stand behind each
and every piece of merchandise our factories produce regardless of
importing country of origin.
While that might very well NOT happen, I'm not going to lose sleep
over the fact that if you call Canon U.S.A (and I have) and discuss
this matter, what I've stated above is pretty much exactly what
they told ME. If it makes you sleep any better, or give this absurd
argument up, go right ahead and give them a call for
yourself......At least then you'll be closer to believing it.
Needless to say This is the Internet and many of you wont' believe
it NO MATTER WHAT. So go and buy from whomever turns you one and
takes care of you and GO OUT AND SHOOT SOME PICTURES....
Rune Moberg
Senior Member
That sounds iffy at best.in and out of the country. In theory, Custom agents are trained to
distinguish grey market from USA sold goods. If you buy a grey
item and do not have a copy of the purchase ticket, they can charge
Then again, I don't know anything about US customs.
Here in Norway, there's a limit of roughly $800 before you have to pay VAT on merchandise purchased abroad. If you bring with you expensive equipment, you're supposed to fill in a form before leaving the country and get it authorised. This form contains the serial number of the item in question and some other information. When I went abroad in May with my brand new D60, the customs officer told me that they very rarely bother checking camera equipment, but if I felt strongly about it then she'd issue a form for me nonetheless.
In theory the D60 I showed her could've been a D60 that I had brought with me on a previous journey (I've never been stopped by customs officers). She performed no background checks nor recorded my serial number.
I'd be very surprised if US customs have managed to come up with an even more elaborate scheme than that. I suspect they handle more traffic than Norwegian customs...
--
Rune
Greg M
Senior Member
A custom agent can not tell the difference between a Canon grey lens and a Canon US lens. There are no FCC makings on either the grey or US. They can not tell the difference between a Canon grey camera and a Canon US camera. Both the grey Canon camera and a US Canon camera have the FCC mark on them.
This is for the cheap seats:
The change is that the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) has apparently convinced the U.S. Customs Service to begin vigorously enforcing FCC compliance on all imported products. This means that any imported products may be impounded by Customs if they don't carry the required FCC indicia (A special logo or mark, often molded into the plastic camera case.) It sounds like this could result in very substantial financial losses, if a number of cameras are involved.
All Canon cameras have this FCC indicia. So now you tell me how anyone, without knowing serial numbers, can tell where the camera was intended to be sold.
Keep in mind that this artical is not specifically about Canon cameras. Other manufacturers may not put this symbol on all of there cameras. Canon does.
Since this is a Canon SLR forum, the custom issue that you bring up is not an issue here.
This is for the cheap seats:
The change is that the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) has apparently convinced the U.S. Customs Service to begin vigorously enforcing FCC compliance on all imported products. This means that any imported products may be impounded by Customs if they don't carry the required FCC indicia (A special logo or mark, often molded into the plastic camera case.) It sounds like this could result in very substantial financial losses, if a number of cameras are involved.
All Canon cameras have this FCC indicia. So now you tell me how anyone, without knowing serial numbers, can tell where the camera was intended to be sold.
Keep in mind that this artical is not specifically about Canon cameras. Other manufacturers may not put this symbol on all of there cameras. Canon does.
Since this is a Canon SLR forum, the custom issue that you bring up is not an issue here.
mark kay
Veteran Member
Rune. I travel to Europe about 2 or 3 x per year. I am stopped often because i am there for work related reasons and short trips so they do tend to single me out at times. You would be shocked how much stuff they know. For example, I am a physician and scientist and they started asking me very technical and scientific questions to determine if that was my true identity. I was shocked at how much they know. In fact, once they held me for over a half hour. I flew into Amsterdam for 1 day and back to CA but changed to go to Michigan because my father died while i was in europe. They saw in my passport that I had been to Amsterdam often but I explained i was on the board of a company based there and went back and forth for that reason. After looking at the business cards of hte company folks and mine, they asked me very technical questions that non-scientists would not know the answer to. There was no special agent, just the person whose line i went through. Nonetheless, I agree that in general and per my original post that the chance they will question your gear is small but if they do it could delay you or cause you alot of agony. I also see much variablility in customs from place to place. I am sure since sept 11, the focus of the agents has changed somewhat.
In general, I only bring this up as an issue that one needs to consider when buying grey. Would it stop me from these purchases--no, not if the savings were great---especially on items such as lenses that are less likely to require warranty repair as a previous poster suggested.
