Help, please! Thoughts on F707 problems

HelenPB · Jul 2, 2002

More in the continuing saga of Betts vs. Sony Japan:

Sony fixed my F707's DLSS beautifully -- absolutely flawless. They modified my tripod so I could use it. They got Landscape mode to work pretty well. But I still find that Auto mode is overexposing shots in general and in particular all closeups and macros.

The head of Sony Okinawa heard that I was planning to bring the camera in yet again to see if they could fix this overexposure problem, but when I talked to him this morning, he informed me that Sony has decided to either exchange the F707 for another one, or refund all my money including whatever I spent on any accessories. So I think that they have basically given up on me, preferring not to try to address the problem.

If I take a new camera, I'm afraid I will have to go through all of this again, especially as regards the DLSS problem. If I take the money, I won't have any camera until a new one is released. (Despite all this, I do like Sony cameras and prefer to stick with them.) So I really don't know what to do.

Am I being too picky? Is it too much to expect to get well-exposed shots in Auto mode? Does everybody experience this difference between Auto and AP or SP pictures? Does anybody?

I have posted some samples taken the other day on pBase. Please note that the last 12 flower macros on the page are the ones taken after the last "overexposure fix." The very last two red ones are both pretty bad, in Auto and AP. Each pair was shot within seconds of each other, all with multi-pattern metering.

http://www.pbase.com/helenpb/f707_autoap_test_shots

Any thoughts would greatly be appreciated.

--
Helen
---
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Shay Stephens · Jul 2, 2002

I can understand where they are coming from, more money has probably been spent in labor than the camera is worth. They have to cut their losses. If you still want an F707 then get a replacement, if you don't want the gamble, then get the refund. Frustrating situation, but sometimes things just don't go the way we planned.

Side thought, do you do much shooting in auto mode? I have BFS, but don't do much flash work, and so I have not bothered to send the camera in to be "fixed".

--
Shay

My Sony F707 Gallery: http://www.shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp

Shutter. · Jul 2, 2002

Its probably a smart move on their part. Who knows the quacks that have messed up your camera? Also, if there is a problem with this one for you, I think they might just give you another. lol Maybe they'll just give you a key to their warehouse? LOL

Take a new one.

Jim

Helen Betts said:
More in the continuing saga of Betts vs. Sony Japan:

Sony fixed my F707's DLSS beautifully -- absolutely flawless. They
modified my tripod so I could use it. They got Landscape mode to
work pretty well. But I still find that Auto mode is overexposing
shots in general and in particular all closeups and macros.

The head of Sony Okinawa heard that I was planning to bring the
camera in yet again to see if they could fix this overexposure
problem, but when I talked to him this morning, he informed me that
Sony has decided to either exchange the F707 for another one, or
refund all my money including whatever I spent on any accessories.
So I think that they have basically given up on me, preferring not
to try to address the problem.

If I take a new camera, I'm afraid I will have to go through all of
this again, especially as regards the DLSS problem. If I take the
money, I won't have any camera until a new one is released.
(Despite all this, I do like Sony cameras and prefer to stick with
them.) So I really don't know what to do.

Am I being too picky? Is it too much to expect to get well-exposed
shots in Auto mode? Does everybody experience this difference
between Auto and AP or SP pictures? Does anybody?

I have posted some samples taken the other day on pBase. Please
note that the last 12 flower macros on the page are the ones taken
after the last "overexposure fix." The very last two red ones are
both pretty bad, in Auto and AP. Each pair was shot within seconds
of each other, all with multi-pattern metering.

http://www.pbase.com/helenpb/f707_autoap_test_shots

Any thoughts would greatly be appreciated.

--
Helen
---
http://community.webshots.com/user/helenpb_
http://pbase.com/helenpb
http://www.photosig.com/userphotos.php?id=2456

--
Jim Fuglestad
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

Bobbo · Jul 2, 2002

They haven't given up on you, they are being very accommodating, more so than what most people get. It looks like the auto mode on your camera is overexposing. If you really like the F707 ask if you take the replacement and it has problems if you can then get your money back, then you haven't lost that option.
--
Bobbo

HelenPB · Jul 2, 2002

Hi Shay,

Thanks for your thoughts. In fact, there was another thread on this problem that you had responded to, and I just realized today that I had not seen it or answered. Sorry!

