I'm doubting the G1 will be a success ...

Pixelizer · Oct 22, 2008

I think you have to ask yourself what the G1 really offers:

A bigger/better sensor? Well, yes and no. The micro 4/3 form factor is better than small CCD sensors in other Panasonic digitals in most ways, but it arguably isn't the equal of the big CMOS sensors in Nikon and Canon DSLR's.

An EVF? Well, yes - those of us who are fans of prosumer cameras love the EVF for its live preview of exposure and focus and its review of pictures just taken. But so-called "real" photographers (aka DSLR users) still turn up their noses at anything but a true optical VF. So, is the market for bridge camera mover-uppers big enough to make an EVF DSLR lookalike a success? I sincerely doubt it.

Smaller, lighter lenses and bodies? The announced lenses for the G1 are slow (f/3.5), and there are so far limited offerings. There are promises of more, but unless the G1 is a screaming sales success, those other lenses won't make it to market. And aftermarket lensmakers aren't going to jump eagerly onto a sinking ship either. Yes, the bodies can be made smaller, but smaller doesn't always mean better to a photographer.

Cross-compatibility? Only Oly so far is in the game with Panasonic, and even at that they differ in their application of IS (in-lens v. in-body), so they really aren't interchangeable in practical terms.

Price advantage? I don't think so, since you can buy a DSLR + kit lens for about the price of the G1.

From what I've seen in person and in multiple discussion forums, the bulk of DSLR users are chuckling at the G1. They tend to view it as a "bridge DSLR", if you will ... neither fish nor fowl. In that regard, they see it as not much more than a glorified FZ with a couple of interchangeable lenses. In other words, not a real threat to their DSLR establishment. Elitism is at work here, and it's a powerful factor in marketing.

If the G1 flops, Panasonic will have the modern equivalent of the APS film camera debacle on their hands. Photographers in the 90's saw no benefit to the new APS format, and it died on the vine. The G1 may end up sharing the same fate.

I want Panasonic to be successful, but I have to question the direction they are taking. the market right now is split between P&S (which unfortunately includes prosumer bridge cameras) and DSLR's, and it appears for now that never the twain shall meet. Trying to wedge something into the narrow middle ground isn't the wisest of moves in my opinion.

--
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.

Franklin · Oct 22, 2008

Looked like your argument is more targeted to M4/3 in general than just G1. Here is my thinking on M4/3:
If M4/3 succeed, good for Panasonic and they got their feet in a winner circle.

If M4/3 fails, Olympus probably will follow Minolta's fade. Panasonic is too big to disappear. They only need to reinvent themselves by partner with somebody else or do something else themselves. Additionally they have one less competitor to worry.

Pixelizer said:
I think you have to ask yourself what the G1 really offers:

A bigger/better sensor? Well, yes and no. The micro 4/3 form factor

is better than small CCD sensors in other Panasonic digitals in most
ways, but it arguably isn't the equal of the big CMOS sensors in
Nikon and Canon DSLR's.

An EVF? Well, yes - those of us who are fans of prosumer cameras

love the EVF for its live preview of exposure and focus and its
review of pictures just taken. But so-called "real" photographers
(aka DSLR users) still turn up their noses at anything but a true
optical VF. So, is the market for bridge camera mover-uppers big
enough to make an EVF DSLR lookalike a success? I sincerely doubt it.

Smaller, lighter lenses and bodies? The announced lenses for the G1

are slow (f/3.5), and there are so far limited offerings. There are
promises of more, but unless the G1 is a screaming sales success,
those other lenses won't make it to market. And aftermarket
lensmakers aren't going to jump eagerly onto a sinking ship either.
Yes, the bodies can be made smaller, but smaller doesn't always mean
better to a photographer.

Cross-compatibility? Only Oly so far is in the game with Panasonic,

and even at that they differ in their application of IS (in-lens v.
in-body), so they really aren't interchangeable in practical terms.

Price advantage? I don't think so, since you can buy a DSLR + kit

lens for about the price of the G1.

From what I've seen in person and in multiple discussion forums, the
bulk of DSLR users are chuckling at the G1. They tend to view it as a
"bridge DSLR", if you will ... neither fish nor fowl. In that regard,
they see it as not much more than a glorified FZ with a couple of
interchangeable lenses. In other words, not a real threat to their
DSLR establishment. Elitism is at work here, and it's a powerful
factor in marketing.

If the G1 flops, Panasonic will have the modern equivalent of the APS
film camera debacle on their hands. Photographers in the 90's saw no
benefit to the new APS format, and it died on the vine. The G1 may
end up sharing the same fate.

