Full Frame or Digital Medium Format - it's Time to VOTE!

MF would be a good choice at this time,but how many could afford it,
is the big question ?. Volume at affordable prices is what grows
profit margins. A bare bone FF camera perhaps a better option in
these economic times. Trim the frills to cut cost at the same time
concentrate on IQ,spend the money to promote a format that the
younger generation will more gravitate to.Give us feature we use 90%
of the time in a K20D ( basically ) body for $1500,as an entry level
FF would be a good start,not many could resist a FF with excellent IQ
at such a price. Hook line and sinker, old and new Pentax users
delight.
Just a thought.
Volume depends on consumer spending. When the economies tank consumer spending will dry up. The demand for higher end gear will dry up less. Consider a small pro working with MF film today. If Pentax can come up with an MF digital that lowers the working cost and improves efficiency and profit that pro will likely go with the MF system to have an edge over the 35mm digital crowd.

I'm not convinced this is the time for Pentax to offer a 35mm digital or MF digital. If it's going to be one or the other MF makes more sense in these times. A premium brand with high value for the money is the sweet spot. IMHO.
 
I guess you are one of those handful of photographers I am talking
about. What percentage of the DSLR buyers do you think you represent?
Ah, but that's my point. That's why there doesn't need to be a cheap affordable Digital MF camera, or even for Pentax to make a FF Camera. There isn't a big enough market for high-end expensive digital cameras, to allow Pentax to compete successfully and to make a profit and make it worthwhile to themselves and their market. Get a decent APS-C camera and some decent lenses. I enjoy photography for fun and pleasure and my own artistic and fun projects, so I have that side of me as well, I just got back from 5 months out of the country with just my DSLR . And for that side of me, APS-C (my K20D) more than meets my needs, I have a couple DA*zooms, the 55-300 and the 3 FA Ltds. Great lenses. That's why I bought back into Pentax for DSLR. In fact I still have a fair number of Iris inkjets on my walls that were made from back when I had a Canon 3MP DSLR.

But I firmly believe that for this larger percentage of DSLR buyers that you speak of do not need more than APS-C. Whether it is Pentax K20D or Canon 50D or Nikon D300. All excellent cameras if you outfit them with decent lenses. And these are affordable cameras that fit perfectly into the market you speak of and fit perfectly with me as well. It's a mysterious discontentment that would make one feel that they needed or had to have a digital FF or digital MF camera, unless in order to book work or keep jobs they had to have one.

I also firmly believe that while Pentax did once make a decent (after a few iterations) 645 Camera and sold it at a reasonable price. The R&D and materials and selling point price and profit margin allowed them to do that. This is no longer the case and the much more expensive and intensive R&D required for Digital MF along with the materials and the construction (even in the Vietnam) will end up with a camera that is out of the price range and usefulness to those who make up the Pentax market.

Pentax will best serve it's customers and the market the best by continuing to refine its APS-C camera. There's a lot of improvements to be made here first and foremost before deserting all its customer base for the ego of chasing Canon and Nikon and Mamiya and Leaf and Leica and Sony or whoever.

Refine and perfect the K-line of APS-C. Improve the AF accuracy and speed, add some more AF options, put a better buffer into the works to allow faster frame rates, solid state memory is so cheap now. More metering options, color metering. Better processing engine with improved signal to noise ratio, genuine 14-bit or greater throughput. They can take what they have and while everyone else is chasing MF and FF, Pentax could improve their K-line APS-C into the best one on the market, with little additional investment (compared to from scratch FF and new lenses for FF or MF and new MF lenses) And finally get busy with more lenses, more primes, get the DA*30 finished up, add an 85 and 135 and 600 and a newer 11-16, perhaps a 135-300 or so.

I think everyone who currently shoots Pentax will be happier and have a better end product if Pentax did this, then go out and try to go down the FF or MF road, with the cameras being ok, but needing a few model releases over the next few years to iron out all the kinks and 3 to 5 years worth of lens development before either FF or MF has a comprehensive set. I know that a lot of people think that, OK Pentax has FF and 645 lenses, so it's good to go. But FF shows up a lenses deficiencies more than lower resolution and smaller sensors, so if a Pentax FF comes along, even the FA limiteds will not look as strong or stellar as they did on APS-C or film. You think there's some PF and CA now with them? wait until you pop that onto a FF digital camera with 21 or 28 MP. Even mores so for a MF high res sensor with the older 645 lenses. Those lenses were never as strong to begin with as the Mamiya or Hasselblad lenses, and if those older designs were put onto a new 645D, they would never, ever be able to compete with the other makes.