To answer this question: In the beginning, I used Auto mode almost exclusively, but as time wore on (and thanks to this forum) I realized that that wasn't always the best way to go. So now I find myself shooting in AP more often, sometimes in SP when appropriate. But in a pinch, when I just need to fire it up and take a picture quickly, I still rely on Auto. I understand what you are getting at, but I guess I would still like to have that option at least available to me and functioning properly when the need arises.

Yes, it is extremely frustrating. I really love this camera; it's such an improvement in many ways over the S75 and S85 (and I won't even mention the P9

). A friend suggested telling Sony that I want to keep the F707 until the new model, whatever whenever that is going to be, is released and get them to agree to exchange it for one of those. I thought that was worth a try, at least.

Helen

Shay Stephens said:
I can understand where they are coming from, more money has
probably been spent in labor than the camera is worth. They have
to cut their losses. If you still want an F707 then get a
replacement, if you don't want the gamble, then get the refund.
Frustrating situation, but sometimes things just don't go the way
we planned.

Side thought, do you do much shooting in auto mode? I have BFS,
but don't do much flash work, and so I have not bothered to send
the camera in to be "fixed".

--
Shay

My Sony F707 Gallery: http://www.shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp

--
Helen
---
http://community.webshots.com/user/helenpb_
http://pbase.com/helenpb
http://www.photosig.com/userphotos.php?id=2456

Yehuda Katz · Jul 2, 2002

Helen,

If I were in your place, I would take, no doubt, the new camera. After all, DLS is less a bug than overexposing in Auto mode. And with all probability, latest cameras are supposed to be free from DLS.

Regards, Yehuda

Helen Betts said:
More in the continuing saga of Betts vs. Sony Japan:

Sony fixed my F707's DLSS beautifully -- absolutely flawless. They
modified my tripod so I could use it. They got Landscape mode to
work pretty well. But I still find that Auto mode is overexposing
shots in general and in particular all closeups and macros.

The head of Sony Okinawa heard that I was planning to bring the
camera in yet again to see if they could fix this overexposure
problem, but when I talked to him this morning, he informed me that
Sony has decided to either exchange the F707 for another one, or
refund all my money including whatever I spent on any accessories.
So I think that they have basically given up on me, preferring not
to try to address the problem.

If I take a new camera, I'm afraid I will have to go through all of
this again, especially as regards the DLSS problem. If I take the
money, I won't have any camera until a new one is released.
(Despite all this, I do like Sony cameras and prefer to stick with
them.) So I really don't know what to do.

Am I being too picky? Is it too much to expect to get well-exposed
shots in Auto mode? Does everybody experience this difference
between Auto and AP or SP pictures? Does anybody?

I have posted some samples taken the other day on pBase. Please
note that the last 12 flower macros on the page are the ones taken
after the last "overexposure fix." The very last two red ones are
both pretty bad, in Auto and AP. Each pair was shot within seconds
of each other, all with multi-pattern metering.

http://www.pbase.com/helenpb/f707_autoap_test_shots

Any thoughts would greatly be appreciated.

--
Helen
---
http://community.webshots.com/user/helenpb_
http://pbase.com/helenpb
http://www.photosig.com/userphotos.php?id=2456

Stew_W · Jul 2, 2002

Helen,

I would go for the new one too. I've had my latest for about a week now, with a June '02 date on the lens barrel, and it seems to be perfect. I would have settled for a May '02. (I've actually been through 3 cameras since finding that my first had DLS a few months ago). I think they've cleared up the DLS on these latest models (somebody correct me if they've experienced otherwise - I haven't been following the DLS threads for awhile). The only thing is, I had exactly the same problem on my first 707 taking a closeup of a particularly colored red flower (that looks exactly like yours) in daylight in Auto. This when exposure in general was fine in Auto. ( the main problem on that camera was DLS). It was kind of a freakish thing, and didn't happen on other colored flowers in the same light (some color saturation problem, I don't know). I'll be going by that flower bed tomorrow and I'll try it again with my new one, and report back, but I would go for the new camera with a recent date.

