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Olympus will have to go with a bigger sensor

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Gidday Moccasin
Moccasin said:
John King said:
Try this one, and tell me if you can see noise and banding ... it was
taken with a 5D at ISO100:
Click to expand...
If I have missed it, at what magnification you show this image?
Click to expand...
At 300%, the same size as the noise shows in the G1 images ... but from 200% onwards. Look inside the lens hood and belt ...

Also bear in mind that this crop is taken from a 6.5MB JPEG; NOT a 313KB JPEG ... AND that the original was taken at ISO100; NOT ISO3200 ... With a sensor that is four times the area; with an 'L' lens (IIRC) ...

Regards, john from Melbourne, Australia.
-----

The Camera doth not make the Man (or Woman) ...
Perhaps being kind to cats, dogs & children does ...

Gallery: http://canopuscomputing.com.au/gallery2/main.php

Hints & Tips (temporary link, as under construction): http://canopuscomputing.com.au/index.php?p=1_9



Bird Control Officers on active service.

Member of UK (and abroad) Photo Safari Group
 
G'day again Moccasin
Moccasin said:
John King said:
At 300%, the same size as the noise shows in the G1 images ... but
from 200% onwards. Look inside the lens hood and belt ...
Click to expand...
I was under an impression G1 images are shown at reduced "normal"
viewing size.
Click to expand...
Try a (relatively!) "proper" comparison.

Download the images to your computer and examine them in Photoshop.

Looking at any image as it is displayed on the web is basically fairly useless (other than for aesthetic considerations), IMHO.

Regards, john from Melbourne, Australia.
-----

The Camera doth not make the Man (or Woman) ...
Perhaps being kind to cats, dogs & children does ...

Gallery: http://canopuscomputing.com.au/gallery2/main.php

Hints & Tips (temporary link, as under construction): http://canopuscomputing.com.au/index.php?p=1_9



Bird Control Officers on active service.

Member of UK (and abroad) Photo Safari Group
 
It's a comprmise between weight, quality and price.

However, the market changes.

The financial cost of MP is now close to zero, the only issue is noise.

For less noise you need a larger sensor.

However, the physical size of the sensor still add cost, though it is falling.

So more and more people will move to 35mmFF, and 4/3rds will become ever more of a niche for people who want smaller, lighter dSLRs. Big enough niche to survive in? I'd say so, yes, the unknown is mFT. A lot of us who understand what 4/3rds is and why we like it must be looking with interest at the G1. And Oly have sadly decided not to compete in that market, or at least not yet.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/acam
 
Gidday Louis
Louis_Dobson said:
It's a comprmise between weight, quality and price.

However, the market changes.

So more and more people will move to 35mmFF, and 4/3rds will become
ever more of a niche for people who want smaller, lighter dSLRs.
Click to expand...
I think that you are seriously wrong here, Louis. WADR, more and more people will move to smaller/lighter/cheaper, as the IQ gap is closed (as is happening very much right at the present moment) ...
Louis_Dobson said:
Big
enough niche to survive in? I'd say so, yes, the unknown is mFT. A
lot of us who understand what 4/3rds is and why we like it must be
looking with interest at the G1. And Oly have sadly decided not to
compete in that market, or at least not yet.
Click to expand...
??

Regards, john from Melbourne, Australia.
-----

The Camera doth not make the Man (or Woman) ...
Perhaps being kind to cats, dogs & children does ...

Gallery: http://canopuscomputing.com.au/gallery2/main.php

Hints & Tips (temporary link, as under construction): http://canopuscomputing.com.au/index.php?p=1_9



Bird Control Officers on active service.

Member of UK (and abroad) Photo Safari Group
 
in my opinion. There used to be no IQ gap at all, except at high ISOs. Now there is. Until recently if you want silly MPs, you had to buy a 1Dx, which costs arm plus leg. Now the 5D and A900 are here, with an MP count 4/3rds can't match.