Pentax got a late start on a serious DSLR, and it hasn't quite caught up with the entire line yet, as is evidenced by the lenses still on or not yet even on the roadmap.

Let Pentax complete and perfect what it is in the middle of doing, and let other makers make other makes. Then maybe down the road, think about adding something else.
 
This is not a vote with intent to purchase, I don't really need (nor can afford) anything higher than APS-C. I just like to give my vote of confidence to the Pentax strategy of MF before FF.

My feeling is that a high-end FF Pentax at this time** will just be a "me too" product with lower specs and fewer lens choices than the competition. It will not attract Canon/Nikon APS-C users. Nor will it attract current FF users. Of course it will make current Pentax users with existing FF glass very happy, but Hoya won't be as happy with sales/profit.

The situation will change once there are more FF lenses in the roadmap. Even so, it will have to be a very good lineup to compete. This will take some time. Hence I agree with MF before FF.
 
As a matter of interest, of those who voted for the 645, how many will actually buy one with a set of lenses, flash etc? We are talking about a camera that could cost US$10,000 or more not to mention a set of lenses and flash to go with it.
--
Lance B
http://www.pbase.com/lance_b

 
As a matter of interest, of those who voted for the 645, how many
will actually buy one with a set of lenses, flash etc? We are talking
about a camera that could cost US$10,000 or more not to mention a set
of lenses and flash to go with it.
My guess is they want to go for about $7000 or so if at all possible (getting to the 500k yen mark in Japan - their main market - would be pretty big, marketing-wise). So, assume, say, $7500-$8500 for body and a lens. All other photography-related gear I already have.

Yes, I would buy it. Exactly when I would buy it depends to a large degree on my employment situation (which in my profession tends to be rather volatile). If my professional future turns out well for the next couple of years I can save up for it in, oh, 4 months or so - less if I scrimp heavily on other things; bit more if I don't hurry. So if they announce it well in advance I should be able to pick one up fairly soon after the reviews are out.

If my employment situation turns bad - known to happen - I won't have the money for such a camera until my economy improves. Of course in that situation I would not have the money for an FF camera, a K-m or for a garage-sale Instamatic either, making any comparisons rather moot.

--
Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jannem/
Blog: http://janneinosaka.blogspot.com
 
okay that makes sense
in that case could something like an inverted tele-converter work

ie have it at the correct register distance with maybe something like a .7 magnification to bring the focal length back into alignment. (the factor is probably wrong but i'm to out of it to try and work maths at this time of day still convalescing from flu)

of course this is counter productive to the argument of superior IQ which is why we'd want MF in the first place.

Rohan (scratches head seems more trouble than it is worth to use old lenses)
JensR wrote:
K mount needs a register distance (mount to film/sensor) of 45.46mm
645 mount has 70.87mm which is more or less typical of MF SLRs.
(Mamiya 645 has "only" 63.3mm)

This would act as a 24mm extension tube to all lenses and thus only
allow macro and close-up work.

Unless someone comes up with a MediumFormat EVIL camera that needs no
mirror and thus can have a smaller register, it is practically
impossible to use 24x36 lenses on MF.

Cheers
Jens

--
'Well, 'Zooming with your feet' is usually a stupid thing as zoom
rings are designed for hands.' (Me, 2006)
My Homepage: http://www.JensRoesner.de
--
I hear birds out the window, quick i must grab my camera.
 
But I firmly believe that for this larger percentage of DSLR buyers
that you speak of do not need more than APS-C. Whether it is Pentax
Well, need is one thing. Wanting is another. People tend to upgrade regardless of the need. For instance, do people really need K20D? Doubt it for 90% of the folks out there. My ist D serves me fine. But I do want something more than K20D.
I guess you are one of those handful of photographers I am talking
about. What percentage of the DSLR buyers do you think you represent?
Ah, but that's my point. That's why there doesn't need to be a cheap
affordable Digital MF camera, or even for Pentax to make a FF Camera.
There isn't a big enough market for high-end expensive digital
cameras, to allow Pentax to compete successfully and to make a profit
and make it worthwhile to themselves and their market. Get a decent
My point was that there seem to be bigger market for FF than MF. As prices come down, it seems the FF market will get bigger faster than MF. After all, the market for Canon's 5D is for high-end enthusiasts, not just pros.

