Convince me to K10D vs Canon XSi

If Low Light, High ISO is your "thing" then the K10 is Not your "thing" - that’s as honest an answer as I can give, anyone who says differently is lying to you.

Do you have the opportunity to take identical Photos with each Camera?. If you do then I would suggest you do and let the results make your decision for you.

The K10 is a great camera that just needs a little to much help for everyday PICS. I "Love / Loved" mine, but the more I use it the more I am thinking of getting rid of it.

Let me clear about what I mean. I love the way it handles, It's ergonomics, It's Customization, but in the End, What good is all the above if the Image quality suffers. The More I use it, under anything other then P&S conditions the less it meets the expectations I had for it. I know this sounds harsh but the proof is in the results.

If you are not 100% committed to RAW this cam is not for you. Landscape photos with the kit lens and JPEG look like Murky water colors. I had hopes a better lens would help this condition, but this has not been the case. It seems the culprit is the JPEG engine, In cam sharpening does not help, bright mode dose not help. Only shooting Raw with Very high levels of sharpening applied PP will add back some definition to the mush.

Obviously I am Not a Fan Of RAW, but when you buy a Mid Level DSLR, Regardless of popular opinion on Forums that say, you SHOULD use RAW and PP every PIC. If you MUST use RAW to get acceptable results then DON’T have the camera default to JPEG. In fact, why even offer JPEG!

My opinion is, if a 100$ P&S cam can give you better then Avg JPEGS, there is no reason the K10 Can't

The metering leaves a lot to be desired, even with the DA lenses, Try to use one of the great older manual lenses and you will wear out the shutter trying to get properly exposed PICS, especially in bright sunlight. Every F-stop with a manual lens can vary as much as 5 stops under exposed to 5 stops over exposed, depending on Lighting conditions ! What works one day, Wont the next, unless ALL conditions are Identical. If you Don’t shoot in a controlled lighting studio or shoot test charts all day The K10 and Manual Lenses will be an exorcize in futility. Which is infuriating, because the Manual Lens Comparability was one of the main reasons I chose the K10.

And let's not forget The White Balance, Whose accuracy is all over the map, even in full sunlight, And the archaic way to simply do a One touch White balance, which if you shoot in ever changing light conditions #and DON"T like RAW# is a pain in the ass to do.

Had I realized just how bad the JPEG engine is, or more to the point, Just how much PP all the online photos you see on forums and review sites actually had done to them, when all the usual suspects claimed none was added, I would have thought Long and hard about the K10.

Just today I stumbled across an ovscure review of the K10 that previously slipped unde rmy radar, and his findings are spot on and oddly enough match up with most of mine -

http://www.photographyreview.com/cat/cameras/digital-cameras/digital-slrs/pentax/PRD_385737_3127crx.aspx?TabID=2

Caveat Emptor!
 
The metering leaves a lot to be desired, even with the DA lenses, Try to use > one of the great older manual lenses and you will wear out the shutter trying to > get properly exposed PICS, especially in bright sunlight.
Now this statement is for sure not my experience. With my old manual 50mm f1.7 prime I just push the green button on top of my GX10 and the camera sets the proper exposure.

I have been a dSLR shooter for only 8 months before that I owned the Prosumer Kodak P880, a highly regarded camera for its IQ in jpeg. I had some fears about buying the GX10 and my first post to this forum was about the soft jpegs, and of course the responses where no problem.

Ok 8 months latter I am a die hard fanboy because the GX10 has exceeded my expectations. I will try to post a couple full size untouched jpegs for your review latter and add IMO how I like the GX10, remember its a little different than the K10 and I have a review that shows it has lower high iso noise versus the K10. Samsung also made the jpegs a bit different. To be honest the made the jpegs and NR more consumer friendly versus the K10. You can download the K10 versus GX10 review here, and it shows the lower high iso noise. Other cameras like the Canon or K20 may serve you better if you do only jpeg and high iso noise is the most important factor, because even with the GX10 at iso1600 there is a lot of detail but I like to use Noise Ninja on the files to give them that crisp clean look, so if PP is not your thing... but if you can get one for a great price...

See the February 07 issue of Digital SLR User. There is a small fee to download the "back issue" that's the only way to get to the review.

http://www.dslruser.co.uk/infusions/articles/readarticle.php?article_id=51

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jamesm007

http://s195.photobucket.com/albums/z77/jamesm700/
 
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Are you saying the Samsung version of the K10 meters correctly with Full Manual "M" Model SMC lenses? This is news to me.

When you say Your 1.7 is manual, Does it have the "A" setting on the aperture ring too?