I want Panasonic to be successful, but I have to question the
direction they are taking. the market right now is split between P&S
(which unfortunately includes prosumer bridge cameras) and DSLR's,
and it appears for now that never the twain shall meet. Trying to
wedge something into the narrow middle ground isn't the wisest of
moves in my opinion.

--
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.

Guido FORRIER · Oct 22, 2008

i am a dslr user and i buy the G1 . I have lots of reasons to do so . Am i the only one?
Guido

Barry Fitzgerald · Oct 22, 2008

Nothing wrong with the idea or concept, but at it's release price, it's not likely to be a hot seller.

I vote for APS/4/3 compacts, and none of this silly lens change stuff, I have SLR's, I don't need another lens system.

I think Panasonic have missed the point, and cough,...the price!

Guido FORRIER · Oct 22, 2008

yes all about money : i have the choice: or a cheap extra lens or a whole camera + lens.
guido

9NAME · Oct 22, 2008

Panasonic has taken a risk by investing in a big fashion on innovation in a slow to change industry. They will be rewarded in a BIG way once the G1HD hits the street. Sales target is 15% of DSLR market and production goals of 15,000 units per month. Check back in six months for report card. World wide recession might crimp the outlook but product is golden.

Entropius · Oct 22, 2008

Pixelizer said:
A bigger/better sensor? Well, yes and no. The micro 4/3 form factor

is better than small CCD sensors in other Panasonic digitals in most
ways, but it arguably isn't the equal of the big CMOS sensors in
Nikon and Canon DSLR's.'

So Four-Thirds isn't quite up to APS-C. The difference isn't that big. Many people are perfectly content with FZ50-level high ISO performance; for many folks (including myself) a Four-Thirds sensor is plenty.

Pixelizer said:
An EVF? Well, yes - those of us who are fans of prosumer cameras

love the EVF for its live preview of exposure and focus and its
review of pictures just taken. But so-called "real" photographers
(aka DSLR users) still turn up their noses at anything but a true
optical VF. So, is the market for bridge camera mover-uppers big
enough to make an EVF DSLR lookalike a success? I sincerely doubt it.

Once people realize the benefits of EVF's this statement may have to reevaluated... once portfolios show up with excellent G1 images.

Pixelizer said:
Smaller, lighter lenses and bodies? The announced lenses for the G1

are slow (f/3.5), and there are so far limited offerings.

The limited offerings are fairly comprehensive, though: 14mm-400mm (slow zooms) and a fast prime. Older Four-Thirds lenses work too.

Pixelizer said:
Cross-compatibility? Only Oly so far is in the game with Panasonic,

and even at that they differ in their application of IS (in-lens v.
in-body), so they really aren't interchangeable in practical terms.

This is my one concern about the G1.

Pixelizer said:
Price advantage? I don't think so, since you can buy a DSLR + kit

lens for about the price of the G1.

Right ... but a DSLR with a huge viewfinder, an incredibly versatile autofocus tracking system, no mirror slap, and smaller than any other on the market?

Pixelizer said:
From what I've seen in person and in multiple discussion forums, the
bulk of DSLR users are chuckling at the G1. They tend to view it as a
"bridge DSLR", if you will ... neither fish nor fowl.

It is neither fish nor fowl. It's something new. It's a mix of the best attributes of bridge cameras and DSLR's.

Pixelizer said:
In that regard,
they see it as not much more than a glorified FZ with a couple of
interchangeable lenses. In other words, not a real threat to their
DSLR establishment. Elitism is at work here, and it's a powerful
factor in marketing.

People have been predicting the death of Four-Thirds for a while now on similar grounds. Panasonic's got very deep pockets and has the cash and the patience to stick with the system until it's matured, and the engineering acumen to make it work.

Pixelizer said:
If the G1 flops, Panasonic will have the modern equivalent of the APS
film camera debacle on their hands. Photographers in the 90's saw no
benefit to the new APS format, and it died on the vine. The G1 may
end up sharing the same fate.

I want Panasonic to be successful, but I have to question the
direction they are taking. the market right now is split between P&S
(which unfortunately includes prosumer bridge cameras) and DSLR's,
and it appears for now that never the twain shall meet. Trying to
wedge something into the narrow middle ground isn't the wisest of
moves in my opinion.

If it's an engineering success, the "market positioning" nonsense becomes much easier.

Entropius · Oct 22, 2008

Franklin said:
If M4/3 fails, Olympus probably will follow Minolta's fade.

Why? They've still got the successful Four-Thirds system. Sure, it's not as big as Nikon or Canon, but they're still making cameras and lenses and selling them.

GregGory · Oct 22, 2008

Barry Fitzgerald said:
I vote for APS/4/3 compacts, and none of this silly lens change
stuff, I have SLR's, I don't need another lens system.

