Workflow pet peeves: Anyone HATE color balance editing?

Hi all,

I HATE color balance work. It's the bane of my photography workflow.. (which used to be dust spotting from scanned film... haha). Goodness gracious, there are so many variables: highlight, midtone, shadow cb... and THEN there's Preserve Luminosity, or not! I still don't understand that luminosity business that well. Ack, so frustrating! Anything wanna join my rant? LOL. Thanks for listening. Rant over.

Take care,
Huy

P.S. You can post your workflow pet peeves here too, I don't mind.

Here's an example to illustrate my point.

1) Which one do you prefer? Please don't say either. ;D haha. If you had to pick.

2) Which one is "correct"? And what constitutes correct, the color of the plants, or the color of her skin?

Color balance, for me, is somewhat of a headache, as I'm somewhat indecisive, I think. ;P

But if you adjust for the skin, the plants in the background won't be correct, but if I adjust for the plants, the skin seems a bit red and over the top... but then again, is that correct, as some of the red stripes in the blanket may be reflecting back onto her.

So, do you go with technically correct, or emotional response, as in "A", where the warmth may or may not add to the image, per your preference. Please explain. Thanks.

Sincerely,
Huy

I should include the pictures.

The image is of the person, all other scene setting objects are fin for the context, but do not constitute the purpose of the image, therfre your decision is straightforward, CB for skin tones.

Well I like A the best , but B may very well be more accurate. There is no right or wrong when it comes to color . Camera brand X does not have better color than camera brand Y . And why is that , because it's all subjective .

Nicholas Ripley said:

The image is of the person, all other scene setting objects are fin
for the context, but do not constitute the purpose of the image,
therfre your decision is straightforward, CB for skin tones.

Click to expand...

I agree!

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Hi Nicholas,

Thank you very much for your reply. Since you put it that way, it really is straightforward.

Maybe your reply doesn't take into consideration the two pictures I posted, but which one do you think is CBed for her skin tone? I don't even think "B" is correct in that regard. Another question: Which of the two do you prefer? I know it's all subjective; just curious.

Take care.

Sincerely,
Huy (sounds like "we")

Nicholas Ripley said:

The image is of the person, all other scene setting objects are fin
for the context, but do not constitute the purpose of the image,
therfre your decision is straightforward, CB for skin tones.

Click to expand...

Dear claypaws,

I always appreciate your input. Thanks.

Do you have a preference for "A", or "B"?

Take care,
Huy (sounds like "Oui" ;P)

claypaws said:

Nicholas Ripley said:

The image is of the person, all other scene setting objects are fin
for the context, but do not constitute the purpose of the image,
therfre your decision is straightforward, CB for skin tones.

Click to expand...

I agree!

Click to expand...

Hi billphoto,

Thanks for letting me know your preference. I like the picture in general, and that's why I downloaded it. I'm working on some film scans at the moment, trying to rescue them from a bad scan job. Surprisingly, the info within them is quite resilient, and can stand up to all my adjustments. But then again, from my own experience, I should have known that earlier, and not quit on them so early on. Anyways, I came across the above image and thought to myself, "hmm, I wonder how this would look, and if I would like it better if I adjusted it to be "correct". It's a quick adjust, so I shouldn't complain about the skin tones in "B". But still, I think I like "A" better, though "B" is more "accurate", as how I imagine the plants to be.

Welps, that's about it. Thanks again.

Take care,
Huy (sounds like "ew"... I mean "we".. typed too fast.)

billphoto said:

Well I like A the best , but B may very well be more accurate. There
is no right or wrong when it comes to color . Camera brand X does not
have better color than camera brand Y . And why is that , because
it's all subjective .

Click to expand...

huyzer said:

But if you adjust for the skin, the plants in the background won't be
correct, but if I adjust for the plants, the skin seems a bit red and
over the top... but then again, is that correct, as some of the red
stripes in the blanket may be reflecting back onto her.

Click to expand...

huyzer said:

So, do you go with technically correct, or emotional response, as in
"A", where the warmth may or may not add to the image, per your
preference. Please explain. Thanks.

Click to expand...

Always go with emotion. Technical correctness, even if you could define it, has no relevance to the emotional impact of an image. And I really don't think technical correctness can be defined anyway.

I find image B simply much too cold. Taking all the yellow out of the light has made the model look like a lobster.

Image A is fairly pleasing to me, given that the scene seems to be sunny. Though it does have a slight green cast, to my eye.

Another way to balance is to make something neutral that you think should look neutral in that scene in that light. That is not necessarily the same as setting to neutral a known neutral object (because neutral objects do and should take on the colour of the ambient light).