Stew

Helen Betts said:
More in the continuing saga of Betts vs. Sony Japan:

Sony fixed my F707's DLSS beautifully -- absolutely flawless. They
modified my tripod so I could use it. They got Landscape mode to
work pretty well. But I still find that Auto mode is overexposing
shots in general and in particular all closeups and macros.

The head of Sony Okinawa heard that I was planning to bring the
camera in yet again to see if they could fix this overexposure
problem, but when I talked to him this morning, he informed me that
Sony has decided to either exchange the F707 for another one, or
refund all my money including whatever I spent on any accessories.
So I think that they have basically given up on me, preferring not
to try to address the problem.

HelenPB · Jul 2, 2002

Please don't misunderstand: I agree that they are trying to be accommodating, and I do appreciate it. It's pretty astounding for a Japanese corporation in Japan. But I have been camera-less for so long now, it makes me tired just to think of going through all this rigamarole again with a new one, if that becomes necessary.

If I do take a replacement camera, I don't think there would be any problem getting them to agree to refund my money in the event that that one also has unfixable problems. So maybe that's the route to go, although I liked my friend's idea of telling them I would keep this one until a newer model comes out and then exchange it for that.

Helen

Bobbo said:
They haven't given up on you, they are being very accommodating,
more so than what most people get. It looks like the auto mode on
your camera is overexposing. If you really like the F707 ask if you
take the replacement and it has problems if you can then get your
money back, then you haven't lost that option.
--
Bobbo

--
Helen
---
http://community.webshots.com/user/helenpb_
http://pbase.com/helenpb
http://www.photosig.com/userphotos.php?id=2456

HelenPB · Jul 2, 2002

Hey Jim,

I like the idea of a key to the warehouse! Think they'd go for it?

In all honesty, I think the Sony guy would prefer that I take the refund. As I mentioned a long time ago, Japanese don't complain about things like this to the extent that Americans do. So I've become a really squeaky wheel for them, somthing quite out of the ordinary. In fact, when I bought the P9 as an interim camera and he heard about it (it's a small island), his reaction was one of worry that "Betts-san" would find problems with that one as well. (In fact, I don't think there are any flaws in my particular P9 unit; I just don't think it's a very good camera.)

Well, maybe the new one is the way to go. I sure hope I don't have another saga then!

Helen

Shutter said:
Take a new one.

Jim

Helen Betts said:

More in the continuing saga of Betts vs. Sony Japan:

Sony fixed my F707's DLSS beautifully -- absolutely flawless. They
modified my tripod so I could use it. They got Landscape mode to
work pretty well. But I still find that Auto mode is overexposing
shots in general and in particular all closeups and macros.

The head of Sony Okinawa heard that I was planning to bring the
camera in yet again to see if they could fix this overexposure
problem, but when I talked to him this morning, he informed me that
Sony has decided to either exchange the F707 for another one, or
refund all my money including whatever I spent on any accessories.
So I think that they have basically given up on me, preferring not
to try to address the problem.

If I take a new camera, I'm afraid I will have to go through all of
this again, especially as regards the DLSS problem. If I take the
money, I won't have any camera until a new one is released.
(Despite all this, I do like Sony cameras and prefer to stick with
them.) So I really don't know what to do.

Am I being too picky? Is it too much to expect to get well-exposed
shots in Auto mode? Does everybody experience this difference
between Auto and AP or SP pictures? Does anybody?

I have posted some samples taken the other day on pBase. Please
note that the last 12 flower macros on the page are the ones taken
after the last "overexposure fix." The very last two red ones are
both pretty bad, in Auto and AP. Each pair was shot within seconds
of each other, all with multi-pattern metering.

http://www.pbase.com/helenpb/f707_autoap_test_shots

Any thoughts would greatly be appreciated.

--
Helen
---
http://community.webshots.com/user/helenpb_
http://pbase.com/helenpb
http://www.photosig.com/userphotos.php?id=2456

Click to expand...

