The Fate of the D60

Doug Eddleman said:

Johnnycb said:

With a Semiconductor background I agree with you 100% and have said
so on these forums before. The computer industry cycles in 6 month
cycles. These digital cameras are nothing more than a computer with
a lens attached. If Canon is manufacturing their own CMOS chips
then ramping production is not that difficult. If they are
"growing" their own silicon for the wafers then this is only a 30
day task from start to finish, unless something happened and you
have to restart the 30 growing period all over from the start.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I think Johnny C. B. is probably thinking of foundry-supplied ASIC chips when he said that production can be ramped up in 6 months. However, I don't think Canon is contracting out to TSMC for their 6MP CMOS sensors. If they're producing them internally, it may take a long time to ramp up production, since they probably can't scavenge their other sensor products: they would have to order the fab equipment, install it, qualify and then ramp it up.

Andy Frazer
http://www.gorillasites.com

Anthony said:

If you ask me, I think Canon shot themselves in the foot when they
put out a 3k camera for 2199.00.

Click to expand...

--

Why do you call it a "3K camera"? It has basically the same electronics as the D30 and it came out two years later. I'd expect it to cost about....ummm...25% less. Remember, this isn't a film camera: it's a small PC-like device with a lens mount. The followup to the D60 will have more pixels and will cost less; just like your PC at home.

Andy Frazer
http://www.gorillasites.com

You're forgetting that the real reason Canon and Nikon are selling the D60's and D100's with such a smal profit is because they want to lock in all the non-Canon/Nikon users who are about to make the jump from film to digital (as well as retaining their existing film users). This market of non-C/N users includes all Olympus, Pentax and Minolta users (did I forget one?). All of them know that to jump to DSLR, they have two major choices (and two minor choices), but most of us are considering between Nikon and Canon. Whichever system we buy into, we're probably going to be locked into for at least ten years, and that's where the money is, not in camera bodies.

Andy Frazer

In the Future;

Some things will be more expensive,
some things will cost less.

Those who buy the expensive things wil be more happy than those who buy things that cost less; some still will not be happy.

Some who buy things that cost less will not be happy and will throw their things on the floor and stomp on them; then sell them on eBay.

Some things will get better and some things worse. Some who buy the better things will still not be happy. These things wil be blamed for their unhappiness.

All unhappy buyers of things will become Forum Nazis and will wantonly indulge in verbal thuggery to find some relief from their unhappiness or predict catastrophes that will punish the happy and the unhappy unlike.

mjbauer said:

mgkaplan said:

With the availability of the Nikon D100 and the Fuji S2, the
marketplace
now has a new set of variables as relates to the D60.

Here is what I believe will be the fate of the D60:

The D60 will soon die a natural death. With the exception of a few
people
--

Click to expand...

While I hesitaite to enter into this debate I will anyway.

Do any of you recall the Sony Playstation II supply problems of two
years ago?

Here was aproduct that Sony could not get enough parts for that
would have sold 2 or 3 times what it did for the first six months
of its availability. They messed up, classic supply chain problem,
no conspiracy, no new product on the horizon, a classic forecast
and supplier capacity problem, in other words a screw up.

Fast forward to today, over 30 million PS2's sold, leading gaming
console, etc. I don't forecast the same fate for the D60, but why
not use the Occam's Razor principle- look for the simplest
solution; they screwed up? That isn't as much fun as vast
conspiracies, but it might answer the question. Oh, and there were
some early waiting lsits for the D30 and it also proved the
viability of this whole affordable CMOS DSLR market. So, it is
difficult to comapre the sales and production scheduling of an
unproven product (D30) with an improved product (D60) and also
factor in the explosive growth of digital photography. How would
any of us done at forcasting market demand, tying it to production
scheduling at an automated manufacturing facility, planning
logistics, etc?

Actually it is a nice problem to have. I doubt it will cost them
many sales and further cement people into the EOS line of lenses
and accessories

Mike Bauer

Click to expand...

Firstly I apologise for repeating any comments posted as I have not the time to read all posts.
Lets sum things up here...