One other Pentax should get FF is to provide a vision for its customers. Whether you like it or not, people tend to dream about upgrading when they buy a product. So, having a higher end FF camera available will give people hope of being able to upgrade to the higher end camera. More often than not, purchase decision for most consumers is emotional, not just logical. So, without the high end FF, Pentax loses on the emotional appeal to the consumers compared to Nikon or Canon.

Gene

--
http://genespentax.blogspot.com/
http://flickr.com/photos/genespentax/
Brand New Sigma EF-530 DG SUPER for only $225.
Brand New Tamron 70-300mm Di LD Macro for only $135.
 
not.

btw -- you are willing to rid of your DSLR and ALL your lenses for one MF and ONE lens? Do you think that one MF lens will be a super zoom like Tamron's?
As a matter of interest, of those who voted for the 645, how many
will actually buy one with a set of lenses, flash etc? We are talking
about a camera that could cost US$10,000 or more not to mention a set
of lenses and flash to go with it.
My guess is they want to go for about $7000 or so if at all possible
(getting to the 500k yen mark in Japan - their main market - would be
pretty big, marketing-wise). So, assume, say, $7500-$8500 for body
and a lens. All other photography-related gear I already have.

Yes, I would buy it. Exactly when I would buy it depends to a large
degree on my employment situation (which in my profession tends to be
rather volatile). If my professional future turns out well for the
next couple of years I can save up for it in, oh, 4 months or so -
less if I scrimp heavily on other things; bit more if I don't hurry.
So if they announce it well in advance I should be able to pick one
up fairly soon after the reviews are out.

If my employment situation turns bad - known to happen - I won't have
the money for such a camera until my economy improves. Of course in
that situation I would not have the money for an FF camera, a K-m or
for a garage-sale Instamatic either, making any comparisons rather
moot.

--
Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jannem/
Blog: http://janneinosaka.blogspot.com
--
http://genespentax.blogspot.com/
http://flickr.com/photos/genespentax/
Brand New Sigma EF-530 DG SUPER for only $225.
Brand New Tamron 70-300mm Di LD Macro for only $135.
 
Get rid of? Why would I get rid of my DSLR? That wouldn't be a very good idea. A small DSLR with a couple of prime lenses as the everyday camera to bring along to work and so on, and the MF camera for when I go out specifically to take pictures. Much like I already use MF film.

And as for cost, $7000 sounds like a hideous amount of money to spend on photography. But there's plenty of other common hobbies that are as expensive or more. It's less money than the average motorcycle or leisure boat costs; a Harley or Honda Goldwing can easily set you back three times that amount, keeps sucking money every day you own it, but there's no shortage of buyers - middle-class, not the rich - spending on those things.
btw -- you are willing to rid of your DSLR and ALL your lenses for
one MF and ONE lens? Do you think that one MF lens will be a super
zoom like Tamron's?
As a matter of interest, of those who voted for the 645, how many
will actually buy one with a set of lenses, flash etc? We are talking
about a camera that could cost US$10,000 or more not to mention a set
of lenses and flash to go with it.
My guess is they want to go for about $7000 or so if at all possible
(getting to the 500k yen mark in Japan - their main market - would be
pretty big, marketing-wise). So, assume, say, $7500-$8500 for body
and a lens. All other photography-related gear I already have.

Yes, I would buy it. Exactly when I would buy it depends to a large
degree on my employment situation (which in my profession tends to be
rather volatile). If my professional future turns out well for the
next couple of years I can save up for it in, oh, 4 months or so -
less if I scrimp heavily on other things; bit more if I don't hurry.
So if they announce it well in advance I should be able to pick one
up fairly soon after the reviews are out.

If my employment situation turns bad - known to happen - I won't have
the money for such a camera until my economy improves. Of course in
that situation I would not have the money for an FF camera, a K-m or
for a garage-sale Instamatic either, making any comparisons rather
moot.