Can you check how that lens meters in aperture mode, center weighted, 50mm, F5.6, ISO 200 compared to the Kit lens or any other DA lens you have that is capable of the 50mm focal range?

Basically what I am asking is What Shutter speed does the Samsung calculate with both 50mm lenses attached, And ALL other setting manually entered and locked in?
Thanks
 
When you say Your 1.7 is manual, Does it have the "A" setting on the aperture > ring too?
No "A" on the ring you can only set the aperture by turning the ring on the lens 1.7,2.8,4,5.6,8,16 then push the green button on top of the K10/GX10 and the camera will set the shutter speed according to the iso you have set. You must be in manual mode for this to work.

I can not check my camera because it went in for repair, and is in the exchange process. However this does not lead me to believe its an unreliable camera, I took 38,000 pics in 8 months and probably got the bottom left of the bell curve for 100,000 shots rated (bad luck). The actuator went bad if anyone knows what that is because I don't.

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jamesm007

http://s195.photobucket.com/albums/z77/jamesm700/
 
Interesting,

If your Samsung, K10 knock off meters correctly and does not under / overexpose with a Fully Manual lens then, either EVERY Pentax’s k10 is missing Hardware or Software to allow them to do the same. And / Or they are all broken.

My K10 does not meter accurately with an "M" Lens green Button Combination. The closest it gets is 2 stops and that depends on F-stop, ISO setting and current light.

As far as I know, Nobodies K10 meters correctly with "M" Lenses, this is evidenced by the 100s of posts on this and other Forums, describing this anomaly. Even though Pentax’s Claims "Compatibility with Older "M" Lenses. On all it's DSLR's to date.

Thanks for the Tip that somehow The Samsung Model is immune to this Malfunction
 
As far as I know, Nobodies K10 meters correctly with "M" Lenses,
Mine does. Works fine. Always has. I use it a lot like that.

I just checked it with two different lenses, one M and one A, with the A in both Av mode (using the A setting) and full manual mode (using the aperture ring), and the M obviously in manual with the aperture ring; all three shots at f/2.8 pointing at the same flat grey surface. Metered the exact same shutter speed every time.

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http://flickr.com/photos/stewartpratt/
 
When my FZ50 was stolen, I upgraded to a DSLR for a variety of reasons. I chose the K100Dsuper over the K10D based on both price and low light performance. I'm very tempted by the K20D now that they're going for around $800 if you shop around.

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Shooting in JPEG is like taking your roll of film to the store to be processed, and when you get your prints, throwing away the negatives.
photos at http://flickr.com/ellarsee
 
And the Plot Thickens!
Can you try it pointing at a real Life type subject, Maybe in natural light?
Was the ISO and metering set the same for each shot as well?
Perhaps you can try it with a "DA" lens and the " M" lens this time?

with the Mode set to manual, the ISO locked at 200, the Aperture locked at 5.6 and the metering set to Center, and see what the results are?.
When I do this I get anywhere from 2 to 5 shutter speeds difference.

And according to every post other then yours and the person before you, The "M" lenses will not meter correctly on the K10.

There is a Half Cocked idea that changing a "focusing screen" will help them neter correctly, But I have yet to try this and Don't Feel I should have to replace parts to get the K10 to do, what every previous Pentax DSLR was capable of doing.
Thanks
 
If you can, get your hands on both of them. One will feel like a toy in comparison to the other...

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Roger
 
I find the XSi jpeg to be lacking texture in this picture:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/XSI/FULLRES/XSIINBI0100.HTM

Compare it to the K200 jpeg:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/K200D/FULLRES/K200DINBI0100.HTM

The K200 uses the same sensor as the K10. The K10 default setting for jpeg is set to "Natural" so it looks much softer than the K200 which is set to "Bright". But like all DSLR you can change the image settings to your preference. I'm pretty sure the XSi image can be fine-tuned too, so I think it is best to try them both and see which one handles better. For some people the difference in build-quality, ergonomics and weight can be a deal-breaker. For some, not so much.
 
OK if it helps you any I put four full size jpegs with full exif and no PP on my album for you to download if you wish. They are large about 4mb each. All are with my Sigma 17-70mm and various settings in the camera, but again no PP. I did not chose them for artistic value I chose them for an example of outdoor normal everyday jpegs I get, with a good range of color and contrast.

You may read of underexposed pics with the K10/GX10, well I can pretty much leave the exposure alone and not worry. The K10/GX10 or at least mine does seem to try 'not to' blow out the highlights, if you look at the jpegs its like someone just slid the brightness setting down enough to let most of the highlights come through with out being too dark.