It's beyond my mind why people consider lens interchangeability as a con. Please, explain WHY? Nobody says you have to change the lenses...

Entropius · Oct 22, 2008

More to the point, is it possible to make a one-size-fits-all lens for Four-Thirds?

We know it can be done for 1/1.8" -- there's the FZ50. But can a usable superzoom (12x or better) be made for Four-Thirds that matches the FZ50's sharpness?

larsbc · Oct 22, 2008

Pixelizer said:
I think you have to ask yourself what the G1 really offers:

First, you have to identify the market that Panasonic is aiming at. IMO it is the P&S users who want the benefits that are current driving entry DSLR sales: better picture quality, faster response times (AF, shot-to-shot, start-up). Note that I am saying "better," and not "ultimate."

Pixelizer said:
A bigger/better sensor? Well, yes and no. The micro 4/3 form factor

is better than small CCD sensors in other Panasonic digitals in most
ways, but it arguably isn't the equal of the big CMOS sensors in
Nikon and Canon DSLR's.

And it is noticeably better than any other P&S aside from the Sigma DP1/2 and Sony R1 (which really isn't a P&S). For the G1's target market, I think the 4/3 sensor will be fine for them.

Pixelizer said:
An EVF? Well, yes - those of us who are fans of prosumer cameras

love the EVF for its live preview of exposure and focus and its
review of pictures just taken. But so-called "real" photographers
(aka DSLR users) still turn up their noses at anything but a true
optical VF. So, is the market for bridge camera mover-uppers big
enough to make an EVF DSLR lookalike a success? I sincerely doubt it.

The market is bridge camera users and P&S users who want better performance. It's a big enough market for Canon, Sony, Pentax, Olympus and Nikon to build entry level cameras for.

Pixelizer said:
Smaller, lighter lenses and bodies? The announced lenses for the G1

are slow (f/3.5), and there are so far limited offerings. There are
promises of more, but unless the G1 is a screaming sales success,
those other lenses won't make it to market.

Those lenses do appear to be smaller and lighter. The body is pretty small, too.

Pixelizer said:
And aftermarket
lensmakers aren't going to jump eagerly onto a sinking ship either.

It sounds like some of the Olympus lenses will be useable and AF-able on the G1, after some firmware updates.

Pixelizer said:
Yes, the bodies can be made smaller, but smaller doesn't always mean
better to a photographer.

And yet many people are choosing cameras with a big emphasis on small size. Again, think about the target market.

Pixelizer said:
Cross-compatibility? Only Oly so far is in the game with Panasonic,

and even at that they differ in their application of IS (in-lens v.
in-body), so they really aren't interchangeable in practical terms.

I don't know what you definition of practical is, but some Oly lenses are going to be AF-able on the G1, and for many users, that's good enough.

Pixelizer said:
Price advantage? I don't think so, since you can buy a DSLR + kit

lens for about the price of the G1.

True. The G1's selling points will have to make the price diff. less important.

Pixelizer said:
From what I've seen in person and in multiple discussion forums, the
bulk of DSLR users are chuckling at the G1. They tend to view it as a
"bridge DSLR", if you will ... neither fish nor fowl. In that regard,
they see it as not much more than a glorified FZ with a couple of
interchangeable lenses. In other words, not a real threat to their
DSLR establishment. Elitism is at work here, and it's a powerful
factor in marketing.

I don't think that's going to dramatically hurt the G1's appeal to its intended market.

Pixelizer said:
If the G1 flops, Panasonic will have the modern equivalent of the APS
film camera debacle on their hands. Photographers in the 90's saw no
benefit to the new APS format, and it died on the vine. The G1 may
end up sharing the same fate.

Anything is possible, sure. But I think their plan to build a more video-capable version of the G1 is an excellent idea. Besides size (and the wee bit of digitized data), APS really had nothing going for it. M 4/3 has other benefits that appeal to the P&S crowd:

1. True WYSIWYG image framing that doesn't involve a kludgy implementation of live view.
2. Much better implementation of a video mode, thanks to its EVF.
3. Better image quality than what they're used to.

Pixelizer said:
I want Panasonic to be successful, but I have to question the
direction they are taking. the market right now is split between P&S
(which unfortunately includes prosumer bridge cameras) and DSLR's,
and it appears for now that never the twain shall meet. Trying to
wedge something into the narrow middle ground isn't the wisest of
moves in my opinion.

Dominating a niche is a well-regarded business tactic.

larsbc

Gregm61 · Oct 22, 2008

Franklin said:
If M4/3 fails, Olympus probably will follow Minolta's fade.