--
Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jannem/
Blog: http://janneinosaka.blogspot.com
--
http://genespentax.blogspot.com/
http://flickr.com/photos/genespentax/
Brand New Sigma EF-530 DG SUPER for only $225.
Brand New Tamron 70-300mm Di LD Macro for only $135.
--
Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jannem/
Blog: http://janneinosaka.blogspot.com
 
Hi Jens,
Almost. A 75 wouldn't be "normal" on a cropped 645.
They announced a DFA 55 (which led to some confusion with the DA*
55...) as a new normal, I suppose.
Here it is:
http://www.dslrphoto.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/roadmap.pdf
Ok, if they are going to have a 55mm lens as a new "normal," that means the sensor on this thing is going to be barely any bigger than a full-frame 24x36 sensor would be if at all. So you get most of the disadvantages of medium format (bulky, heavy lenses, no compatibility with 35mm lenses, long registration distance etc) and none of the advantages (larger pixels than possible on 135 fulll frame, image quality).

What would be the point? This makes less and less sense the more I think about it.
And the 1Ds offering shallower DOF, better superhigh ISO and weather
seals. Oh. Stabilised lenses, too. And more focal lengths to choose
from. Oh. Better AF, too. Faster, too. (Yes, I'm repetitive, I
know...)
Yeah, I just don't get it. Especially with 35mm lenses generally being of higher resolution, if you're going to use a similar-sized sensor, it will mean a step down in resoultion! What good is that massive mount going to do anyone? The 35mm lens designs they already have are simply much nicer.

Very puzzled.

-Matt
 
Folks out here can debate 24/7 but clearly to win mindshare of pros, pentax needs
  • FF or MF at a reasonable price. FF for 1.5K?
  • Good pro quality primes (other than FA limiteds) which also handle well and have weather seals etc
  • Good pro zooms (bring back the FA* design)
Else it will be a niche brand with less absolute growth than many others. I love Pentax primes but the system is broken/incomplete

Disclaimer: My knowledge of lenses are limited as I only own a K100D+35/2,50/1.4,43/1.9,77/1.8 and I have handled used my friend's 5D + 50/1.4, 100/2.8, 70-200/4L etc.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/debojyoti_dutta/
http://picasaweb.google.com/ddutta
 
Some very good discussion here.

There is much Pentax could do to strengthen its line of APS-C products.

That includes offering an "upscale" model to which people can aspire to own (as discussed by Gene.)

As a former P67 owner, and someone who is casually shopping for a 645N (I've been doing a lot of b&w film lately), I would not consider getting a 645D. I'd rather just shoot film in a 645N - the larger body fits well with a more considered (read: slow) approach to photography, and scan the film if I need to work on the image digitally. ( If I need to shoot lots of frames in a short time I have my Canon gear for that.)

It would be good to see Pentax produce a high-end/professional APS-C model: 100% VF, weather sealed, higher FPS, etc. Additionally, Pentax would do well concentrating on the unique lens line-up approach to differentiating themselves from C/N/S.

-gt
 
Look at the size of APS-C bodies and how lots of people only started taking Pentax
serious when the designed the K10D to be larger than necessary,
People started to take Pentax seriously because the K10D was a product with interesting features - sealing, TAv, RAW, SR and most importantly, it marks the beginning of SDM lenses.

So I'd say its popularity has nothing to do with its size - I'll go as far as to say if the K10D were made as small as the K200D, it'd be an even better seller.

(No, you cannot compare it to the original D because the original D had quite a few things gone wrong - the screwed up WB, ISO and Res on the mode dial, the cramped CF slot, and its unfortunate 300D-proximity timing, 1500+ price)
My belief is that there is a market for FF cameras which have
profoundly less features than the D700, 5DII or A900, at a lower
price and smaller size. Pentax could do this. But in a few years, the
big three will have closed that niche.
You may be right, but I don't see an FF camera at any lower price than these bodies - after all in an FF body the sensor still dictates the cost - larger sensors don't just get more expensive - they get exponentially more expensive due to lower yields.

The cash cows beside lenses are still P&S. Too bad Pentax looks totally giving up that market. :( Only if it could use PRIME in the Optios and make a waterproof 750Z out of it - it could be a game changer.

