Lower MP = better ISO? Why not?

Kelton Sweet

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I am impressed with the hi-ISO performance of these latest sensors, but I wonder how much better this performance would be if we kept it to 8mp or even 6mp!

Would we have usable iso 12,800???... in a consumer dSLR?

Are these ever increasing megapixels based purely on marketing?
 
I think DSLR designs are managing to keep a sensible balance between Mp/ISO/DR.

The problem is in small sensor cameras which pretend to achieve the same numbers with sensors that are a fraction of the size.

Not that I am against compacts, I have a wonderful one but being a few years old it is only 4Mp and gets reasonable results at the resolution. Unfortunatly I cannot replace it!
 
I don't think lower the MP is needed, since you can combine your own process of using noise reduction software, then resize the eg. 21MP to 6MP. That's should be enough to eliminate most of the noise.

EL
 
The FZ50 2µm pixels capture more photons per area for a given
exposure than any DSLR in existence. So these small pixels
seem to be a benefit, probably due to it being easier to make
microlenses for small pixels.

For the noise added when reading out pixels from the sensor,
it is more complicated, but again it seems making small pixels
doesn't hurt. With current technology, when less charge is read
out, less noise is added to the signal.

Here's a demonstration:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=28760503

That's a worst case for a small-pixel camera, up against Canon's CMOS
technology with it active pixels cancelling the reset noise. Back off 2m
(6') from your monitor to simulate a print, a super-high-res monitor or a
good downsampling and tell me which one looks better?

Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden
 
The FZ50 2µm pixels capture more photons per area for a given
exposure than any DSLR in existence. So these small pixels
seem to be a benefit, probably due to it being easier to make
microlenses for small pixels.

For the noise added when reading out pixels from the sensor,
it is more complicated, but again it seems making small pixels
doesn't hurt. With current technology, when less charge is read
out, less noise is added to the signal.

Here's a demonstration:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=28760503

That's a worst case for a small-pixel camera, up against Canon's CMOS
technology with it active pixels cancelling the reset noise. Back off 2m
(6') from your monitor to simulate a print, a super-high-res monitor
or a
good downsampling and tell me which one looks better?
One has to ask the obvious, if panasonic make the most efficient sensors in the digital world, why then does this advantage not present itself in the real world cameras that they produce or make sensors for?

--



I am not the 'Ghost Hunter', nor am I the Irish actor in the 'Quiet Man' ;-)
 
I am impressed with the hi-ISO performance of these latest sensors,
but I wonder how much better this performance would be if we kept it
to 8mp or even 6mp!
none - I assume.

It is the total area of the sensor that matters for how many photons are captured - and modern sensors has very little noise.

So - making fewer pixels on the same area does not improve a thing - on the contrary - it will reduce resolution.

Then - of course - there is always a limit for max number of pixels.

But the 10 MP or more tiny sensor cameras shows that DSLR with their huge sensors has a long way to go until hitting the roof - no problems to make it at least 100 MP.

--
Roland
 
But the 10 MP or more tiny sensor cameras shows that DSLR with their
huge sensors has a long way to go until hitting the roof - no
problems to make it at least 100 MP.
Perhaps, but not practical. You have to consider the diffraction limitations.
 
But the 10 MP or more tiny sensor cameras shows that DSLR with their
huge sensors has a long way to go until hitting the roof - no
problems to make it at least 100 MP.
Perhaps, but not practical. You have to consider the diffraction
limitations.
More to the point, try finding a lens that could resolve anywhere near that, on a larger FF or small digicam sensor.

You will be looking a long long time.

Hence, the mp race will cease to be of practical use at some point. Maybe now would be a good time to decide IQ isnt just resolution.