1) technology has resulted in a massive slide in post processing, technique/approach is EXACTLY the same.

2) if it wasn't for competition the chase for the ultimate image capture machine would be delayed indefinately.
3) information is the fastest way to getting the end result all the sooner.

I am a devout Canon user (own D30+D60+6 lenses), no I'm not rich, in fact thanks to digital tecnology I'm as poor as a church mouse that's had its cheese pinched, but thanks to Nikon, Fuji, Sigma, Contax I can look forward to ever increasing performace bodies (life in the old lenses yet...). If competition wasn't so hot then I could be using a 1.3 megapixel point+shoot body indefinately...So come on competition, lets see a 12mp full frame 35mm body to get the blood flowing, it just maybe worth a kidney!
Keep posting, keep complaining, keep praising!

Kbone said:

Do we really know this for certain? We know that D60s are hard to
get our hands on at the moment. But we don't (at least I don't)
know how many D60s have actually been delivered to people. For all
I know there may be twice as many D60s in use as there were D30s 3
months after that camera's introduction.

Click to expand...

A few weeks back, a Canon rep told me that the demand for the D60 is much, much higher than the initial demand for the D30. He said that back when it was first released, the demand for the D30 was not that high because nobody was sure what kind of quality the CMOS sensor was going to deliver. And since it was a lot cheaper than previous D-SLRs, people weren't sure if it was a bargain, or just cheap.

And in fact, when I ordered my D30 in Dec. 2000, just after it was released, I got it the very next day. That tends to back up what he told me.

Mike

Like others I have not had the time to read all the threads but I do wonder when a lot of the members have time to take enough photographs to judge just how good their D60's are??

I have been using my D60 now for 3 months, a first step into Digital image capture. I returned two weeks ago from the Acropolis rally in Greece from an assignment where my EOS 1V HS never came out of the bag! The D60 has been ultra reliable in MEGA dusty conditions and in temps.up to 40C. The images were perfect with quality similar to shooting Velvia. The autofocus coped ok in good light, yes it would be nice to have the 45 a/f points of a 1D but in the UK the 1D is 5000 Pounds Sterling or about 7500 dollars and the D60 about half that!

As regards the loss of images from a microdrive could this be due to overheating? I was advised by another photographer to only use CF cards as the microdrive has overheating problems due to its moving parts?

Canon knows how much of a customer base it stands to loose if it were to treat buyers in the cavalier manner that has been suggested. The Canon Professional Services site is still showcasing the D60. With a direct emphasis from the company aimed at professionals it seems remote that they would be willing to endure the wrath of same by changing or ending production of the D60 within such a short timeframe.

The D60 is in big demand in the UK and stocks have been limited but to sound the death knell is a little premature.
Regards.......Paul

http://www.tpmphotosport.co.uk

Duncan Campbell said:

For what its worth I find it strange that there has been any delay
in getting the D60's to the market, the reasons are as follows

1 The D60 is not strictly a "new" camera

2 Its just a D30 with a new CMOS imager some new firmware and a
couple of minor alterations. The imager is in fact a a modular unit

3 No new production facilities would be required just a change in
a couple of components.

4 Existing stock of D30,s could probably converted

5 If I was Canon I would be trying to get as much market share as
possible before Nikon get the D100 out in free supply

Also it would be nice if Canon could have offered an upgrade path
for existing D30 owners change imager plus firmware

Click to expand...

Duncan, you make it sound like changing a few components in the D30 was all that's needed to create a D60. As someone who has been involved with one kind of consumer electronics or another for the last 12 years, I can tell you that is certainly not the case.

Yes, the D60 is based on the D30, and that no doubt has reduced the time required to bring it to market. But that doesn't mean that the differences are insigicant, or that you can easily change a few components in a D30 to upgrade it.

These aren't like desktop computers where you can change the video card and drop in a new CPU in order to improve performance. These are embedded systems that have been designed to reliably and PRECISELY deliver a particular amount of performance, and no more. These devices have to execute their firmware properly, and nothing else.