When an FF body gets as small and light as an MZ-50, heck, I'll loosen the expectation to a something between a K200D and a K20D, I'll jump ship. Again, I predict it's not something that can happen at least until the next Summer Olympics.
 
I bought my first large format digital back (leased actually) 12
years ago and my first medium format digital back for my mamiya 6x7 9
years ago, and have gone through a few of each of the years. I just
finished selling off the last of my LF and MF systems and digital
backs for all that stuff, and have a good chunk to invest in a new
higher end MF system in the next few months. Sorry to say it won't
be Pentax, why, because I'm some snob or jerk? Well, mostly because
Pentax does not and will not have a single thing to sell me or even
to tempt me to wait .... I'm on the waiting list for a new Leaf
AFi-ii, but might postpone it until I have a look at the Leica, sadly
no such temptation from Pentax.
I'm not going to jump into this debate, except to say I'm happy with my Pentax APS-C camera, and the lenses. And this coming from a former mamiya 645 film shooter. Just a little fact check, There was no large format digital back 12 years ago. In fact there was no MF digital back in existence 9 years ago. This throws a bit of a shadow on any validity you may have thought you had.
 
Sure we would like to have the FF, and many would buy the 645D if its priced right.As of now, there's really no firm info that simply suggest the decision should be made one way or the other ...

Hey I want FF too, but considering what Pentax can do and their camera side of it all. I am skeptical about how it might come about. On the other hand, the 645D could be amazingly powerful too to had, but then how is it priced ... and what kind of lens roadmap for the 645 range ( Clearly we need something like a 28mm for it right )

--
  • Franka -
 
It would have been nice, but I don't believe it will happen. It may
be too late now. The MF field is already somewhat overcrowded, with
long established actors which have successfully made their transition
to digital: Hasselblad and Mamiya-Phase One for a start, but also
others like Leaf and Sinar.
Sucessful? I don't think tehre excist a single sucessful MF based
digital solution yet...
I don't know where you get this impression. To me, Hasselblad/Imacon seem to be doing quite well with their HD system and Mamiya/Phase One have an audience of their own. In addition, both the Sinar and Leaf solutions seemed complete and of a very high quality when I tried them at the Photokina. Time will tell if they are successful.
In addition, the MF systems best suited for digital are modular, like
the Bronica was in its time, or the Hasselblad V series, or the
Mamiya RZ-RB. The very least you must offer is interchangeable backs,
so that you can upgrade over time.
These cameras have digital backs because neither of the manufacturers
can afford (except Mamiya that went bankrupt in the process) to
design a DSLR from ground up. If digital backs were such a good idea,
Nikon and canon would have adopted it long ago.
Don't you have it the other way around ? Actually Mamiya has not designed a DSLR, they just upgraded their 645AFD which is now in its third iteration. All current MF systems are based on interchangeable backs which makes it easier to switch to film for specific applications or to upgrade to more recent versions of digital backs. This is to me one of the main differences of a MF system compared to small format SLRs : modularity. Interchangeable backs & interchangeable finders largely concur to that.

I didn't know that Mamiya was bankrupt, I thought they were OK since the alliance with Phase One. Could you please link to this information ?
 
Hmm. Í really don't think that money or intentions should determine ones right to have an opinion.

That means people who "only" plan to use DA lenses are not entitled to participate in this debate at all. If they buy more lenses they will most likely buy DA limiteds, DA* or older manual focus lenses instead of FA* or FA Limited lenses simply because they are cheaper. You are in fact saying that the majority of Pentax users here are not entitled to have an opinion regarding this issue.

Looks like some of the FF first people fear that a 645D project is a direct threat against their own FF hopes. I simply don't think that Pentax is ready to launch a FF system in the near future anyway but they have apparently continued to keep the 645D project alive. They should finish that 645D project and start a full scale FF R&D project instead.

Of course I would love a MZ-S style FF DSLR because of the size, handling and that great VF but let us not forget that it was not the MZ-S that kept Pentax in business. It was the other SLR's in the MZ line and the 645 system. A FF DSLR will be in the same position as the MZ-S. Most people would love to have one but only a fraction would actually buy one.