I don't think most enthusiasts want small cameras. I do, because I like my pictures to do the impressing, but most enthusiasts want a dirty great big camera to stand out form the crowd. In my opinion there is a huge pent up demand for 35mmFF, held back only by price. I think the high end will be owned by 35mmFF. At the samller end, my hope was FT would migrate gently into smaller, lighter, more compact EVILs (MFT), but disastrously it turns out the lenses won't work, and in any case Oly see it as a P&S medium, so Panasonic's MFT and Oly's FT will end up competing to survive. On the basis of what I've seen so far, Panasonic's MFT looks stronger.

Gratuitous shot, while I'm here:



--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/acam
 
John King said:
I think that you are seriously wrong here, Louis. WADR, more and more
people will move to smaller/lighter/cheaper, as the IQ gap is closed
(as is happening very much right at the present moment) ...
Click to expand...
Most people on this thread like the size of E-3, and that is not the smallest/lightest/cheapest FT camera.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1022&thread=29460708

Add battery grip to it and it becomes as big as D3.

Can you show us some evidence where you think the IQ gap is closing? Curious where you are coming from.

-
 
Moccasin said:
John King said:
I think that you are seriously wrong here, Louis. WADR, more and more
people will move to smaller/lighter/cheaper, as the IQ gap is closed
(as is happening very much right at the present moment) ...
Click to expand...
Most people on this thread like the size of E-3, and that is not the
smallest/lightest/cheapest FT camera.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1022&thread=29460708

Add battery grip to it and it becomes as big as D3.
Click to expand...
AND add equivalent speed/EFL lenses to the D3 and you are looking at around 2~3 times the weight ...
Moccasin said:
Can you show us some evidence where you think the IQ gap is closing?
Curious where you are coming from.
Click to expand...
Do some research on sensor design ... The Kodak in the Hassy 50MP is delivering the same DR/IQ as the 39MP ...

The new mFT is delivering IQ at ISO3200 that was not possible with my E-1, even though the E-1 has far bigger pixels.

If you really want to have a "mine's bigger than yours" sort of argument; please do it somewhere else; or with someone else.

I am looking at what is being achieved, NOT at what a specific brand/sensor size can, or might, achieve.

Feel free to look at whatever you like; just do not expect me to agree with you when you are starting from a position that just assumes that the facts must be wrong, if they disagree with your previously formed opinions ... ;-).

The "it's a Canon/Nikon/Olympus ... " (substitute the prejudice of your choice ... ), therefore it must be the best, is not a particularly valid argument ...

Regards, john from Melbourne, Australia.
-----

The Camera doth not make the Man (or Woman) ...
Perhaps being kind to cats, dogs & children does ...

Gallery: http://canopuscomputing.com.au/gallery2/main.php

Hints & Tips (temporary link, as under construction): http://canopuscomputing.com.au/index.php?p=1_9



Bird Control Officers on active service.

Member of UK (and abroad) Photo Safari Group
 
That's the virtue. Frankly I think the people buying an E3 and attaching huge f2 lenses to it are making an eccentric choice - a D700 with f2.8s will be no bigger and will do the same job better in my opinion, but each to their own.

E3+7-14+12-60+50-200 remains a superb quality system however, that produces great results in reasonable light and won't break your back.

Shoot a lot in bad light, and frankly it is notso hotso.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/acam
 
That's the choices really.

With 4/3rds you can have superb lenses that are a reasonable weight, but high ISO performance is not wonderful.

With 35mmFF you can have superb lenses, but they weigh a ton and cost a bomb, or else fairly cruddy lenses. High ISO is good though.

APS-C offers marginally better high ISO performance than 4/3rds but much worse than 35mm, and the lens choices are all over the map.

My advice would be:

If you have to carry the cameras much and can shoot mainly in daylight, 4/3rds.