In either of those images, the white/grey covering on the ground, in shadow, in front of the fence looks like a good candidate for being neutral because it has no obvious claim to colour and it is not in sun. In image B, it looks very blue.

So I would put a curves layer on the image and click the grey dropper within that area with a 5x5 pixel sample. I have shown the region with a red ring in the the following fix of image A.



That gets rid of the green cast in A.

Doing the same fix on image B gives the following:



That gets rid of the blue cast in B.

Both images now have quite similar colour, though B has a bit more contrast, particularly in the shadows, and a little more saturation.

When colours are as way off as they seem to be in B, this curve clicking is quite a good way to bring the colour somewhere within bounds. You can click on a few potentially neutral areas and see if you like the result of any. Then if you wish, you can warm or cool the "corrected" version.

Personally, I only ever use curves to correct or alter colour.

My CWB method usually makes colour correction unnecessary anyway.

--
******************************************************
I have a home on pbase
http://www.pbase.com/claypaws/
If you have the time to look
******************************************************

Yeah, I didn't think of that, but essentially I guess that's what I do (I've just done it intuitively).

Good distillation of the solution.

On the other hand:

• Sometimes it seems like you can't get the skin tones right (particularly

where shadow and highlights have different coloration).

• Sometimes getting the skin right yields visibly ugly background or other

image components that are distracting.

I've never really considered doing say white balance in the shadows separately from the highlights, though I know some converters can (like Silkypix). I usually use Lightroom that doesn't have too many options in that regards and I disdain processing in Photoshop (only because I'm lazy). Sure, a very special/unique photo I wouldn't hesitate going further, but given the number of shots I take a week, that sort of one up tweaking is just too time consuming.

--
Matt Fahrner
http://www.boinkphoto.com

I'd say somewhere between A and B. The A has just a touch too much warmth for me...

--
Matt Fahrner
http://www.boinkphoto.com

Impressive. I suppose someday I should work more in Photoshop. It's one thing I wish Lightroom had which ACR does, which is separate curves for each color channel...

--
Matt Fahrner
http://www.boinkphoto.com

Dear claypaws, (!!!)

Gosh darn you're a wealth of knowledge! Thank YOU for your suggestions! I am such a newb it's pathetic. I had read about being able to use the curves and eye dropper to do color balance work, but of course(!) I forget about it. My memory is bad. But anyways, I didn't know you can select the size of the dropper? You mentioned a 5x5 (px) sample? Or wait, maybe you mean you click multiple times in around that area to find an average. I think there's a tool like that in PS. I'll look into it.

... okay, I looked into it a little bit just now. I didn't find out about the averaging, or 5x5 thing, but I saw a Counting Tool. Haha, now I know about this tool.

claypaws said:

Always go with emotion. Technical correctness, even if you could
define it, has no relevance to the emotional impact of an image. And
I really don't think technical correctness can be defined anyway.

Click to expand...

This makes total sense. For some reason, I'm stuck on having the image resemble what I think I remember of the scene. I sometimes strive to make it as dark as I recall the scene to be, as the camera often brightens a dark environment, and I like it to be "real" (and moody if need be). I come across images nowadays as I'm looking at wedding photographers' portfolios, and they seem so bright. Don't get me wrong, some are still awesome looking, but I'm stuck on dark, or natural, not brighter than what I think I myself would do. I'm thinking it might be psychology; wedding photography should be bright and happy.

claypaws said:

I find image B simply much too cold. Taking all the yellow out of the
light has made the model look like a lobster.

Click to expand...

HAHAHAHA! That last statement was classic.

claypaws said:

Image A is fairly pleasing to me, given that the scene seems to be
sunny. Though it does have a slight green cast, to my eye.

Click to expand...

Hmm, I didn't notice that. I see it now too... or maybe it's the power of suggestion.

claypaws said:

Another way to balance is to make something neutral that you think
should look neutral in that scene in that light. That is not
necessarily the same as setting to neutral a known neutral object
(because neutral objects do and should take on the colour of the
ambient light).

Click to expand...

Man, you are correct! I love that last, clarifying sentence. Makes complete sense when you state it. I wouldn't have thought of it! Well, maybe, hopefully I would subconciously, when I come upon it as I'm fixing a photo.

claypaws said:

So I would put a curves layer on the image and click the grey dropper
within that area with a 5x5 pixel sample.

Click to expand...

After rereading this, I get the sense that you did mean within a 5x5 area. But, I think PhotoShop might do well with having an averaging option with the eyedropper. MAYBE it'll help?

claypaws said:

Personally, I only ever use curves to correct or alter colour.