SOME of the important differences from the D30 include the following:

1) The D60 has to have at least DOUBLE the amount of buffer memory as the D30, and maybe more than that.

Even if it physically doesn't take any more room, this difference in memory size still has to be accounted for with regards to power consumption and interfacing with the rest of the system.

2) In order to process twice as much data without taking twice as long, the processors in the camera have to be that much faster. However, making an embedded system like a digital camera twice as fast is NOT as easy as with a general-purpose computer system.

For one thing, the memory access speed probably has to be increased because the processor is very unlikely to have any significant cache on board. On-board cache increases power consumption and the size of the processor, so it's usually minimal on a processor intended for a small, low-power embedded system. It doesn't do much good to increase the processor speed if it's going to be largely bottlenecked by the speed of external memory access. And it's unlikely that the original D30 design had memory with that much extra bandwidth available.

I've never heard any solid information on what kind of processors are used in the D30 and/or D60, but some digital cameras use a secondary processor to do parts of the JPEG compression. If that is the case with the D60, this part of the system would also have to increase in speed.

Increases in speed usually mean more power consumption, more heat generation, and more RF noise being output. All of these issues have to be dealt with.

3) More than anything else, the production bottleneck for the D60 is probably availability of the image sensor.

The D60's image sensor is a new part, and it is almost certainly a different semiconductor process size than the sensor in the D30. It's very likely that they are getting a lower yield per wafer than they did with the D30, at least for the moment.

It often takes several months to get production of a new semiconductor part ramped up, and in this case the sensor is designed and manufacturered directly by Canon themselves. Even if they decided to second source it with another semiconductor manufacturer, it typically takes several months to get production ramped up.

Mike

mgkaplan #79249 said:

By now the supply problem should have been solved. There is something else going on.

Click to expand...

You're absolutely on to something here... Osama has been stockpiling the D60 for quite some time now... I'm surprised that you haven't about his before now.

For every D60 he takes out of circulation, Sadam Hussein sends him $5000.

If the general public (all countries included), don't have access to digital cameras (I mean GOOD ones, like the D60, D100, etc.), before you know it, we'll all be ripe for takeover!! (And you were worried about anthrax!)

I hope that you can still find the door to the bomb shelter that you had built back in the 50's... (It's probably under the rhododendron bush in the back yard!!! Keep looking...

Man, this newsgroup is going down the porcelain hopper...

Love and kisses!

Gary Shepard
Foreside PhotoGraphics
Maine, USA

Hmmmm, Andy. Perhaps your computer screen didn't display my entire message.

-----------

"IF.....you really do have a supply problem (and no competition) why not let your retailers enjoy larger profit margins on the limited number of camera's you are able to bring to market? That didn't happen,

...Canon let out a minimum advertised price of $2,200 (for the kit) almost immediately after PMA. Again, this makes sense IF you are going to flood the market with product"
------------

Low price and no product. The whole point of my post is that Canon had an opportunity to tie down a large segment of the market, but then failed to capitalize on the moment.

Odd thoughts. Where is Phil's final report on the D100? The longer he delays, the more I'm thinking there may be something seriously wrong with the new Nikon product. This whole thing is getting curiouser and curiouser.

Fish
--
John Fisher
Fashion and Commercial Photography
http://www.johnfisher.com
305 438-9930

Studio Address:
2045 NW 1st Avenue
Miami, Florida 33127

"Demand higher than production. Obvious."

• Thats true, although that's not what I originally stated. If you read the original post I stated that the demand has been higher than what Canon expected.

"Gaining market share--well, when you have the only camera in a class it is difficult to do otherwise."

• My point exactly. People always remember the first ones to break into a market. The word and orders are around the Canon D60 not the Nikon D100. Canon could turn that around if they had a much better camera for a much better price and they have neither. Congratulations Canon.

"Speculation? "They won't however do that [new camera] until R&D is recovered and supply normalizes. " R&D "recovered" 6 months ago and moved on. "

• Are you saying that D60 R&D has been recovered 6 months ago? That would be a record for a product to recover R&D costs before it even hit the market.

