e510, LR2.0 and 14-54mm = Confused about Sharpness

larryk10d

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Hello:

I am not sure what’s going on but the last time I shot my e-510, I was using Lightroom 1.3 and the kit lenses.

I went to Italy with my Olympus 14-54mm shooting in RAW, then using
Lightroom 2.0 and the pictures don’t seem sharp and crisp.

I don’t know where to begin to see what went wrong.

I know I had IS-1 on in the Italy pictures although it never kicked in since I was outdoors. Not sure if that makes a difference. If I have IS-1 on, and it's low light, I hear it run. So, by having it on in perfect light conditions, not sure if that effects the photo.

Italy with 14-54mm





San Fran with kit





Thanks,
Larry
 
a touch of shake softness - the others look fine but quite frankly it's impossible to be judgemental at this size.

IS isn't going to be detrimental here - unless it's switched off in image 1! can't tell though because for some reason the exif data for IS is missing from the metadata. very strange - what firmware are you on for the 510?

IS isn't a guarantee and still needs good technique. overall I don't know why you shot at those settings (F11) and that shutter speed (i/8th) for that shot anyway - but these things happen (and should end up in the bin)

--
  • enjoy your camera equipment -
 
--
Firmware Body 1.3
Lens 1.1

As to the 1/8th - I think I was shooting in Aperture Priority.

I placed the camera on 200 ISO.

So, the 1/8th was calulated by the camera.

I put it on F11 because I was reading that's a safe F-stop.

Did I do something wrong?
 
Safe for what? You should select what aperture you need per photo and for what effect. Decide what it is you are actually shooting and how much front-to-back (depth of field) sharpness you need, and adjust accordingly. Then (if you are in aperture priority) let the camera decide/suggest a shutter speed. If you think it's too slow or fast, then someone has to compromise!
-

I put it on F11 because I was reading that's a safe F-stop.

Did I do something wrong?
--
http://www.argyllphotos.com
 
--
Firmware Body 1.3
Lens 1.1

As to the 1/8th - I think I was shooting in Aperture Priority.

I placed the camera on 200 ISO.

So, the 1/8th was calulated by the camera.

I put it on F11 because I was reading that's a safe F-stop.

Did I do something wrong?
The great thing about 4/3 lenses is that almost all of them are very sharp wide open, and don't need to be stopped down. Some lenses offer increased sharpness (some may be minimal) when stopped down 1-2 stops from wide open. On the 14-54mm, this would mean stopping down from f/2.8 to f/5.6 (f/2.8--> f/4.0--> f/5.6). Theoretically the 14-54mm is sharpest between f/4 and f/5.6, which is what I've found in practice as well. By f/8, a phenomenon called "diffraction" starts to reduce the perceived sharpness of the lense. By f/11, diffraction is taking it's toll on the image, and by f/16 it becomes very noticeable. At f/22 it is extremely evident, especially on the 14-54mm from past experience on the E-1.

f/5.6 is my "working aperture." All my shots stay at f/5.6 unless other things become more necessary, such as increased depth of field. At 14mm, f/8 is going to give you plenty of DOF for any landscape shot, and for most other shots except semi-macro or close up.

You should be watching the shutter speed and adhere to the 1/FOV rule, where the FOV is equal to twice the focal length. This means at wide angle, nothing less than 1/30s. Once you master this, then start playing with the IS-1 mode and see how much it can or will help.

--
Tim
'Be the change you wish to see in the world.' -Mahatma Gandhi
E3/E410/7-14/12-60/50-200/50/EC-14/C8080
http://www.flickr.com/photos/timskis6/
 
Some hints for LR2 sharpening. For most photos, start out with sharpening of 25, radius 1.0, masking of 0, and detail of 25. Depending on the photo, you can increase the sharpness from 25 to 45-75, or whatever looks good.

If you zoom in to a 1:1 view, you can hold down the Ctrl key while moving the masking slider to see which areas will be sharpened versus which will be protected. Very useful.