Mark
In general, I only bring this up as an issue that one needs to consider when buying grey. Would it stop me from these purchases--no, not if the savings were great---especially on items such as lenses that are less likely to require warranty repair as a previous poster suggested.
Mark
That sounds iffy at best.in and out of the country. In theory, Custom agents are trained to
distinguish grey market from USA sold goods. If you buy a grey
item and do not have a copy of the purchase ticket, they can charge
Then again, I don't know anything about US customs.
Here in Norway, there's a limit of roughly $800 before you have to
pay VAT on merchandise purchased abroad. If you bring with you
expensive equipment, you're supposed to fill in a form before
leaving the country and get it authorised. This form contains the
serial number of the item in question and some other information.
When I went abroad in May with my brand new D60, the customs
officer told me that they very rarely bother checking camera
equipment, but if I felt strongly about it then she'd issue a form
for me nonetheless.
In theory the D60 I showed her could've been a D60 that I had
brought with me on a previous journey (I've never been stopped by
customs officers). She performed no background checks nor recorded
my serial number.
I'd be very surprised if US customs have managed to come up with an
even more elaborate scheme than that. I suspect they handle more
traffic than Norwegian customs...
--
Rune
George Richardson
Leading Member
-----------------------It seems that unless the folks here see a written legal copy
composed by Canon's own legal department stating :
We at Canon Corporation would like to state plainly and
purposefully that WE as a corporation Do and WILL stand behind each
and every piece of merchandise our factories produce regardless of
importing country of origin.
While that might very well NOT happen, I'm not going to lose sleep
over the fact that if you call Canon U.S.A (and I have) and discuss
this matter, what I've stated above is pretty much exactly what
they told ME. If it makes you sleep any better, or give this absurd
argument up, go right ahead and give them a call for
yourself......At least then you'll be closer to believing it.
Needless to say This is the Internet and many of you wont' believe
it NO MATTER WHAT. So go and buy from whomever turns you one and
takes care of you and GO OUT AND SHOOT SOME PICTURES....
If I buy a NEW canon camera/lens in the U.S and get a recept,then go to the UK,and the camera/lens 'dont work',canon will fix it.
ALL cameras are the same.
As for gray imports,from the U.S,and doing the same as ubove,it shouldnt make any difference.Its a NEW product from the canon factory.
Regards to all
And keep hunting for the best deals
GR
Michael Porter
Leading Member
Here's what Henry Posner of B&H photo posted previously on this subject:Lastly, I have been the only one to quote a source, except for Lee
but he also takes the same position, to back up what I am saying.
Canon will warranty anything they sell any where in the world.
Could you please use something other then your opinion to give some
validity to your statements? Lee has and I have.
And here's the link to the whole thread:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=2217654
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
...Canon USA has an unwritten policy that if you send a "grey market" product with dated proof-of-purchase to them for warranty service they'll handle the item as if it was in-warranty. This ONLY applies to Canon USA, and NOT to an authorized service facility. They are (by the way) under no obligation to continue this policy and could, if they wished, do a complete turnabout tomorrow.
What you need is the dated store invoice. The nifty "internat'l warranty" card is worthless in the USA.....
--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.
mark kay
Veteran Member
Yes I have been informed similarly. So if you purchase a canon product while in Korea or Japan, there would be no warranty work allowed in the USA, you would have to send it back to the country of origin. Only Greg and not Lee have stated otherwise. Lee was referring to Grey purchased in the USA like Delta and not items purchased abroad. Mark
Here's what Henry Posner of B&H photo posted previously on thisLastly, I have been the only one to quote a source, except for Lee
but he also takes the same position, to back up what I am saying.
Canon will warranty anything they sell any where in the world.
Could you please use something other then your opinion to give some
validity to your statements? Lee has and I have.
subject:
And here's the link to the whole thread:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=2217654
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
...Canon USA has an unwritten policy that if you send a "grey
market" product with dated proof-of-purchase to them for warranty
service they'll handle the item as if it was in-warranty. This ONLY
applies to Canon USA, and NOT to an authorized service facility.
They are (by the way) under no obligation to continue this policy
and could, if they wished, do a complete turnabout tomorrow.
What you need is the dated store invoice. The nifty "internat'l
warranty" card is worthless in the USA.....
--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.
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