--
Jim Fuglestad
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

--
Helen
---
http://community.webshots.com/user/helenpb_
http://pbase.com/helenpb
http://www.photosig.com/userphotos.php?id=2456

Ulysses · Jul 2, 2002

Helen Betts said:
heard about it (it's a small island), his reaction was one of worry
that "Betts-san" would find problems with that one as well. (In
fact, I don't think there are any flaws in my particular P9 unit; I
just don't think it's a very good camera.)

Well... he was at least half-right, then, wasn't he? ;-)

Helen, I'd take the money and run.

Or...

I'd take the camera and run.

There seems to be a common denominator, then. Whatever you do --- just run!!

--

Ulysses

HelenPB · Jul 3, 2002

Ulysses said:
Helen Betts said:

heard about it (it's a small island), his reaction was one of worry
that "Betts-san" would find problems with that one as well. (In
fact, I don't think there are any flaws in my particular P9 unit; I
just don't think it's a very good camera.)

Click to expand...

Well... he was at least half-right, then, wasn't he? ;-)

Now how could he have known that? Could it have something to do with the fact that I've been in there with my S75, S85 and F707?

Member said:
Helen, I'd take the money and run.

Or...

I'd take the camera and run.

There seems to be a common denominator, then. Whatever you do ---
just run!!

Well, yes, "running" seems to be the key word here, isn't it? But running with or without camera is the question. I suppose in the end I may just try a new camera, to give it a fair shot, but insist that it be a very recently manufactured one. Surely it can't be as bad as this one? (Although that would be my third F707; the first one in fact was far worse than this one in terms of DLSS.) I can't bear to be without a camera until something else comes out, and I surely don't want to have to rely on that P9 for all my pics. (I've already found a buyer for it, anyway.)

--
Helen
---
http://community.webshots.com/user/helenpb_
http://pbase.com/helenpb
http://www.photosig.com/userphotos.php?id=2456

Steve Cavigliano · Jul 3, 2002

Helen,

I'd also take the new one. I'd ask that they make it a "newer" new one. The incidence of DLS has dropped off pretty dramatically in the last few months. Even the ones that are affected don't look anywhere near as bad as the earlier units with DLS. I'm thinking you have a 99% chance of getting a DLS free (or at least DLS acceptable) 707. IMO that's better than not being able to use Auto (with confidence), or giving up on this great cam.
The above is based on them telling you no swap for the "next version of the DA".

You're in a really tough predicament, I feel for you. I wish you happiness, whatever you decide.

Steve
--
http://www.pbase.com/slo2k

Stew_W · Jul 3, 2002

Helen,

I'm sorry, but I didn't look at all of your comparison shots before writing my last note. I just focused on the red ones and said to myself "I've seen that before". You obviously have a consistent problem between AP and Auto. I'll have to try the same sort of comparison (and landscape).

For what it's worth, here's one of the shots from my old 707 that I was talking about. The top of the flowers definitely didn't look like that from any angle (it wasn't just the angle of the light). And the bottom flowers shouldn't have been that saturated.

Stew

Stew_W said:
Helen,

I would go for the new one too. I've had my latest for about a
week now, with a June '02 date on the lens barrel, and it seems to
be perfect. I would have settled for a May '02. (I've actually
been through 3 cameras since finding that my first had DLS a few
months ago). I think they've cleared up the DLS on these latest

HelenPB · Jul 3, 2002

Hi Stew,

I can't seem to view your pics; I'm having terrible problems with pBase and photoSIG as well as viewing embedded pics on STF. Can you post any smaller versions?

I'd be interested in seeing how your test shots come out. I'd sure like to know I wasn't the only person having this kind of problem, although I surely don't wish it on you!

Helen

Stew_W said:
Helen,

I'm sorry, but I didn't look at all of your comparison shots before
writing my last note. I just focused on the red ones and said to
myself "I've seen that before". You obviously have a consistent
problem between AP and Auto. I'll have to try the same sort of
comparison (and landscape).

For what it's worth, here's one of the shots from my old 707 that I
was talking about. The top of the flowers definitely didn't look
like that from any angle (it wasn't just the angle of the light).
And the bottom flowers shouldn't have been that saturated.

John Wedrychowski60325 · Jul 3, 2002

Hello Helen, here are my thoughts.