On my album below the first 4 pics before the cat are the full size pics, if you dont have highspeed, dont click on them. Better to click on a compressed file.
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jamesm007

http://s195.photobucket.com/albums/z77/jamesm700/
 
And the Plot Thickens!
No, I really was shocked when I read what you wrote. You can look back at all my posts and find when I bought my Sears 50mm 1:1.7 for $10 on eBay, it had a bent filter ring, no one bid, I got it, fixed it with some pliers in 5 seconds. And was blown away by its sharpness. However you will never find a post with me complaining about exposure.

I believe what you write as your IMO so I looked into this and indeed find I am one of a few I guess that can use the green button from f1.7 to f16 and the camera is spot on every time, no exposure over/under. I also won a Quantray 75-200 f4.5 that worked no problem with the green button, it had poor CA/PF so I took it apart for fun. So I assumed because lots of Pentax folks like old primes they work great. Un-less someone would like to chime in, I assume this is a problem. Why am I not affected?

So also assuming the other poster is also telling the truth, I have no answer as to why some do, some don't, other than to say I am telling the truth and I am surprised at what I found.

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jamesm007

http://s195.photobucket.com/albums/z77/jamesm700/
 
And the Plot Thickens!
Can you try it pointing at a real Life type subject, Maybe in natural
light?
Not for a while, no - I only see natural light out of the office window at the moment :) But light is light, and artificial light is more controlled, so it should be a more reproducible test. I'll have a go in due course anyway.
Was the ISO and metering set the same for each shot as well?
Yes, of course :)
Perhaps you can try it with a "DA" lens and the " M" lens this time?
with the Mode set to manual, the ISO locked at 200, the Aperture
locked at 5.6 and the metering set to Center, and see what the
results are?.
Ok, will do. Though I can't imagine a single reason the DA (I only have the kit) would affect the metering, since the only difference is the imaging circle - and that varies as you zoom, so if it affected metering then the kit lens would be unusable for metering with.
When I do this I get anywhere from 2 to 5 shutter speeds difference.
Not that I do a direct comparison often, but I've certainly never noticed any metering being off. I would hope 2 stops would be noticeable at a glance let alone 5.
And according to every post other then yours and the person before
you, The "M" lenses will not meter correctly on the K10.
I'm sure I've seen some in the past that say it's fine. I've seen a lot which say it isn't, of course, but I don't think they've all said that.

(rummages around)

Ok, from the first page of search results, one here,
http://www.flickr.com/groups/k10d/discuss/72157601927729023/?search=metering
and two here,
http://www.flickr.com/groups/k10d/discuss/72157605351252261/?search=metering

Oh - and James above, I now notice :)

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http://flickr.com/photos/stewartpratt/
 
You should go to a store and hold both models, to see what feels right for you. We will not convince you to do one thing over the other; you should get what fits you.

As others have mentioned, the Canon XSI is an entry-level camera. Whereas the Pentax K10 is a semi-Pro level. The Pentax will have vast options that either doesn’t exist in the XSI, or are disabled. If you’re very new to the features of a DSLR, maybe the Canon will be the easier choice for you. It is more of a foolproof camera.

Probably jpeg output straight out of the camera, might be better on the XSI. The K10 really shines when shooting RAW. (I had fun with JPEG the first year of use, and have fine shots with it, but I see the improvement with RAW). I often shoot indoor at Iso 1250 with my K10, don’t know if the XSI can split Iso, I would doubt it.

I switch to Tungsten White Balance when indoor, and use All White Balance when outdoor. The Canon is easier to use with standard white balance set most of the time (to the critical eye, this is not a perfect option though), but it is a deliberate choice by Pentax.

The Pentax SMC-A 28mm F2.8, is a fine lens. I have used an old manual focus A-series 35/2.8 lens, and have had zero problems with exposure.

I have very little experience with PP, I just use the RAW converter that came with the camera.

With JPEG, it is just to tweak the output, and do custom setting that you like the output from. The standard is not oversharpened, oversaturated, (what some call plastic colours), which is more the Canon entry-level trademark.

I recommended the Rebel Xsi to a friend of mine, he will not take the time to really find out what the camera can do. He just wants it to work, with zero effort. K10 is a photographers camera, for a P&S upgrader, the XSI is more of a no-brainer.
Neil Morgan wrote:
Please look here - http://www.flickr.com/photos/bob_west/
Great link and beautiful shots, thanks

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kind regards
Sune



“The new 14.6 MP Samsung/Pentax sensor is for real. Noise is admirably low'
K20D AnandTech Review
 
I actually ended up with an Olympus E510. Mainly because the store I was going to visit sold them out and it was very hard to locate one at low price anywhere. Also the E510 two-lens kit was being offered at around $450 with accessories. It's a shame because I really liked the ergonomics of the K10D, but I just didn't feel the K20D nor the K200D is the bargain the K10D was, although they still are great cameras.