"Also you claim that the d60 is successful because of pre-d100 release. "

• No, the camera is succesful because its an excelent product. They hit a home run because they released their camera way before the competition. We are not talking about this particular camera segment share gain, but also a whole class of lenses and customer return because of the glass bought and future DSLRs. Got to look at the whole picture.

More specualtion. There is no reason to think your guesses are any better than the original poster.

• Speculation, where have you been? Haven't you heard that these cameras sell like hot cakes? And do you think people are spending over 2k and paying premium if it is not a good succesful camera? Its not a guess, its a fact.

Good shooting with D60!

Alfred.

BrGabe said:

aevoegels said:

A lot of nonsense here. As many stated the camera is readily
available elsewhere and that has to do with currency. The demand
for the camera has been higher than what Canon expected. What's
happening here is that Canon is gaining market share with the D60
and its trying to do that as fast as they can (and some people
don't like to hear that), no reason to turn that down. They hit a
home run with the D60, specially because they launched it way
before Nikon. Of course Canon will have a new camera in the future
(no need to state the obvious). They won't however do that until
R&D is recovered and supply normalizes. And they probably still
have a year before The Nikon D100 does the same, since they will
try to beat Nikon again next year. The speculation on preices is
just that, a lot of speculation.

Click to expand...

Demand higher than production. Obvious. Gaining market share--well,
when you have the only camera in a class it is difficult to do
otherwise.

Speculation? "They won't however do that [new camera] until R&D is
recovered and supply normalizes. " R&D "recovered" 6 months ago
and moved on. Also you claim that the d60 is successful because of
pre-d100 release. More specualtion. There is no reason to think
your guesses are any better than the original poster.

Click to expand...

Canon products tend to work on an 18 month life cycle be it cameras photocopiers of printers. It's unlikely the D-60 will be replaced now.
There isn't much evidence to sugged that the life cycles are getting shorter.
No digital camera is perfect, if it has flaws it's no different than any other.

It's unlikely it's so flawed to warrant scrapping. The D100 will not be perfect either and in comparative tests so far, the D-60 has a small advantage in almost every respect. It's not for fear of the D100 that Canon would remove the product, it's going to be very competitive for a long time.

If it's fatally flawed they wouldn't be supplying any units as oppossed to not enough.

The suggestion is that they should increase production, but after the initial surge has dried up, the number of orders will decrease and the extra production capacity will be unnecessary. Increasing production capacity is only warranted if it can be justified by sustainable sales not a 3 month backlog.

Also, I understand that cameras are batch produced. This does put a different complection on things if true. Batch production philosophy is very different from continuous production.
There's a suggestion that cameras are like computers but this isn't true at all.

If I order a computer from Dell today and another next week, it'll be a very different machine. Dell and their ilk are assemblers, source from all over the world and the specifications of components change daily. If I buy a D-60 today or next year I expect it to be the same machine and the parts in it are mostly proprietary. The only computer that could be remotely compared to a camera is a Mac.

There is a suggestion that Canon should have a $1000 cam. Well they have, the G2, and although it may not be what you would like to see, it's the king of its sector and has been since launch. It's simply the best selling $1000 cam there is so why would they want to mess with that? They've clearly got their marketing for a $1000 camera just right. It has been in the market place for a year without replacement and despite flaws, giving further support to the 18 month life cycle.

I think you'll find that Canon are trying to supply high demand all over the world rather than just trying to satisfy the American market quickly, and globally, they probably are supplying a lot of units. It's probably better for them to create demand globally and build a global market before the competition catch up, then supply the American market and lose the advantage everywhere else. I reiterate, as long as people can wait, then they have lost nothing, especially if your costs and projections are on a batch production basis.

Better to build a strong base of new customers who will spend more money on lenses and be tied into future products.