If you take the money and you buy a new camera you might get problems of some sort or other with that camera.

if you accept a new 707 you might find things about that camera that are not perfect.

if you make an agreement with Sony that they'll swap your 707 for the next generation (909 or whatever that might be) you will be an early user of a new generation. There are always teething problems with anything this complex. You'll get a new camera and new faults.

if you continue with your existing less than perfect 707 at least you know its limtations and can (for the most part) work around them.

If it were me, I'd gracefully accept my current camera back and try to get a little "something" by way of compensation for being without the camera for so long.

I had BFS with my first 707, and I took the problem to the retailer. In the UK when you buy something from a retailer your contract is with him, not the manufacturer. When my camera hadn't been fixed after a couple of weeks I simply reminded them that they had my money and I had no camera. Their response was to tell me to go to the shop and get another camera. I did that, tested it and was happy.

I then wrote to the retailer to thank them.They responded by sending me a 64MB memory stick FOC.

I feel I have been treated well. Maybe I have been lucky, but perhaps its easier to have the discussion with a local retailer rather than directly with a huge corporation.

As a final thought, please don't stop being "picky". In general, when people find something wrong they don't complain, and if they do, often they don't stick at it. We need "picky" people to maintain the balance.

Best of luck whatever you decide to do, and post some pics soon!

John W

------------
johnwed
707 BFS fixed
stickers on
cap dangling

David Barker91965 · Jul 3, 2002

...is there is an apparent difference between the exposure on Auto and on say AP-mode when you look through the viewfinder (or on the LCD)? I realise that the quality of the on-camera preview is relatively poor (but coming from a film camera background I still can't quite get used to the luxury of digital, with instant feedback, shoot as often as you like without wasting film etc etc).

If you can tell from the preview that the exposure is wrong, you can at least do something about it, and still get the shot. Or you can bracket everything.

Still, that's not the point is it? You shouldn't have to.

I'd go for the replacement. You have put nagging doubts in my mind though. I'm going to have to try to replicate your test shots...

Don't let the camera get in the way of your photography!

--
David Barker

HelenPB · Jul 3, 2002

Well, there used to be quite a difference, before I had the first overexposure "fix" performed on the camera. I took the Sony guy outside in the sun and made him look; you could see the LCD brightening visibly (and in some cases, to an extreme) when shooting in Auto or Landscape mode (and my LCD is already set pretty bright). The resulting pictures looked just the same -- badly overexposed. However, now it's not that obvious (nor is the difference between AP and Auto; they did manage to adjust it somewhat -- just not well enough to suit me).

Yes, I realize I can compensate for this, but you hit the nail on the head when you said I shouldn't have to. That's not what I shelled out ¥116,000 for! And besides, that's fine if I have lots of time to take shots, but not when I need to use the camera in a hurry.

Please let us know how your test shots come out. I hope they're fine, although as I mentioned to someone else it would be nice (in a perverse sort of way) to know that I'm not alone here!

Helen

David Barker said:
...is there is an apparent difference between the exposure on Auto
and on say AP-mode when you look through the viewfinder (or on the
LCD)? I realise that the quality of the on-camera preview is
relatively poor (but coming from a film camera background I still
can't quite get used to the luxury of digital, with instant
feedback, shoot as often as you like without wasting film etc etc).

If you can tell from the preview that the exposure is wrong, you
can at least do something about it, and still get the shot. Or you
can bracket everything.

Still, that's not the point is it? You shouldn't have to.

I'd go for the replacement. You have put nagging doubts in my mind
though. I'm going to have to try to replicate your test shots...

Don't let the camera get in the way of your photography!

--
David Barker

--
Helen
---
http://community.webshots.com/user/helenpb_
http://pbase.com/helenpb
http://www.photosig.com/userphotos.php?id=2456

HelenPB · Jul 3, 2002

John,

Thank you for your comments, all of which are quite valid. I originally wanted to stay with my current camera, after all the work they have done on it. I just wanted this last problem adjusted; I didn't think it would be that difficult since they had already tweaked the exposure settings to a much better point than they used to be. But I guess they just don't want to try to do that; or maybe they think this is the best they can do. But you're right; my current F707 is at least a known quantity, whereas another one, whether a trade, a newly purchased one or the successor, will undoubtedly run the risk of having its own problems. Tough decision!!

