Ethics Question

Before anybody can give you an informed answer, we need to know whether the man is recognizable in the photo. If "no," then there is no issue; feel free to use the photo. If "yes," was the man aware you took his photo? If "yes," then you're free to publish the photo for editorial use.
 
You should just be aware of the consequences if you publish a photo
of people in a situation they don't want to be seen in because it
might mean it could by used against them even though you or they had
no idea.
If the subjects are in a public place, they shouldn't put themselves
in such a compromising position. It's not the photographer's fault.
It is if the photographer ignore permissions or model release forms. Public place or not. The photographer must know the rules and not the people being photographed. Ignorance is no excuse for not obeying laws. In this case I think these laws and rules are reasonable. It basically means that if people feel intimidated then you can't publish photos of them and I find that OK. People might not be aware of being photographed but you know exactly what you got and this is why it should be your responsibillity and your fault if those rules are violated.

--
.......
Have a nice day (a picture is worth a thousand words)
Jim

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dotnik:
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Before anybody can give you an informed answer, we need to know
whether the man is recognizable in the photo. If "no," then there is
no issue; feel free to use the photo. If "yes," was the man aware you
took his photo? If "yes," then you're free to publish the photo for
editorial use.
That is correct because you can't intimidate someone people can not identify.

This is why we see photos of people with their faces covered by black boxes but those black boxes also make everything look much less photogenic.

--
.......
Have a nice day (a picture is worth a thousand words)
Jim

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dotnik:
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Trouble is - most people don't know the rules.

There is no rule (law) prohibiting the publishing of any photo in the US, with the following exceptions.

1. If there was an expectation of privacy
2. If the picture could cause embarrassment or harm to the subject.
3. If the picture is being used for commercial purposes.

In this instance - the church is open to the public and therefore the law would indicate that there is no expectation of privacy.

It is unlikely that any person would be held up to criticism for praying and therefore it's unlikely that point two could be used against a photographer.

Finally - the OP has indicated that he has no intention of using the photo for commercial use (ie promoting a product), so that rule doesn't count either.

No rule broken, photo is fine.

Ethics is an entirely different issue though. For that you have to look towards your own conscience. I wouldn't photograph anyone that I knew was praying because I wouldn't want to disturb them. But that's just me.

--
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/jamesverhoeven
http://www.photographyvoice.com/pv/potd/Archive.aspx?st=P&c=12387
http://community.webshots.com/user/jimbob_productions
 
You know, I wouldn't take legal advice from an open board on the internet if I was you! For the USA, Jimbob gave you the real answer. Although his profile says Australia, his answers are valid for the USA.

And before people from other countries jump up and down too much- laws are different in different countries!

Now ethics is something else as you know and are wondering. I'll give you a question that I was taught as an undergraduate when it came to evaluating what people were doing with 'documentary' photography, which your situation at least bumps against-

Who is getting more form this photograph, the photographer or the subject?

Photography is full of cases where someone goes into a community, a place, etc., takes the photos, turns them into a series of striking prints. And sometimes the images make the subjects' lives better.

Look at Eugene Smith and Minamata, where he not only took some amazing photographs but used them as part of a campaign to get the mercury poisoning stopped and victims compensated.

Then look at Gary Winogrand and how he thrived on making people look stupid. But it got him grants and teaching gigs and gallery sales.

My own ethical standard for showing images taken in public or quasi-public is whether I was the person shown, would I feel as if my life, my being, had been cheapened or lessened? And in showing the image, am I saying anything about people, the person shown, that is worth saying?
--
Dan Daniel

http://dandaniel.zenfolio.com/
 
There is taking a picture of a person out in public... to me that is fair game... however a church is a private institution and therefore the person never made himself available at that time to public eyes... therefore the picture would require his concent to be used on a public forum
--
Mike from Canada

'I like to think so far outside the box that it would require a telephoto lens just to see the box!' ~ 'My Quote :)'



http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?sort_order=views%20DESC&first_this_page=0&page_limit=180&&emailsearch=mighty_mike88%40hotmail.com&thumbnails=
 
We just had a discussion about this in my photo class. If I understand correctly, the laws vary a bit from state-to-state. According to my teacher, in Illinois, you can legally take pictures in any public place without the permission of the people you're photographing. However, if someone in an official capacity asks you to leave, they have the right to do that.

In a church, I'd imagine things get a little greyer from a legal standpoint. It is a public building, but there's probably an expectation of privacy as well.

Setting aside the law, ethically speaking, I would probably not use a picture of someone if I felt like it truly invaded their privacy.
--
Peter
nifty50.net
 
In this instance - the church is open to the public and therefore the
law would indicate that there is no expectation of privacy.
I agree with you except on this point, many churches are open so that anyone can come and go as they please however this does not mean that the church is a public place as once you are in the church you are in a private sanctuary... many businesses are open to the public but the business is considered private property and so is the church... therefore even though people can come and go it doesn't mean that anything inside the church is public.

--
Mike from Canada

'I like to think so far outside the box that it would require a telephoto lens just to see the box!' ~ 'My Quote :)'



http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?sort_order=views%20DESC&first_this_page=0&page_limit=180&&emailsearch=mighty_mike88%40hotmail.com&thumbnails=
 
if the man was praying at a public altar inside ... is it private?
if the man was preying at a gravestone outside ... is it public?

i would post the pic at the altar before i would post the pic at the grave even though it is in a more public place than the first.

as someone else said ... do unto others etc etc
--
Shane,Gold Coast Aussie. Lens list in profile.
http://bigred4x4.blogspot.com/2008/01/welcome.html

 
you can legally take pictures in any public place without the permission of the > people you're photographing. However, if someone in an official capacity asks > you to leave, they have the right to do that.
What is official capacity, how far up do you have to go?