Click to expand...

I'm gonna have to give this a try, starting now. Thanks!

claypaws said:

My CWB method usually makes colour correction unnecessary anyway.

Click to expand...

Awesome! I still haven't done this... one day.... one day. haha.

Take care, you've been of great help.

Sincerely,
Huy (sounds like "we")

Hi scathew,

scathew said:

On the other hand:

• Sometimes it seems like you can't get the skin tones right

(particularly
where shadow and highlights have different coloration).

• Sometimes getting the skin right yields visibly ugly background or

other
image components that are distracting.

Click to expand...

Yah, I know what you mean. There's such a range of situations, that it's impossible to really come up with any rule. It's all preference and good judgment. I'm imagining a fashion photo with very colorfully lit scenes. You can't make skin look natural there when it's blue (well, you know what I mean). lol

scathew said:

I've never really considered doing say white balance in the shadows
separately from the highlights, though I know some converters can
(like Silkypix).

Click to expand...

Hmm...

scathew said:

I usually use Lightroom that doesn't have too many
options in that regards and I disdain processing in Photoshop (only
because I'm lazy). Sure, a very special/unique photo I wouldn't
hesitate going further, but given the number of shots I take a week,
that sort of one up tweaking is just too time consuming.

Click to expand...

Yah, I'm still stuck on the PhotoShop route for some reason. I need to get to know LightRoom.

Take care,
Huy (sounds like "we")

Dear scathew,

Haha. I catch myself doing that a lot with adjustments when I can't make up my mind when setting my "fade" (Ctrl + Shift + F) setting in PhotoShop. I'm not saying that's what you're doing here.

I'll include the "C" / 50 % setting for reference:

Take care,
Huy (sounds like "we")

scathew said:

I'd say somewhere between A and B. The A has just a touch too much
warmth for me...

Click to expand...

huyzer said:

didn't know you can select the size of the dropper? You mentioned a
5x5 (px) sample? Or wait, maybe you mean you click multiple times in
around that area to find an average.

Click to expand...

No, I mean set it to a 5x5 sample. I'll show you how in a moment.

huyzer said:

After rereading this, I get the sense that you did mean within a 5x5
area. But, I think PhotoShop might do well with having an averaging
option with the eyedropper. MAYBE it'll help?

Click to expand...

No, I mean a 5x5 sample from the dropper. It does have an averaging option within the dropper. Like many things in Photoshop, it isn't obvious!

Here's how to set it.

Open any image - it doesn't matter what or whether it has a curves layer.

Click the dropper tool in the tools palette.

A sample size dropdown box then appears at the top of the window.

Select 5x5 average



Photoshop will then use a 5x5 pixel average whenever you use a dropper in any dialogue at all, including the droppers that show up on the curves dialogue.

The 5x5 average will remain in force unless you change it, even if you close photoshop.

I'll pick up some of your other points shortly. But I thought you would like to see this quickly
--
******************************************************
I have a home on pbase
http://www.pbase.com/claypaws/
If you have the time to look
******************************************************

scathew said:

Impressive. I suppose someday I should work more in Photoshop. It's
one thing I wish Lightroom had which ACR does, which is separate
curves for each color channel...

Click to expand...

Thanks Matt. Once you know how to do this, it is VERY fast. I fixed those two images by clicking the dropper in a curves layer in about 30 seconds for each image.

Open the image,
add a curves layer
click the grey point dropper in the curves dialogue
click, click, click a few times in likely parts of the image
find one I like
click OK

job done.

scathew said:

--
Matt Fahrner
http://www.boinkphoto.com

Click to expand...

--
******************************************************
I have a home on pbase
http://www.pbase.com/claypaws/
If you have the time to look
******************************************************

huyzer said:

Haha. I catch myself doing that a lot with adjustments when I can't
make up my mind when setting my "fade" (Ctrl + Shift + F) setting in
PhotoShop.

I'll include the "C" / 50 % setting for reference:

Click to expand...

It is easier and much more controllable to have the adjusted image in a layer over the top of the unadjusted image.

Instead of fade, just alter the opacity of the layer with the slider.

You can instantly achieve anything from 0% to 100% of the effect of the adjustment and it is instantly alterable and reversible.

I make all my adjustments in layers and I never use the fade tool.
--
******************************************************
I have a home on pbase
http://www.pbase.com/claypaws/
If you have the time to look
******************************************************

--
Charles
My family images are at http://www.stakeman.smugmug.com
Choose your subject wisely. Be sure of it.
Your tool of choice should be transparent to you.
Control your breathing.
Squeeze the trigger, not jab at it.
Never, force the shot.