Canon has succeeded

bobn2 · Sep 14, 2008

Luciano Morpurgo said:
Luciano Morpurgo said:

38mp? Now? Never going to happen!!! Stop dreaming.

Click to expand...

I'm very far from dreaming such as thing I'd be happy with the
same 15/16Mp on full frame... I just pointed out how many pixels the
FF should have to have the same pixel size as the 50D. This means
that pixels on 5dII will be actually bigger, so better quality than
50d.

'Quality' has little to do with pixel size. The crucial thing is that the 5DII will have a larger sensor than the 50D, therefore you'll tend to use the images at lower magnification, therefore the quality will appear better.

Luciano Morpurgo said:
Luciano Morpurgo said:

Luciano Morpurgo said:

Luciano Morpurgo said:

I have decided to keep my 1Ds2 and 40D for a long time. I might pick
up 50D if price is right but I am not in the hurry.
Or I might just sell everything and move to Sony.

Click to expand...

Even the 50D seem to have better quality than sony...(except
resolution), you might want to wait a couple of weeks to see some
5DII samples around

Click to expand...

What are you basing your statement on?

Click to expand...

I wouldnt call it a "statement", that's why I wrote "seems to have".
I'm actually waiting for some more consistent samples taken from raw
and processed with ACR or whatsoever. But I'm seeing less noise in
the 50D jpg samples than in sony's... the premises look good for
canon then.

The more rigorous tests seem to be indicating that in raw the A900 is at least a match for the 1DsIII. However, the JPEG engine seems to be a dog. The 50D's performance, however seems to depend on a JPEG engine which applies lashings of NR. This isn't much of a pointer for the 5D replacement, since my guess would be that at this end of the market people are more interested in RAW performance than noise reduced JPEGs.

Luciano Morpurgo said:
--
http://www.lucianomorpurgo.com/foto.html

--
Bob

brianric · Sep 14, 2008

In the real world what happened in the past is irrelevant. I happen to be a Canon user and unloaded more Canon gear then most Canon users on this forum have. My Nikon D700 is better than my former 5D at ISO above 800. My D700 is better than my 1DMkIII above ISO 1600. The D700 is cleaner at ISO 6400 than my 1DMKIII at 3200. The Nikon flash system puts Canon flash system to shame. Some Cannon users can't accept the fact that Canon sat on their butt and blew their once big lead in the sports/PJ market. As I said before, the only reason why I haven't switched 100% to Nikon is my 50L, 85L, 135L, and 70-200/4.0 IS.

Next year I'll fill the remaining holes in my Nikon line up with the 14-24/2.8 and 70-200/2.8 VR. At that point I unload my Canon 16-35 MKII, 24-105 IS, and 70-200/2.8 IS. I'll always keep a Canon because of my primes, but the next camera may still end up being a Nikon.

jayman007 said:
Why would a Canon user use an inferior product ? Doesn't make sense.
Still, there are some people that believe the world is flat. It has
taken Nikon quite a while to produce a halfway decent sensor, and I
can understand their frustration.

Michael_J · Sep 14, 2008

They were so far behind Canon and Nikon they HAD to let everyone know what they were doing - the last thing they wanted was to take everyone by "surprise" -- AFTER everyone already bought a new Nikon or Canon!

Eugene Powers said:
peed off many people. I don't like Canon's tactics. Sony had 24mp
sensor since at least Jan of this year and everyone new that new
camera is going to be FF 24mp even though the name was still in the
air. They kept their word and now Sony has highest 35mm MP camera on
the market. In fact they might have highest 35mm MP camera for a long
time.
Canon on the other hand is keeping everyone in the dark and most
likely upcoming cameras are going to be disappointments

I would love to borrow your crystal ball sometime, like the day before a supper lottery drawing.

but of course

Member said:
fanboys will make glory out of them.

If they can "make glory" out of disappointing cameras, they must be pretty damn good photographers.

Member said:
I have decided to keep my 1Ds2 and 40D for a long time. I might pick
up 50D if price is right but I am not in the hurry.