The thing that annoys me in all this is that I was hoping to be able to pick up a dirt cheap D-30 by now. No luck.
regards
Ian

Alfred--The R&D for the d60 was finished 8 months ago and they have most certainly moved on. Just because the product is selling means nothing except that the product is selling. In this new business of digital cameras, which has such a short technology cycle, it has happened before and will happen again that a successful product, once the production run is made--is finished. The next item comes up and takes its place. Let me repeat: An item selling successfully does not mean it will not be discontinued. This is the fallacy on which everyone seems to be supporting their arguments. It is a simple-minded way of looking at a business of such magnitude. Thanks for the response.

bg

I see no reason for there to be a shortage. Something is up...

--
Have a nice day.

I think Darren has a good point. Most large businesses and government agencies (unless their functions require the latest and greatest hardware) have a 3-4+ year life-cycle of PC and server hadware. Most of the changes are components such as the CPU, more memory, motherboard, larger capacity hard drives, stuff that does not require totally new data transfer protocols, physical interfaces, and electrical specifications.

Approximately every 18 months the speed of Intel's CPU doubles (Moore's law). From time to time I gripe over the fact that we still have the 3.5" floppy disk (and drive) technology that was introduced since the mid 1980's. In terms of subsystems and functionality, the PC technology has not changed THAT drastically since 1981's IBM PC. We have faster, smaller, more power efficient, components today. I'm not sure what it means or where some folks get the 6 month computer cycle and somehow compare it with the digicam cycle. IMHO, I don't think it is a faire equal comparison.

DB

Darren Moore said:

Doug Eddleman said:

Johnnycb said:

With a Semiconductor background I agree with you 100% and have said
so on these forums before. The computer industry cycles in 6 month
cycles. These digital cameras are nothing more than a computer with
a lens attached. If Canon is manufacturing their own CMOS chips
then ramping production is not that difficult. If they are
"growing" their own silicon for the wafers then this is only a 30
day task from start to finish, unless something happened and you
have to restart the 30 growing period all over from the start.

Click to expand...

There is more involved in IC manufacturing than just the wafer
fabrication. Conception, market analysis, design, fabrication,
characterization, qualification, probe, and test are required at a
minimum. In addtion there will be some components in their camera
that are supplied by outside vendors each with the same type of
developement cycle. While a computer might cycle in 6 months, more
likely than not the develpoment cycle itself was longer than 6
months - its just that you work several generations concurrently.
While this would point to the fact that Canon is for sure working
already on the D60 replacement, they will not canabalize existing
business and waste R&D money by obsoleting a product before it
planned life cycle is finished. They would be out of business
already if they made a habit of that kind of practice. I see no
camera out there in the same class that has the potential to force
them to abandon the D60 before they are ready to.

Doug

Click to expand...

Also look at the computer industry, sure every six months you can
upgrade your computer but these are only minor upgrades usually
resulting from increasing the cpu speed, it's not a new chip. It
takes them a year or two between chips and most of these are simply
shrunk dies, the same as you'd need to do for a new higher
resolution sensor. PLus digital cameras are still relatively new,
computer manufacturers have decades of experience in production,
marketing and supply and demand to base there plans on. Sure
cameras have been about ages, but it's the electronics inside
that'll be taking the most time and that takes generations of
products to remove all the bugs, get all the features and judge the
market for such a new product.

Darren

Click to expand...

--
'Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: May they prosper who love you.' Psalm 122:6

(chuckle) ; )

DB

SteveB Ohio said:

mgkaplan said:

With the availability of the Nikon D100 and the Fuji S2, the
marketplace
now has a new set of variables as relates to the D60.

Here is what I believe will be the fate of the D60:

The D60 will soon die a natural death.

Click to expand...

Here is my prediction, and I stand behind it as being absolute
truth: The time is coming soon when the D60 will be obsolete.
OTOH, the time is soon coming when its replacement will be obsolete.

Oh, another iron-clad prediction: digital cameras will keep
getting cheaper.

Anyone care to differ? ;-)

Seriously, this is the same speculation that went on right after
the D30 was released.