If you shoot a lot in bad light, don't have to carry the camera and have plenty of money, 35mmFF plus good lenses.

If you shoot in bad light, carry the cameras and / or have budget constraints, 35mmFF with a couple of primes and some cheap zooms.

APS-C I'd not bother with, myself.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/acam
 
John King said:
John King said:
Add battery grip to it and it becomes as big as D3.
Click to expand...
AND add equivalent speed/EFL lenses to the D3 and you are looking at
around 2~3 times the weight ...
Click to expand...
If you shoot birds, but I think we are talking about general everyday's usage. Do you shoot birds John?
John King said:
John King said:
Can you show us some evidence where you think the IQ gap is closing?
Curious where you are coming from.
Click to expand...
Do some research on sensor design ... The Kodak in the Hassy 50MP is
delivering the same DR/IQ as the 39MP ...
Click to expand...
If you have done your research already, can you show us some results from it? That is all I asked you, right?
John King said:
The new mFT is delivering IQ at ISO3200 that was not possible with my
E-1, even though the E-1 has far bigger pixels.
Click to expand...
How abut current technologies, is the gap narrowing or is it getting bigger? Or what?
John King said:
If you really want to have a "mine's bigger than yours" sort of
argument; please do it somewhere else; or with someone else.
Click to expand...
Wow. I don't think I gave any indication of it so far, did I? Only wanted to know what you base your claims on.
John King said:
I am looking at what is being achieved, NOT at what a specific
brand/sensor size can, or might, achieve.
Click to expand...
With 300% 5D image against a web shot? That is some major achievement. wow.

-
 
Just wanted to respond to your post and it disappeared while I was typing my message. Strange.

Hello Phil, how are you?

--
thomas
 
Gidday Thomas
thomasnb said:
Just wanted to respond to your post and it disappeared while I was
typing my message. Strange.

Hello Phil, how are you?

--
thomas
Click to expand...
Perhaps the moderators at DPR are enforcing a "zero tolerance" policy in relation to calling people names and failing to behave in an acceptable manner - as per Mr Askey's dictum on the Canon Pro forum ... here:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1032&message=29365755&changemode=1

Just a thought ...

Regards, john from Melbourne, Australia.
-----

The Camera doth not make the Man (or Woman) ...
Perhaps being kind to cats, dogs & children does ...

Gallery: http://canopuscomputing.com.au/gallery2/main.php

Hints & Tips (temporary link, as under construction): http://canopuscomputing.com.au/index.php?p=1_9



Bird Control Officers on active service.

Member of UK (and abroad) Photo Safari Group
 
John King said:
Perhaps the moderators at DPR are enforcing a "zero tolerance" policy
in relation to calling people names and failing to behave in an
acceptable manner - as per Mr Askey's dictum on the Canon Pro forum
... here:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1032&message=29365755&changemode=1

Just a thought ...
Click to expand...
And that is why I love these forums, the best playground around. Check out these DPR rules for starters

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/rules.asp?forum=1000

"Bashing - Deliberately and repeatedly bashing the same brand, product or company will get you banned. If you have a complaint or comment to make then make it once and make sure you have facts to support it."

Examples:
--------
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=28794906
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=29206512
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=29290210
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=28940855
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=28947692

Ironically, after the last link let us not point fingers and see this - "trolls ALWAYS compare the tiny sensor with the huge FF"

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=29189970

"Bumping - Deliberately 'bumping' your message back to the top of the forum with no new content."

Examples:
--------
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=29401456
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=29403234
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=29404045

It says - "If you have a complaint or comment to make then make it once and make sure you have facts to support it.". Well how many facts does one need??

Phil, are you reading this?

-
 
Louis_Dobson said:
That's the virtue. Frankly I think the people buying an E3 and
attaching huge f2 lenses to it are making an eccentric choice - a
D700 with f2.8s will be no bigger and will do the same job better in
my opinion, but each to their own.