Finally I think this forum will not show the true interest in a 645D and why should it. What I do know is that the 645 system was a big success even though it was so expensive that most people here would never see it as a realistic alternative personally. Hopefully Hoya / Pentax see things in a broader perspective.

--
.......
Have a nice day (a picture is worth a thousand words)
Jim

Link to Pentax SLR Forum Best images:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=23551175

Inspiration Challenge - in depth feedback guaranteed

'Don't overestimate technology - nothing is knowledgefree'

 
This thread will focus on the possible introduction of the
long-promised 645D, either in parallel with a full frame pro-level
DSLR,
before the introduction of a full-frame system,
or instead of the FF system.
it will?
We are talking market research here - let's give Pentax some feedback
from the front lines...
You mean Hoya.
This is a continuation of the earlier thread:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1036&thread=29490241&page=1

I have suggested in the previous thread that we show Ned and the team
at Pentax how interested we are in the development and launch of the
645D...
Show Ned & Pentax??? Why?

Mr Edward (Ned) Bunnell is the President of Pentax Imaging USA. His previous position was Marketing Vice President. He has nothing to do with Hoya's product development, nor does he sit on the steering committee of Hoya's R&D team.

PENTAX Imaging Company USA is a division of PENTAX of America Inc (Ko Torigoe is President & CEO) which is the US operating subsidiary of Hoya Corporation, Shinjuku Japan.

Pentax of America & it's subsidiary division, Pentax Imaging USA are both sales & markieting subsidiaries of Hoya & are not involved in manufacturing, product development or R&D.
Pentax Corporation Japan, was dissolved as of March 31, 2008 & no longer exists.

Perhaps you should try addressing Hoya's Mr Hiroshi Hamada, Director & Chief Operating Officer & Mr Hiroaki Tanji, Director & Chief Technology Officer, perhaps you might also want to convince Mr Kenji Ema who as Director & Chief Financial Officer would also want to hear product development & R&D stratergy from you. (yeah right)
Here are the basic premises of the original thread:
Sorry Norm, snipped for the usual excessive fluffyness & rambling.
IF WE SHOW INTEREST IN THE PROJECT, perhaps this time around it will
come to fruition.
An understanding of Hoya's priorities in business development & R&D is their R&D Annual Report Statement in this PDF here:
http://www.hoya.co.jp/english/investor/d0h4dj0000000dbq-att/r&d_IP.pdf

Pentax camera equipment is no longer being developed or manufactured by a company with a photographic commitment. Hoya is a Technology Conglomerate whose product development is mainly consumer driven. Hoya's R&D focus is based on economic rationalization in manufacturing & science technology. Hoya understands (rightfully so) that the DMF landscape is already saturated with products for which there is (unfortunately) a limited market (mainly because of price). To successfully roll out the 645D, the price point would have to be low enough to attract a portion of the enthusiast market & the IQ good enough to at least match if not improve that of existing products in the Pro market. Very difficult to achieve. I would say impossiible to do without sustaining substantial medium to long term losses in the photo segment of their business, mainly through the roll out costs & the need to sustain substantial & expensive long term product technical support & back up. The shareholders would not accept this scenario.

Hoya would have considered all of this & asked themselves... "Do we need to roll out a 645D?....Our existing product range is already attractive to the amateur/enthusiast market & profitable, what will we gain?"

The result is as we know...the 645D is "shelved for the time being"

Hoya's Top Three Net Sales Breakdown by Business Segment (Year ended March 31, 2008)

Electro-Optics 43.6%
Vision Care 26.2%
Pentax 18.5%

Pentax Net Sales:
(Billions of yen) Operating Margin (%)



Net Sales Data for Pentax includes:



Snip
My name is Norm, and I approved this message.
Hmm! Thanks...

--

Please note: all images displayed by me on this or any other site are copyright ©
 
I suspect aps-c will suit my needs for a long time yet. I will, in due course, upgrade form my DL to a better featured model. Probably the K20D replacement, but in the meantime I have been gathering a couple of lens and have been concentrating on improving my photography skills. It is highly unlikely that I would ever buy a MF digital camera. I guess FF is more likely but not in the short term or even medium term future - of course this would depend on how far prices drop and then also how cheap advanced aps-c were in comparison.

Cheers
Kim
 

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