IMO, there are two paths we can take: 1. Get a camera now that
has the price/performance ratio we can live with, and keep it for 4
or 5 years until the market stabilizes; or 2. Mortgage our
houses and get every new dslr that comes along until we find one
that we can't find any fault with... then kick ourselves when the
same model drops in price a month later.

--
Steve
http://home.att.net/~bishopweb/

The secret to good photography: a camera, a lens, artistic vision,
a little skill, some patience and a whole lot of luck

Click to expand...

--
'Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: May they prosper who love you.' Psalm 122:6

Hi,

mgkaplan #79249 said:

The unavailability of D60s three months ago was understandable as
it was a newly introduced product. The unavailability of D60s
today is based upon a well planned and conscious management
decision.

Click to expand...

I disagree- it's been widely known for months that global demand for the D60 was something like 5 times what Canon predicted- meaning that whatever (undoubtably considerable ) production resources they allocated to the D60, they actually needed to quadruple to have a hope of meeting demand. They are down a long way, thus a lengthy delay in getting a camera. Simple as that.

mgkaplan #79249 said:

Technology dictates that a new and improved camera is in order - NOW.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't say technology has convincingly bettered a 6 MP SLR at all. On the contrary, I think most would say the D60 is still near the leading edge of what's available whether it's pro SLRs or consumer digicams.

mgkaplan #79249 said:

Marketing dictates that a new and improved camera is in order NOW.

Click to expand...

The D60 seems to have exposed a demand far beyond what Canon expected, I don't see how that means a new camera is demanded by the market. The market just wants to be able to go into a store or surf a website and buy a D60 without any waiting. That's all.

--
Regards

Andrew McGregor

http://www.geocities.com/andrewmcgregorphotography

Andrew McGregor said:

Amac said:

The unavailability of D60s three months ago was understandable as
it was a newly introduced product. The unavailability of D60s
today is based upon a well planned and conscious management
decision.

Click to expand...

I disagree- it's been widely known for months that global demand
for the D60 was something like 5 times what Canon predicted-
meaning that whatever (undoubtedly considerable ) production
resources they allocated to the D60, they actually needed to
quadruple to have a hope of meeting demand. They are down a long
way, thus a lengthy delay in getting a camera. Simple as that.

Click to expand...

Nope. Dealers are receiving nowhere near the equivalent D60s vs D30 at the same point in the respective production schedules. In addition at the height of D30 popularity Canon were reportedly producing 10k D30s/month,, that’s 10k D60 bodies, lens mounts, mirrors, knobs, electronics,, everything except the D60's new CMOS sensor. There is absolutely no indication that Canon is producing a few hundred D60s/month let alone anywhere near what would have been expected by the D30's popularity. There have not been significant quantities of D60s shipped to any dealers.

The D60 is a mid-life kicker - a product that is a warmed over model of a previous major engineering effort (read D30 and D1 with the D1X/D1H). A mid-life kicker’s sole purpose is to extend the life of a product, thereby reaping further return on a previous R&D investment. It (a mid-life kicker) leverages existing assembly/production capabilities to maximize return. The current lack of D60 supply makes no sense and when something makes no sense follow the money..

So, either Canon is having considerable D60 CMOS production problems and/or Canon are playing some game,, and there are any number of possible games that come to mind.

Cheers,
Phred

P.S. If it is CMOS fabrication issues with a CMOS sensor the same size as that of the D30 but slightly more dense,, then there is no hope for a larger CMOS sensor (1.3x - 1.0x).

But if they are trying to maximize their return (and they have the productioin capabilities in place already) wouldn't it then make sense that, if this is only a stopgap measure, they would supply the demand as much as they can (rather than the trickle of cameras people have talked about)?

Phred said:

Andrew McGregor said:

Member said:

The unavailability of D60s three months ago was understandable as
it was a newly introduced product. The unavailability of D60s
today is based upon a well planned and conscious management
decision.

Click to expand...

I disagree- it's been widely known for months that global demand
for the D60 was something like 5 times what Canon predicted-
meaning that whatever (undoubtedly considerable ) production
resources they allocated to the D60, they actually needed to
quadruple to have a hope of meeting demand. They are down a long
way, thus a lengthy delay in getting a camera. Simple as that.