E3+7-14+12-60+50-200 remains a superb quality system however, that
produces great results in reasonable light and won't break your back.

Shoot a lot in bad light, and frankly it is notso hotso.
Click to expand...
I agree with the above statement. I am a Canon 20D user and my brother is Oly user with E3+12-60+50-200. I always keep my eye on the Olympus systems, because I see the size/weight advantage of my brother's setup and the very good IQ it delivers. Naturally every now and then I look at what it would take to switch my gear to Olympus, but things get very expensive when choosing f/2 or f/2.8 glass above the E3+7-14+12-60+50-200 combo. All the f/2 lenses are just as big and heavy - if not more than FF Canons/Nikons. I would say that for people that do not need anything better than the range and IQ of E3+7-14+12-60+50-200, there's nothing that can beat Olympus. If your primary use would be with f/2 or f/2.8 lenses, than you can get a cheaper FF system with other manufacturers and the benefit of larger sensors to match the expensive glass. There are also many other technical and subjective reasons that people use in their decission making: e.g. DOF preference, weathersealing, ergonomics, brand loyalty, white vs. black lens color :), access to service centers, rentals, personal image,....
 
I think Oly and Pana are at the sweet spot right now with the Microfourthirds. They have a size and cost advantage due to smaller sensor. They have a leap-and-bound advantage with the DSL model (without the R). I'm going to be buying a DSL based on microfourthirds myself as soon as the 20mm f1.7 and video support come out (I'd say spring).

That said, I'd ideally prefer full frame because I love shooting low light without flash (i find flash rude) and love shallow depth of field and dynamic range. I wouldn't want a chip bigger than 35mm full frame because the depth of field would be too shallow and I wouldn't need more dynamic range, low light capability, or megapixel capacity than 35mm offers. But I wouldn't buy full frame right now for 2 reasons:
  • it's too expensive
  • it's based on dinosaur, dslr technology and thus big and noisy (the mirror slap is also rude)
I hope 3 or 4 years down the line, Panasonic and Olympus develop a full frame 35mm equiv system - but without the mirror. That will make the size perfect and if the cost is under $1500 - I'm in.

The 35mm frame is ideal for me also because I don't use zoom lenses. I prefer prime lenses and my favorite prime is 40mm (20mm on fourthirds). I don't believe you gain much size advantage with microfourthirds on normal prime lenses assuming both systems are using DSL (mirrorless)

In summary, I'd like oly and pana to share 2 lines of systems and have 3 lines in general:
  • A full frame, DSL based system for pros
  • a medium frame (fourthirds), dsl based system for adv. amateurs
  • a compact frame with lenses attached for general consumers
Here's to the end of terribly rude mirrors

--
Rishi O'
http://www.rishio.com
 
SirSeth said:
Why don't you buy a 35mm DSLR,,,, Johnathan?

Cheerio,
Seth
Click to expand...
How does that solve Olympus's problem with meeting the competition's performance level?
--



'I cried because I had no E-3. Then I met a man with no E-510'

Olympus E-410, E-330, Nikon D100 (IR) & Pentax K20D.
57 lenses of various types from most brands.
 
Louis_Dobson said:
That's the choices really.

With 4/3rds you can have superb lenses that are a reasonable weight,
but high ISO performance is not wonderful.

With 35mmFF you can have superb lenses, but they weigh a ton and cost
a bomb, or else fairly cruddy lenses. High ISO is good though.

APS-C offers marginally better high ISO performance than 4/3rds but
much worse than 35mm, and the lens choices are all over the map.

My advice would be:

If you have to carry the cameras much and can shoot mainly in
daylight, 4/3rds.
Click to expand...
There is still the issue of shadow noise and banding, even in daylight.

--



'I cried because I had no E-3. Then I met a man with no E-510'

Olympus E-410, E-330, Nikon D100 (IR) & Pentax K20D.
57 lenses of various types from most brands.
 
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