And thank you so much for your remark about not stopping being picky. I've begun to think that the Sony rep, along with my Okinawan and Japanese friends here, thinks I'm just being far too picky, looking for problems that don't bother most local customers (which they don't; at least nobody complains). They have the mistaken idea that I'm some kind of "professional" who will settle for nothing less than perfection, but really, I just want a camera that works the way it's supposed to. It's become something of a joke, my ongoing saga with Sony, and today an Okinawan friend said not to worry about the language barrier when I call Sony with my decision; everyone there, even the office ladies, knows me by name (and reputation, I'm sure).

Helen

John Wedrychowski said:
Hello Helen, here are my thoughts.

If you take the money and you buy a new camera you might get
problems of some sort or other with that camera.

if you accept a new 707 you might find things about that camera
that are not perfect.

if you make an agreement with Sony that they'll swap your 707 for
the next generation (909 or whatever that might be) you will be an
early user of a new generation. There are always teething problems
with anything this complex. You'll get a new camera and new faults.

if you continue with your existing less than perfect 707 at least
you know its limtations and can (for the most part) work around
them.

If it were me, I'd gracefully accept my current camera back and try
to get a little "something" by way of compensation for being
without the camera for so long.

I had BFS with my first 707, and I took the problem to the
retailer. In the UK when you buy something from a retailer your
contract is with him, not the manufacturer. When my camera hadn't
been fixed after a couple of weeks I simply reminded them that they
had my money and I had no camera. Their response was to tell me to
go to the shop and get another camera. I did that, tested it and
was happy.

I then wrote to the retailer to thank them.They responded by
sending me a 64MB memory stick FOC.

I feel I have been treated well. Maybe I have been lucky, but
perhaps its easier to have the discussion with a local retailer
rather than directly with a huge corporation.

As a final thought, please don't stop being "picky". In general,
when people find something wrong they don't complain, and if they
do, often they don't stick at it. We need "picky" people to
maintain the balance.

Best of luck whatever you decide to do, and post some pics soon!

John W

------------
johnwed
707 BFS fixed
stickers on
cap dangling

--
Helen
---
http://community.webshots.com/user/helenpb_
http://pbase.com/helenpb
http://www.photosig.com/userphotos.php?id=2456

HelenPB · Jul 3, 2002

A friend downloaded and mailed me your picture. Yep, sure is a familiar sight! When I was experimenting yesterday, I tried adjusting the EV to see how the reds fared; here are the results: (much better than the overexposed ones I posted on my pBase page)

AP with -1 EV

Auto with -1.3 EV

Helen Betts said:
I can't seem to view your pics; I'm having terrible problems with
pBase and photoSIG as well as viewing embedded pics on STF. Can you
post any smaller versions?

I'd be interested in seeing how your test shots come out. I'd sure
like to know I wasn't the only person having this kind of problem,
although I surely don't wish it on you!

Helen

Stew_W said:

Helen,

I'm sorry, but I didn't look at all of your comparison shots before
writing my last note. I just focused on the red ones and said to
myself "I've seen that before". You obviously have a consistent
problem between AP and Auto. I'll have to try the same sort of
comparison (and landscape).

For what it's worth, here's one of the shots from my old 707 that I
was talking about. The top of the flowers definitely didn't look
like that from any angle (it wasn't just the angle of the light).
And the bottom flowers shouldn't have been that saturated.

Click to expand...

--
Helen
---
http://community.webshots.com/user/helenpb_
http://pbase.com/helenpb
http://www.photosig.com/userphotos.php?id=2456

Stew_W · Jul 3, 2002

Sorry Helen, I though 640x480 would be ok. It's just one shot. Here's a link:

http://www.pbase.com/image/2863834

As I said, after looking at ALL of your shots, I can see you're having a problem across the board. Got me interested enough to try the same thing though. Never really compared exposure in Auto to exposure in Priority.

Stew

Helen Betts said:
Hi Stew,

I can't seem to view your pics; I'm having terrible problems with
pBase and photoSIG as well as viewing embedded pics on STF. Can you
post any smaller versions?

Help, please! Thoughts on F707 problems

HelenPB

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