I became sad during my hunt for the K10D/GX10 because one of the dealers told me that many dealers just don't want to carry Pentax anymore because they were having extremely tough time selling K20D and K200D. I have a soft spot for the brand and hope the KM would attract some new customers.
 
And the Plot Thickens!
Can you try it pointing at a real Life type subject, Maybe in natural
light?
Was the ISO and metering set the same for each shot as well?
Perhaps you can try it with a "DA" lens and the " M" lens this time?
with the Mode set to manual, the ISO locked at 200, the Aperture
locked at 5.6 and the metering set to Center, and see what the
results are?.
When I do this I get anywhere from 2 to 5 shutter speeds difference.
OK keep in mind that the metering is center weighted and you can also have it set to link metering and focus point, (The center focus point is the only one activated when using Manual Focus lenses FYI!) which essentially makes it a tight spot meter. If you have a bright spot the first time and dark spot the second time you will get a different meter reading. Also keep in mind that if you have your EV COMP set for 1/3 stops rather than 1/2, you will get the shutter speed to change 3 times for 1 stop difference. So 2 shutter speeds different is one stop, 5 is 2.5 stops. I am a all manual, no A on the aperture ring shooter 100% of the time. It is easy, either with my Nieces K10 or my K200

JAKIE you are seeming a little negative at times, sorry you feel frustrated, but keep in mind that DSLR is about giving you the control and the meter is just a tool. I often go way off the reservation with my settings compared with the meter depending on what I want properly exposed. And yes Damn the Highlights expose for the shadows is OK at times.

Happy Shooting.

Lloyd
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Scotty... Beam me up NOW! It just ate my phaser!!

http://lloydshell.blogspot.com/
 
I actually ended up with an Olympus E510. Mainly because the store I
was going to visit sold them out and it was very hard to locate one
at low price anywhere. Also the E510 two-lens kit was being offered
at around $450 with accessories. It's a shame because I really liked
the ergonomics of the K10D, but I just didn't feel the K20D nor the
K200D is the bargain the K10D was, although they still are great
cameras.

I became sad during my hunt for the K10D/GX10 because one of the
dealers told me that many dealers just don't want to carry Pentax
anymore because they were having extremely tough time selling K20D
and K200D. I have a soft spot for the brand and hope the KM would
attract some new customers.
Congratulations, you're gonna have a lot of fun; the E510 is a fine camera. Just the right size, and some really good optics. I would recommend it over the Rebel. Oly should waterproof their mid-model series, and they would have one sweet package. Now, don't worry about brands any more, and go get the photos.

You shouldn't worry about what store clerks say, they seldom know much, and just try to forward their own products. In a few minutes I caught one seller in 5 major mistakes about his product. And this was not even a discount store.

There was a test, which put Oly below Pentax when it came to low light. But I think it matters little, one can always learn how to optimize performance; and maybe get a flash for AF assist; and then I'm sure the E-series is gonna do fine here.
The kit lens will also be better than the Canon.

--
kind regards
Sune



“The new 14.6 MP Samsung/Pentax sensor is for real. Noise is admirably low'
K20D AnandTech Review
 
I'm highly interested in available-light
photography so I have to put a lot of emphasis on the low-light
performance of the camera.
I'd go for the XSi... The camera is almost 2 generations younger than the K10D and it shows in its noise levels, which will be a problem if you shoot live action in low light. Its AF is also better in low light.

However, if you shoot night landscape (or any low light photography on a tripod), you'll probably like the weather sealing and the SR. The weather seals were the main reason I bought the K10D: so I could shoot outside no matter the weather.

I made pics in snow storm, in pounding rain and in dusty places. I also do some time-lapse photography, which means my K10D can spend hours outside in the humid air. Until now, I've been more than satisfied.

But don't put too much emphasis on the old MF lenses. I have eight old lenses and I only use two of them on an occasional basis now...

The reason? Well... since I've discoverd autofocus with the K10D, I must say it is very convenient indeed! lol

(Good film-era AF lenses however, can be a very good reason to invest in a K10D, IMHO.)

So here it is:

K10D: an "older" DSLR with lower high ISO and AF performance, but cheaper and a lot sturdier. Plus an in-body stabilisation system.

XSi: a "younger" DLSR with the latest noise reduction algorithms and a quick AF, but more expensive and probably not as durable as the K10D.

My two cents. Hope it helps...

--
Once you've mastered the technique and the equipment, you can concentrate on
the more important aspects of photography: originality, atmosphere, emotion
and — ultimately — soul.
— Jeff
 

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