Click to expand...

Nope. Dealers are receiving nowhere near the equivalent D60s vs
D30 at the same point in the respective production schedules. In
addition at the height of D30 popularity Canon were reportedly
producing 10k D30s/month,, that’s 10k D60 bodies, lens
mounts, mirrors, knobs, electronics,, everything except the D60's
new CMOS sensor. There is absolutely no indication that Canon is
producing a few hundred D60s/month let alone anywhere near what
would have been expected by the D30's popularity. There have not
been significant quantities of D60s shipped to any dealers.

The D60 is a mid-life kicker - a product that is a warmed over
model of a previous major engineering effort (read D30 and D1 with
the D1X/D1H). A mid-life kicker’s sole purpose is to extend
the life of a product, thereby reaping further return on a previous
R&D investment. It (a mid-life kicker) leverages existing
assembly/production capabilities to maximize return. The current
lack of D60 supply makes no sense and when something makes no sense
follow the money..

So, either Canon is having considerable D60 CMOS production
problems and/or Canon are playing some game,, and there are any
number of possible games that come to mind.

Cheers,
Phred

P.S. If it is CMOS fabrication issues with a CMOS sensor the same
size as that of the D30 but slightly more dense,, then there is no
hope for a larger CMOS sensor (1.3x - 1.0x).

Click to expand...

JT, Phred has not attempted to explain the mystery, he is only accurately reporting the facts. There is no explanation why Canon has limited production, but to say (as many have) that they have produced a lot of cameras (no they didn't) but were overwhelmed by demand (no they weren't), or that this is a normal ramp up delay (no, the D30/60 is a mature product with no ramp up involved) is simply ignoring the facts.

An inability to produce the 6 MP CMOS imager may be the reason (certainly that would explain the lack of product), and that may explain why the rumored CMOS 1D with the bigger imager (remember Paul Pope back in November?) never made it to market. However, as Phred says rightly, this also means that it may be a long time (if ever) before we see a physically larger CMOS imager.

I don't minimize the issues involved here. Nikon opened the door to Canon many years ago when they made a terrible technical blunder with the F4/F5 cameras. By insisting on supporting their older technology lenses Nikon locked themselves into a losing engineering strategy which Canon has exploited ever since. Ultimately this has meant that as Canon's percentage of the professional market has grown, so has Canon's commitment to design and market an ever larger number of truly superior lenses (prior to the introduction of the EOS 1, Nikon owned the lens business). I'm selfish, I have shot with Canon for eighteen years, I want/need those better lenses, so I want Canon to succeed.

As an example of what is in play, a marginal lens manufacturer (Sigma) is bringing to market a new technology digital camera (Foveon chip) which only supports Sigma lenses. Obviously (at least to me), Sigma is bidding to repeat Canon's success with the EOS series cameras, and become a real player at the high end of the business (which because of your improved reputation makes you a bigger player at the consumer level). Nikon may hope to re-establish themselves as the dominant high end manufacturer (although this mantra of supporting lenses no one uses anymore seems to still be in place). After eighteen years as a Canon shooter, I simply want Canon to remain in the mix.

Not aimed at you, JT, but I am tired of reading that Canon needs that garbage AF/metering system on the D30/60 to maintain product differentiation from the 1D. Build quality is what separates cameras at this level. The Nikon F100 and EOS 3 have more features than the F5 and EOS 1v but sell for half the price. Professionals pay for build quality over the last little tweaking of the gee whiz feature set (adequate auto focus and metering are not gee whiz in a $2,000+ camera).

Something is wrong with the marketing/delivery of the D60, this whole thing hasn't passed the smell test for three months now. Phred is only pointing out the obvious. Now, anyone want to speculate on why Phil hasn't posted his final review of the Nikon D100? This gets curiouser and curiouser.

Fish

--
John Fisher
Fashion and Commercial Photography
http://www.johnfisher.com
305 438-9930

Studio Address:
2045 NW 1st Avenue
Miami, Florida 33127