So you have 2 perfectly good working cameras and all you can do is b itch?

Member said:
Or I might just sell everything and move to Sony.

So you haven't decided anything. Don't forget to write, if you decide to jump ship.

Member said:
I don't like
surprises and deceits like in case of 1DMK3. If I had to go through
this focusing problem I would have camp at Canon's repair facility
until they fix it.

But you didn't.

Member said:
--
Eugene

--
People who claim to be open minded never see it my way.

Michael_J · Sep 14, 2008

Taikonaut said:
Sounds like you are bitter over having forked out so much for a 1Dx
Canon is now releasing a vastly improved 5D replacement that trumps
all their current 1Dx at a much lower cost.

Only someone born yesterday, with no understanding of technology product cycles, would be "bitter" over what they paid for a product - when the new model is released.

BYW - How do you know the "vastly" improved 5D replacement will trump all (2) of the current 1Dx's (1DMKIII - 1DsMKIII)? Will the the "vastly" improved 5D replacement do better than 10 fps?

What about people who buy the D3 or A900? Will they be "bitter" in the future too?

Taikonaut said:
Don't worry you are not
alone.

Oh, so now it's "OK" to be bitter because others are bitter as well??!!

--
People who claim to be open minded never see it my way.

Michael_J · Sep 14, 2008

Kodak used to have a FF DSLR - I believe it even had a higher pixel count than the measly 11mp 1Ds --- 14mp or so.

Wow, I haven't checked out Kodak's DSLR's for years, they must have some AWESOME cameras by now. I'll bet by now they have at least a 30mp moster FF with ISO's in the 51200 range.

Let's see... Camera Database - click
Kodak - click

.... HEY?! Where are all the Kodak DSLR's?!!!!

PaigeC said:
I'm sure most of you don't remember the old once very successful
computer company - Osborne and their "Osborne 1" computer. They
developed the very new and advanced Osborne Executive and announced
it a year before it was going to be available. This killed the sales
of the Osborne 1 and the company failed before having a chance to
sell more than a few of the new models.

Those who ignore history are destined to repeat it.....

I have a Canon 5D, 20D, 10D and more that a dozen compatable lenses.
All bodies and lenses are working fine and will continue to be used
for a while longer.

I plan to purchase the new Canon 50D 1st qtr of next year and also
the replacement for my great 5D some time next year - depending on
the reviews.

As for now I'm busy trying to learn to use the cameras I already own.

Have a nice day

Paige Chandler

http://www.pixelsbypaige.com/

--
[email protected]

--
People who claim to be open minded never see it my way.

Colossus · Sep 14, 2008

brianric said:
To a certain point that's true, but if you have a sizeable lens
collection in one system it becomes harder to switch, especially if
it is a hobby.

The interesting thing about that is that there are people regularly saying on these forums that used, high quality lenses can be sold for nearly as much and sometimes just as much as they cost new. So, it shouldn't be a problem to sell the lenses and switch brands.

I've seen some people say they're used to a certain brand and don't like the idea of having to get used to a different brand. I would think that anyone who knows how to use a camera, and especially a DSLR would easily be able to adapt to a different brand within a very short time. They're just not that different.

For instance, I could get into any vehicle and drive it just fine in a matter of seconds. It doesn't matter where the headlight light switch is or where the buttons or levers are that make the seats go back and forth. I'll figure that out real fast. It doesn't even matter if the steering wheel is on the left side or the right side. I've driven both and it's no big deal. A camera isn't any more difficult than a car and usually is a lot easier to get used to.

Locking yourself into one brand and finding excuses to not switch is a self defeating exercise. Just imagine doing that with everything you ever own.

brianric said:
Colossus said:

Being brand loyal just plays into their hands and it's what they're
hoping for from as many followers as they can recruit. Companies like
Canon are fully aware of the fanboy, follower, brand loyal mentality
of many people and they take as much advantage of it as they can.
They give you just enough to keep you coming back to spend more
money, and they lead you along with a carrot just in front of your
face that you're always trying to reach. Just look at the current ad
on the Canon site about evolution.