--
Tim
'Be the change you wish to see in the world.' -Mahatma Gandhi
E3/E410/7-14/12-60/50-200/50/EC-14/C8080
http://www.flickr.com/photos/timskis6/
 
--

I'm new to high end cameras and was reading "Aperture Priority" by Bryan Peterson and he said F11 was a safe aperture to make sure everything is sharp in the picture and explains why. That's where I got it from...

I assume it depends on your camera too which he did not go into that detail.
 
safe for what?

on 43rds f11 is already getting close to the diffraction limit limit for most lenses - staying at f8 as a working maximum (ie a figure to think long and hard about if you really need to go higher) is much 'safer'. however the sofness here is not diffraction effects.

by trading so much of your shutter speed for aperture (and therefore depth of field which I guess is what you are meaning with 'safe') you have risked the sharpness of the whole image ie everything is in focus but it's all soft

working guidelines would have you using a shutter speed of 1/60th as a maximum for the 27mm focal length you were using. With IS 1 and a bit of care 1/30th should be fine, 1/15th alright most of the time and 1/8th alright some of the time - not this time though (if it was on here).

I downloaded the image into Olympus Master as well as using various exif viewers, but whilst my IS is shown for both 510 and E3 yours isn't. Neither is the lens detail or the firmware - but most of the rest appears (hence my question re firmware).

--
  • enjoy your camera equipment -
 
--
What F-stop would you use for a scenic background - rolling hills?

From what I been reading it's F22 but it seems now that it depends on the camera and lens.
 
the real issue is what's your foreground - or better still where's your foreground!

typically rolling hills shots will have nothing in the first 30ft as an example.

the next issue as you say the lens focal length and then the aperture.

these latter two, on the same camera type, will have a fixed 'hyperfocal distance'. You will find this referred to in your book and it's important for landscapes.

as a working example - with that focal length (27mm) on a 43rds body - the hyperfocal distances are as follows

f=11 14ft
f=8 20ft
f=5.6 28ft
f=3.5 46ft

these mean that if you set that aperture, on that lens at that focal length, then focus on something at that distance - everything from half that distance to infinity will be 'in focus' with in the dof

putting the two things above together, if you have foreground objects at 14 ft you could use f5.6 and focus at 28ft to get 'everything' in focus.

as the focal length increases so do these distances - go 'wide' and they decrease really fast (14mm at f5.6 gives an HD of 7ft (3.5ft to infinity).

hope this helps

--
  • enjoy your camera equipment -
 
The first image is camera shake at 1/8 second. All image were shot at f11 and have been softened by diffraction. F11 is not needed on a 4/3 format camera to get adequate DOF in anything but macro shots. You would have gotten much better results shooting f4-5.6 and taking advantage of the fact that your lenses are sharp wide open.

--
Good Shooting,

English Bob
 
--Theoretically the 14-54mm is sharpest between f/4 and f/5.6, which is what > > I've found in practice as well. By f/8, a phenomenon called "diffraction" starts > > to reduce the perceived sharpness of the lense. By f/11, diffraction is taking > > it's toll on the image, and by f/16 it becomes very noticeable. At f/22 it is > > extremely evident, especially on the 14-54mm from past experience on the E-> > 1.
Yes, I think that's what I need to understand more. If there is diffraction at f/22 with the gear I'm using, then when I was learning about photography and read if I want everything to be in focus use f/22 - is wrong.

I just have to understand what f-stop to use during shooting.
 
you wouldn't.........unless someone was holding a loaded gun to your head!

I was shooting some macro shots earlier and it is so so tempting to go up to the smallest aperture to get some depth of field.....but over f16 it's unacceptable so I shot 5 layers at f11 and created a focus stack instead.

F8 is OK, F11 is useable, F16 is painfull and only for things like waterfall shots where you want softness in the water and have no other way to slow the shutter speed.

I actually have f44 available on one macro lens......haven't even tested that one!