Same song, different spin, 15th verse. Everything but last rights, and as always, from a non-Olympus user.

If Micro four-thirds fails, it won't mean a hill of beans to those of us buying and using Olympus "full" 4/3rd's DSLR's, or those thinking about a DSLR. We're all about to find out just how far apart the two systems really still are in terms of what you can and still cannot do with a G1. If you just want something smaller that takes separate lenses, that's one thing. If you really think this is a substitute for everything a DSLR can do....

Gregm61 · Oct 22, 2008

Entropius said:
We know it can be done for 1/1.8" -- there's the FZ50. But can a
usable superzoom (12x or better) be made for Four-Thirds that matches
the FZ50's sharpness?

Probably not, and us still be able to afford and hand-hold it. An f2.8-3.7 zoom that covers a 35-420mm range, and can cast an image circle big enough to cover the 4/3rd's-size sensor, which is substantially larger than the FZ50's sensor? That's got big bucks and big size written all over it. Yes, they probably can make it, but few here would, or could, buy it.

Gregm61 · Oct 22, 2008

Gregm61 said:
Franklin said:

If M4/3 fails, Olympus probably will follow Minolta's fade.

Click to expand...

Same song, different spin, 15th verse. Everything but last rights,
and as always, from a non-Olympus user.

....I see you do have an E330....shame on you!

Entropius · Oct 22, 2008

I doubt they can make it at all at f/2.8-3.7.

A slower zoom of that range will still have sharpness problems, though, won't it?

A 35-420 (equiv) f/4.5-5.6 would be wonderful if it were affordable and sharp, though.

Barry Fitzgerald · Oct 22, 2008

GregGory said:
It's beyond my mind why people consider lens interchangeability as a
con. Please, explain WHY? Nobody says you have to change the lenses...

I never said a con, but I feel that the big numbers of buyers, do not want to do this.

kernow · Oct 22, 2008

The number of buyers moving up from P&S or bridge cameras far exceeds pro shooters. That right there is one reason Panasonic is all over this. If they built a camera to compete with Canon and Nikon DSLRs one on one they would have a tougher sell, Canon and Nikon already have a loyal following and users with lenses, lenses are available cheaply on the secondary market etc.
--
Oll an gwella,
Jim

http://www.flickr.com/photos/50073525@N00/

[FX07]
[LX1]

[FZ30] * IS/L B-300 * IS/L B-Macro * Minolta No. 0, No. 1 & No. 2 * Sunpak 383 * Benbo Trekker

WC Wood · Oct 22, 2008

You like DSLR, and won't be buying the G1....OK. However, there is a large market for those of us who like bridge cameras, and who have little interest in messing with a big DSLR kit. What we're unhappy about, though, is the small sensor in the bridge camera. The G1 promises to be a nice answer to this.

--
W.C.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29320396@N05/show/
Digilux 2
FZ18
'Are you warm, are you real, Mona Lisa?
Or just a cold and lonely, lovely work of art?'

'Mona Lisa', recorded by Nat King Cole - 1950

Barry Fitzgerald · Oct 22, 2008

kernow said:
The number of buyers moving up from P&S or bridge cameras far exceeds
pro shooters. That right there is one reason Panasonic is all over
this. If they built a camera to compete with Canon and Nikon DSLRs
one on one they would have a tougher sell, Canon and Nikon already
have a loyal following and users with lenses, lenses are available
cheaply on the secondary market etc.

People that buy £250 DSLR's are not pro shooters either! Well maybe a few buy some as a backup or something, no doubt.

Yes I am sure that there is a market for smaller cameras, not so sure that most will want the lens change, but that is a moot point ;-)

Are people going to buy this, and be prepared to stump up the extra wonga for the joys of it, or are most just going to see the price tag, think mini SLR style camera (looks wise), and walk out with a cheap Canikonsony???

Pixelizer · Oct 22, 2008

No, I'm a bridge camera kind of guy. I have an FZ50, an FZ30 and had an FZ20 (which I sold to get the 30).

I'm one of the crowd wishing they would produce an FZ60 instead of a G1!

WC Wood said:
You like DSLR, and won't be buying the G1....OK. However, there is
a large market for those of us who like bridge cameras, and who have
little interest in messing with a big DSLR kit. What we're unhappy
about, though, is the small sensor in the bridge camera. The G1
promises to be a nice answer to this.

--
W.C.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29320396@N05/show/
Digilux 2
FZ18
'Are you warm, are you real, Mona Lisa?
Or just a cold and lonely, lovely work of art?'

'Mona Lisa', recorded by Nat King Cole - 1950

--
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.

I'm doubting the G1 will be a success ...

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