Canon isn't the only company taking advantage of people but they sure
are good at it, and their success at it is only possible because
people fall for it. In fact, many people jump onto the brand-loyal
bandwagon as eagerly as a starving kid going for a candy bar.

Cameras are just a product, from a company that makes money selling
them. Why would they give you more when you're willing to settle for
less? Think about it.

Click to expand...

--

Eugene Powers · Sep 14, 2008

Kodak used to be the King of the hill. They used to modify Canon and Nikon cameras and sell them for as much as $34,000 for "only" 6mps.

--
Eugene

The only time a smaller sensor with the same pixel count is superior to a larger sensor (aka higher pixel density) is when you are focal-length limited.

Lee Jay

Eugene Powers · Sep 14, 2008

Michael_J said:
Eugene Powers said:

peed off many people. I don't like Canon's tactics. Sony had 24mp
sensor since at least Jan of this year and everyone new that new
camera is going to be FF 24mp even though the name was still in the
air. They kept their word and now Sony has highest 35mm MP camera on
the market. In fact they might have highest 35mm MP camera for a long
time.
Canon on the other hand is keeping everyone in the dark and most
likely upcoming cameras are going to be disappointments

Click to expand...

I would love to borrow your crystal ball sometime, like the day
before a supper lottery drawing.

Will you pay me 50% of your winning?

Michael_J said:
but of course

Michael_J said:

fanboys will make glory out of them.

Click to expand...

If they can "make glory" out of disappointing cameras, they must be
pretty damn good photographers.

Or just fanboys.

Michael_J said:
Michael_J said:

I have decided to keep my 1Ds2 and 40D for a long time. I might pick
up 50D if price is right but I am not in the hurry.

Click to expand...

So you have 2 perfectly good working cameras and all you can do is b
itch?

About what? I am just defending Sony decision.

Michael_J said:
Michael_J said:

Or I might just sell everything and move to Sony.

Click to expand...

So you haven't decided anything. Don't forget to write, if you decide
to jump ship.

I will. I promise.

Michael_J said:
Michael_J said:

I don't like
surprises and deceits like in case of 1DMK3. If I had to go through
this focusing problem I would have camp at Canon's repair facility
until they fix it.

Click to expand...

But you didn't.

I never bought 1dmk3 either. But if I did and if I had a problem I would.

Michael_J said:
Michael_J said:

--
Eugene

Click to expand...

--
People who claim to be open minded never see it my way.

--
Eugene

The only time a smaller sensor with the same pixel count is superior to a larger sensor (aka higher pixel density) is when you are focal-length limited.

Lee Jay

Bob Jameson · Sep 14, 2008

Taikonaut said:
Bob Jameson said:

Suceeded in what?

There ain't no camera yet. Granted, the new 5DII has 20+ MP and
1080P video, is that what you call, success?

For all I know, with that specs, there will be several unhappy
Canonites and the Nikonites will be LOL in Canons direction to up the
MP race.

Click to expand...

Why post here?
Insecurity from a Nikon troll?

Stick with the subject matter, dammit!

I have a Canon, why can't I post here?

You felt hurt, ha? The fanboy in you is too visible right now.

brianric · Sep 14, 2008

It is still a pain to unload equipment, especially if you never done it before.

Colossus said:
The interesting thing about that is that there are people regularly
saying on these forums that used, high quality lenses can be sold for
nearly as much and sometimes just as much as they cost new. So, it
shouldn't be a problem to sell the lenses and switch brands.

I had four Canon DSLrs and 14 Canon lenses (11 were "L" series) and three Canon flashes. I now have two Canon DSLRs, nine "L" series lenses, two Canon flashes, one Nikon D700, Nikor 24-70/2.8, SB-900 (2) and SB-600 flashes.