--
  • enjoy your camera equipment -
 
--
Then when would you use f/22 with the 14-54mm?
I agree with photo_owl in the above post. I wouldn't choose f/22 for any application unless I had absolutely no other choice. In most scenarios you can plan ahead to remedy the use of f/22 - for example using an ND filter with a tripod for longer shutter speeds at wider apertures.

The information you've been previously reading regarding f/22 and landscapes is more applicable for 35mm film or 35mmFF digital - if you don't know what the latter is, don't worry about it, but it's not Olympus's realm.

For wide angle shots at 12-14mm I always use f/5.6 to f/8 to get everything in focus. In rare occasions when the foreground is very, very close I'll choose f/11, but that is a rare occurrence.

In cases where you absolutely require smaller apertures for greater DOF (such as when using an extension tube), I still don't go past f/11-f/16. f/22 is pretty much a "no-no" for Olympus, except for posting small ebay pictures to the web.

--
Tim
'Be the change you wish to see in the world.' -Mahatma Gandhi
E3/E410/7-14/12-60/50-200/50/EC-14/C8080
http://www.flickr.com/photos/timskis6/
 
You're on the right track here.

What you actually need to understand is the whole idea behind exposure. It's a set of three variables, and the effects of those variables.

I'll explain this for the 4/3 system so it's not confusing - there are minor differences in depth of field (DOF) only.

Your three basic variables are:

1. Shutter Speed
2. Aperture
3. ISO Sensitivity

And the effects of those variables:

1. Shutter Speed - high speed (eg: 1/1000 s) = less light, faster exposure (less motion blur from either camera or subject movement). Low speed (eg: 1/8 s) = more light, slower exposure (lets light in over longer time; allows for or can cause motion blur from both subject and camera movement during that time!).

2. Aperture - Wide aperture (eg: f/2.8) = more light let in (allows for faster shutter speeds with less light - this is why lenses with wider apertures like f/2 are called "fast") - and causes less depth of field. Small aperture (eg: f/16) = less light (slower shutter speeds), and more depth of field. Note that DOF is increased on 4/3 because of the smaller sensor.

3. ISO Sensitivity - High ISO has the effect of allowing more light to be received on the sensor, allowing for either faster shutter speed, or narrower aperture, or both. The tradeoff is Noise.

So, all of these variables have to be manipulated based on your desired effect and the conditions of the scene. The first step is understanding what they all are used for, and what they do to the image.

The only thing that's different about 4/3 is that the basic aperture is going to be wider for the same DOF. So, as you were saying, some people recommend f/11 for general photography. This was good for film lenses, but for 4/3 and other digital SLR's, it's not necessary or optimal. On a 4/3 camera you can get that kind of depth of field at around f/8 or even f/5.6, so that's more optimal. BUT - remember that photography is all about these exposure variables, and you should change them based on what you need.

A basic idea of exposure is to focus on one variable that's important for the shot and change the others to achieve that.

For example, you generally want a fast shutter speed, around 1/(2 times the focal length) seconds, to avoid blur from camera shake (eg: for shooting at 54mm, you want at least 1/100s). You only want a slower speed if you want motion to be captured for effect, or, well, if you absolutely have to because there just isn't enough light. In that case, IS is helpful, but should not be trusted 100% - a high shutter speed is always better. To get a high speed, you have to alter some other variables - you can lower the aperture (eg: go from f/8 to f/3.5) or increase the ISO sensitivity (bump it to ISO400 or so).

For another example, say you really want everything in the scene to be in focus. So, you probably want the aperture between f/8 and f/11 (max), depending on the subject distance (someone else posted a nice table of hyperfocal distances - that's a good thing to keep in mind). So, you set your aperture, then figure out, okay, what shutter speed do I need to keep this shot sharp, and say you have 1/8s showing. Hmm, but you need it faster. So you have to increase the ISO to 800 to get up to 1/60s, which is acceptable for your focal length of say, 18mm with IS on. Then you can take the shot and are pretty much "safe." You could also compromise a little on the aperture if you don't want the noise of ISO800. Say you lower it to f/4 instead of f/8. Then you can use a much lower ISO, ISO200, and still get the same shutter speed. (math is not accurate, but that's the idea). At f/4 you might get some blur in the background, but say your subject is pretty far away, so you probably won't.