I was taking pics in my public park, 6 houses down the street from me. Two men came out of the community center and asked what I was doing, I was close to the public pool and they thought I was taking pics of the swimmers, I was not. Anyways they tell me I cant take pics. They where not elected officials, only employees of the city. So do they have "official capacity" and the power to do this? I think it could get complicated in a hurry.

--
jamesm007

http://s195.photobucket.com/albums/z77/jamesm700/
 
Of course - the church can set the boundaries - but all they can ask you to do is leave unless they have set conditions of entry - for example - those printed on an entry ticket or conditions posted at the entry of the church.

They can't even ask you to delete photographs as that would be harrassment.

You are not breaking the law until you refuse to leave, or take pictures after being asked to leave.

Now all that said - if you broke into a confessional and took photos that would definitely breach privacy.

--
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/jamesverhoeven
http://www.photographyvoice.com/pv/potd/Archive.aspx?st=P&c=12387
http://community.webshots.com/user/jimbob_productions
 
You should just be aware of the consequences if you publish a photo
of people in a situation they don't want to be seen in because it
might mean it could by used against them even though you or they had
no idea.
If the subjects are in a public place, they shouldn't put themselves
in such a compromising position. It's not the photographer's fault.
It is if the photographer ignore permissions or model release forms.
Public place or not. The photographer must know the rules and not the
people being photographed. Ignorance is no excuse for not obeying
laws.
If the subject is in a public place or can be seen from a public way or from property the photography has permission to be on, no permission from the subject is necessary. This isn't only ethics, it's the law.
It
basically means that if people feel intimidated then you can't
publish photos of them and I find that OK.
There is no right not to feel intimidated. There is, however, a right to free speech, which is what photography is.
 
Trouble is - most people don't know the rules.

There is no rule (law) prohibiting the publishing of any photo in the
US, with the following exceptions.

1. If there was an expectation of privacy
2. If the picture could cause embarrassment or harm to the subject.
3. If the picture is being used for commercial purposes.

In this instance - the church is open to the public and therefore the
law would indicate that there is no expectation of privacy.
Although the public may be allowed to enter a church, this does not necessarily mean the church allows photography or that a churhgoer would not have a reasonable expectation of privacy.
 
In my country there was a case where a journalist took a photo of a couple on a beach holding hands. That photo was used in a harmless stroy about beach life.

The problem was that this particular couple was indeed married. Just not to each other. In this case both the paper and the photographer were charged by this couple and lost. The judge said that publishing without permission was not right and the photographer could just have used models to tell the same story. If you look in a danish newspaper you will see such model photos used regularly.

I find this balance in line with my own perception of privacy. Perhaps I should have made clear that I was talking about danish law.

--
.......
Have a nice day (a picture is worth a thousand words)
Jim

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dotnik:
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Yes Jim, the rules are different in each country. Here in Australia they differ from state to state. I believe there are similar differences in some American states.

The important thing in this discussion though is that there is a distinct difference between ethics and the law. The law is the base level of behaviour that society finds acceptable. I would hope that most people live their life to a higher standard than that.

--
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/jamesverhoeven
http://www.photographyvoice.com/pv/potd/Archive.aspx?st=P&c=12387
http://community.webshots.com/user/jimbob_productions
 
I actually think we agree about this difference. My way to deal with this ethically is simply to ask people. Ethics exist besides the law which means they are a mix of common and individual levels of acceptance. In this case I have a high degree of respect for each individual. If I have the courage to photograph people in public then I should also have the courage to ask those people out of respect. Otherwise I would seriously start to doubt my own motives.

Still laws reflect ethics and moral to a certain degree.

To me ethics in this case is not about how I as a photographer can get away with publishing a photo without having to ask people politely but I also like to talk to people. Why worry about violating ethics if you can settle things right away.
Yes Jim, the rules are different in each country. Here in Australia
they differ from state to state. I believe there are similar
differences in some American states.

The important thing in this discussion though is that there is a
distinct difference between ethics and the law. The law is the base
level of behaviour that society finds acceptable. I would hope that
most people live their life to a higher standard than that.
--
.......
Have a nice day (a picture is worth a thousand words)
Jim

Link to Pentax SLR Forum Best images:
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Inspiration Challenge - in depth feedback guaranteed

dotnik:
'Don't overestimate technology - nothing is knowledgefree'

Gray weather is no excuse:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=23468947

 
It is if the photographer ignore permissions or model release forms.
Public place or not. The photographer must know the rules and not the
people being photographed. Ignorance is no excuse for not obeying
laws.
If the subject is in a public place or can be seen from a public way
or from property the photography has permission to be on, no
permission from the subject is necessary. This isn't only ethics,
it's the law.
Of course you should be able to photograph in a public place. Ethically your respect towards people is hopefully higher than what the law tells you.
It
basically means that if people feel intimidated then you can't
publish photos of them and I find that OK.
There is no right not to feel intimidated. There is, however, a right
to free speech, which is what photography is.
Freedom of speech in this case is about certain public interests being taken care of but in such situations you can publish a photo regardless of being an a public or private space. Freedom of speech is not a general right to publish photos of people violating their personal integrety. Again asking people politely will be the ethically right thing to do in most situations.

--
.......
Have a nice day (a picture is worth a thousand words)
Jim

Link to Pentax SLR Forum Best images:
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dotnik:
'Don't overestimate technology - nothing is knowledgefree'

Gray weather is no excuse:
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