Colossus said:
Locking yourself into one brand and finding excuses to not switch is
a self defeating exercise. Just imagine doing that with everything
you ever own.

bionet · Sep 14, 2008

rrcphoto said:
doubtful. considering that canon has the technology now to deliver a
40Mp FF sensor without much of an issue, and sony's sensor doesn't
even match a generation old cmos canon sensor.

The sensor seems to be up to par with other current products. It's just the JFIF engine that causes bad raw conversions.

A lot of Canon's reputation was built up by their very sophisticated internal conversion.

JEverett · Sep 14, 2008

Colossus said:
JEverett said:

It's this upgrading in drips and drabs that gets my goat, and it
seems to me that the technology is being doled out intentionally
slowly in order to soak consumers for the most $$ with the least
amount of effort, so they can have a new upgrade every year that's
not even really that big of an upgrade. I can't escape the notion
that we're all being played, especially the more brand-loyal folks among us.

Click to expand...

Take a real good look at what you wrote, and at your signature line.
Companies love people like you. You show all the signs of someone who
is easily duped into some weird sort of alliegence to a brand, and
feels the need to upgrade constantly for no good reason.

You are being played, but you're asking to be played. You can't be
played unless you let it happen. You're the one responsible for your
decisions and actions. When you let others think for you, they will
manipulate you in every way they can. In this case you're letting a
camera company direct you and brainwash you into being one of their
pawns, yet you're complaining about it.

Photography has nothing to do with brand loyalty or upgrading just so
you can feel like your new toy is the coolest, or superior to some
other person's toy. If you and all the gear geek fanboys would quit
buying cameras and lenses that have little or nothing new to offer,
or are overpriced or unreliable, the camera companies would have to
make them with better features, more reliability, and lower prices
and we would all be better off.

Those of you who settle for mediocrity, and upgrade for no good
reason, and are "brand-loyal" are ruining it for the rest of us.

Colossus said:

That's what I like about the new Sony. It's a REAL, tactile leap in
progress. Not the next tiny step in the intermittent march of lame
upgrades.
--
Joel

Never stop upgrading.

Click to expand...

--
Joel

Never stop upgrading.

Actually my sig-tag is a response to people like you, it's a joke.

Thanks for obliging. ::thumbs-up::

jayman007 · Sep 14, 2008

brianric said:
In the real world what happened in the past is irrelevant. I happen
to be a Canon user and unloaded more Canon gear then most Canon users
on this forum have. My Nikon D700 is better than my former 5D at ISO
above 800. My D700 is better than my 1DMkIII above ISO 1600. The D700
is cleaner at ISO 6400 than my 1DMKIII at 3200. The Nikon flash
system puts Canon flash system to shame. Some Cannon users can't
accept the fact that Canon sat on their butt and blew their once big
lead in the sports/PJ market. As I said before, the only reason why I
haven't switched 100% to Nikon is my 50L, 85L, 135L, and 70-200/4.0
IS.
Good Afternoon Again :> )

I would hope that Nikon would finally catch up to Canon & eventually pass them at some point in time. However, it did take Nikon 3 years to finally produce a camera that was as good as what Canon had years earlier. Of course, Canon's top gun, the 1DsMIII, is something Nikon should shoot for, but then again, they wouldn't know where to even begin lol

brianric said:
Next year I'll fill the remaining holes in my Nikon line up with the
14-24/2.8 and 70-200/2.8 VR. At that point I unload my Canon 16-35
MKII, 24-105 IS, and 70-200/2.8 IS. I'll always keep a Canon because
of my primes, but the next camera may still end up being a Nikon.

If anything my friend, definitely hold on to the 70-200 f4 IS. That lens is incredibly sharp wide open, at any fl.
Have a good afternoon,
Jim...

brianric said:
jayman007 said:

Why would a Canon user use an inferior product ? Doesn't make sense.
Still, there are some people that believe the world is flat. It has
taken Nikon quite a while to produce a halfway decent sensor, and I
can understand their frustration.

Click to expand...

--

Luciano Morpurgo · Sep 14, 2008

bobn2 said:
'Quality' has little to do with pixel size. The crucial thing is that
the 5DII will have a larger sensor than the 50D, therefore you'll
tend to use the images at lower magnification, therefore the quality
will appear better.