In general, you should stay away from apertures above f/11. In 4/3 they cause diffraction, which is the interference of light with itself as it passes through a hole (such as a tiny aperture). The smaller the hole, the more diffraction, and this results in a loss of sharpness in the image. However - this is an effect that is to be understood, not a hard-set rule. Sometimes you may want a small aperture to, for example, have something both 1 foot and 30 feet from the camera be in focus at the same time. The only way to achieve that may be at f/22, so the diffraction effects are a moot point, they come with the effect whether you like it or not, just like how noise comes with high ISO.

Lastly, say you want a blurred background. This prioritizes a low f-stop, since f/2 or f/3.5 (wide apertures) or so will give nice blur to the background for close subjects. This means you're letting more light in, so you're generally okay with the lowest ISO (ISO 100) and a high shutter speed (which is usually good!). Shutter speed in this case is often not a concern since the camera can do up to 1/4000s which is a pretty wide range of exposure, but in bright sunlight, often you can't shoot at f/2 because it will still overexpose at 1/4000s. You have to 'stop down' to f/4, f/5.6 just to be able to take the shot, and then you sacrifice your shallow depth of field. This is what ND filters are - they darken the image without changing aperture, allowing you to lower the shutter speed in bright situations while keeping the aperture wide.

So, safe is very relative. It's all about changing the variables of exposure for the amount of light you have and the photograph you want to capture. That's what photography is all about. There is no "magic number" for shutter speed, ISO, or aperture, even though there are guidelines. Each of them will affect the image in different ways and are all useful tools that must be understood well, both their effects and their trade offs.

Feel free to ask questions if you like! Sorry this was so long, but I hope it is helpful to someone.

--
'There's nothing worse than a brilliant image of a fuzzy concept' Ansel Adams
(Equipment in Profile)
 
Hello Everyone..............Interesting discussion, but I do have one question on a point that (I don't think) anyone addressed.

I have the e-510. I've always assumed when IS was on, it was on and always operative. I'm zeroing in on the thought that IS "kicks in". Is that true?

I know that when I've tested the IS using the test button I hear it working. Its an obvious sound. The IS can even be felt in the camera body as a light "vibration" of sorts. It was an obvious noise and feeling I'd never heard or felt before. I've never heard or felt, what I heard and felt while testing IS, at any time while taking pics in any shooting condition. Can anyone verify how it should work.

Thanks,
Tom
 
Hello Everyone..............Interesting discussion, but I do have one
question on a point that (I don't think) anyone addressed.

I have the e-510. I've always assumed when IS was on, it was on and
always operative. I'm zeroing in on the thought that IS "kicks in".
Is that true?

I know that when I've tested the IS using the test button I hear it
working. Its an obvious sound. The IS can even be felt in the camera
body as a light "vibration" of sorts. It was an obvious noise and
feeling I'd never heard or felt before. I've never heard or felt,
what I heard and felt while testing IS, at any time while taking pics
in any shooting condition. Can anyone verify how it should work.
Certainly.

IS in the 510 (and all Olympus SLRs with IS) only operates during the exposure.

You can hear it when you take a long exposure (like > 1/4 second) and when you hold the IS button in Live View, but on quick normal exposures you probably won't hear or feel anything as the IS noise is masked out by the mirror and shutter noises.

This is normal. You will generally not hear the IS working other than in long-exposure conditions, but it still works on every shot.

This is considered a "disadvantage" of in-body IS, because you cannot see it working in the viewfinder. I disagree. IS that only operates during the exposure likely saves battery and allows for engineering a noisier (and possibly more efficient) device since it's not on all the time. You will not see it or hear it all the time, but it's there and works.

--
'There's nothing worse than a brilliant image of a fuzzy concept' Ansel Adams
(Equipment in Profile)
 

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