I'm not following you here... you just use shorter focal lengths with cropped sensor and that's it (DOF apart). Anyway bigger pixel size = more dynamic range, less noise. If this has little to do with quality, considering almost double the size, well...

Luc
--
http://www.lucianomorpurgo.com/foto.html

bobn2 · Sep 14, 2008

Luciano Morpurgo said:
bobn2 said:

'Quality' has little to do with pixel size. The crucial thing is that
the 5DII will have a larger sensor than the 50D, therefore you'll
tend to use the images at lower magnification, therefore the quality
will appear better.

Click to expand...

I'm not following you here... you just use shorter focal lengths with
cropped sensor and that's it (DOF apart). Anyway bigger pixel size =
more dynamic range, less noise. If this has little to do with
quality, considering almost double the size, well...

Luc
--
http://www.lucianomorpurgo.com/foto.html

You've got it back to front. It's a bigger sensor size that gives more dynamic range, less noise and so on. If you choose to increase the sensor size and keep the pixel count the same, obviously the pixels have to get larger, and individually contribute more to the overall SNR and DR. However, if you chose to keep the pixels the same size, you'd end up with more of them. Print the same size and you find that the noise and DR from the big pixel and little pixel sensor is the same, just the little pixel sensor has more detail. Obviously, to keep FoV the same, you need to increase the focal length. If you want to keep DoF the same you'll need to use a smaller f-number on the small sensor, which, it turns out, equalises the amount of light incident on the sensor, and thus will result in the same overall noise/DR, provided that the small sensor doesn't max out and you've got lenses of higher f-number to use.

The thing in the end is that it is the overall amount of light incident on the sensor which determines the image shot noise and DR. How that is partitioned is of little consequence to the overall picture.
--
Bob

David Hull · Sep 14, 2008

Well.... That is exactly what they are trying to avoid. They want you lusting after what they have now

.

David Hull · Sep 14, 2008

Regarding the Canon XXD lines and the Nikon DXXX lines which seem to be targeted similarly, Canon has come out with 5 cameras (10D -- 50D) in roughly the same parios of time that Nikon has engineered 3 cameras (D100 -- D300). Canon appear to have taken the approach of producing more models with a more incremental upgrade approach.

Don_D · Sep 14, 2008

Colossus said:
Cameras are just a product, from a company that makes money selling
them. Why would they give you more when you're willing to settle for
less? Think about it.

Competitiion and the fact that I'm not the only one buying the product?

You talk as if consumers that are brand loyal are the only buyers.

I don't think that companies in a highly competitive environment such as DSLRs hold back anything. If they have it, it will go into some product(s).

Think about it.

--
Don

carlk · Sep 14, 2008

It sure looks you're the one that's hurt. 12MP is really not something good enough to boost your ego isn't it? The hardest part is to try to pretend it's exactly what you wanted while it is not.

Bob Jameson said:
Taikonaut said:

Bob Jameson said:

Suceeded in what?

There ain't no camera yet. Granted, the new 5DII has 20+ MP and
1080P video, is that what you call, success?

For all I know, with that specs, there will be several unhappy
Canonites and the Nikonites will be LOL in Canons direction to up the
MP race.

Click to expand...

Why post here?
Insecurity from a Nikon troll?

Click to expand...

Stick with the subject matter, dammit!

I have a Canon, why can't I post here?

You felt hurt, ha? The fanboy in you is too visible right now.

john120588 · Sep 14, 2008

y in the

jayman007 said:
industry. This is one reason why the 5D update is long over due. When
Canon makes the announcement in a few days, those who have jumped
ship will wonder why they did.
Have a good evening,
Jim...

after the new 7D come out, do you think they will use poor AF system from 50D? I still see poor samples from their offical site, or will they moveup to the 1dm3 AF system? will they finally got it right this time? but if 1dm3 has state of the art auto focus does that mean it will be in the between?

Canon has succeeded

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