--



I am not the 'Ghost Hunter', nor am I the Irish actor in the 'Quiet Man' ;-)
 
More to the point, try finding a lens that could resolve anywhere
near that, on a larger FF or small digicam sensor.
They're probably out there. By my calculations, 100MP would require about 170 lp/mm resolution on a 24x36mm monochrome sensor. With a Bayer pattern, it's probably more like 120 lp/mm. That's well within reason, at least for the central resolution of a fast, well corrected lens. ISTR that Zeiss was claiming resolution of over 250 lp/mm for some of their top of the line lenses.
--

As with all creative work, the craft must be adequate for the demands of expression. I am disturbed when I find craft relegated to inferior consideration; I believe that the euphoric involvement with subject or self is not sufficient to justify the making and display of photographic images. --Ansel Adams
 
One has to ask the obvious, if panasonic make the most efficient
sensors in the digital world, why then does this advantage not
present itself in the real world cameras that they produce or make
sensors for?
That's been answered many times before, in threads you have participated in.

Panasonic's style of JPEG noise reduction loses a lot of detail while not really reducing the noise very much. Most other companies also lose a lot of detail, but manage to lose the visibility of noise in the process.

Deep in the shadows, such as in the fish' breast and its shadow, have horizontal streaks of noise which keep the image from being as good as it can be, but this is not a result of pixel size, as it has nothing to do with shot noise. It is purely a read noise artifact, and could probably be eliminated with a little more money spent on the electronics.

--
John

 
Then the base ISO should be higher and it is not.
It is. The base ISO of the FZ50 is 200 by DSLR standards, but they meter for ISO 100, compared to what would be done on a DSLR, which has a stop more RAW headroom. Unlike DSLRs which start "officially" at 200, but have extended modes of 160 and 125 with reduced RAW headroom, the FZ50 doesn't have enough headroom to do anything that could be called a useful ISO 160 (by DSLR standards).

Now, a camera could have high base ISO in a compromised manner; IOW, the photosites themselves could be much smaller than the pixel pitch allows, but efficient microlenses could fill them up quickly, meaning lots of shot noise. This is not the case for the FZ50, however, as its maximum photon collection per unit of area is the same as the best DSLRs with the biggest pixels (about 1200 per square micron).

--
John

 
But the 10 MP or more tiny sensor cameras shows that DSLR with their
huge sensors has a long way to go until hitting the roof - no
problems to make it at least 100 MP.
Perhaps, but not practical. You have to consider the diffraction
limitations.
Diffraction limits are not hard limits. They just mean that the maximum contrast for high resolutions drops more rapidly above a certain frequency, but fine pixel pitch does not makes resolution worse. On the contrary, big pixels contribute more to lack of resolution and can only dwarf the fixed diffraction in comparison, to make it look like diffraction is not an issue at a given aperture. Choosing big pixels to evade diffraction does more to lose subject detail than diffraction does.

And don't forget; this isn't film. Loss of contrast at high frequencies can be salvaged to some degree by software.

--
John

 
Choosing big pixels to evade diffraction does more to lose subject
detail than diffraction does.
IOW, the diffraction limit sets the absolute upper bound. If your pixel pitch is coarser than the diffraction limit, you're not getting everything your lens can deliver.
--

As with all creative work, the craft must be adequate for the demands of expression. I am disturbed when I find craft relegated to inferior consideration; I believe that the euphoric involvement with subject or self is not sufficient to justify the making and display of photographic images. --Ansel Adams
 
Diffraction limits are not hard limits. They just mean that the
maximum contrast for high resolutions drops more rapidly above a
certain frequency, but fine pixel pitch does not makes resolution
worse. On the contrary, big pixels contribute more to lack of
resolution and can only dwarf the fixed diffraction in comparison, to
make it look like diffraction is not an issue at a given aperture.
Choosing big pixels to evade diffraction does more to lose subject
detail than diffraction does.

And don't forget; this isn't film. Loss of contrast at high
frequencies can be salvaged to some degree by software.
This is what Adox say about using their CMS film..specialist stuff now, very high resolution (though I would take with a pinch of salt most film/lens makers res claims)

http://www.adox.de/english/ADOX_Films/ADOX_Films/ADOX_CMS_Films.html

Let us explain this to you:

If you want high resolution pictures you need to open your lens aperture to one stop below maximum opening. Otherwise the lens defraction will lower your lens' resolution down to half of what this film can capture. Best lenses are F1,4 high speed high quality lenses like Nikkors, Summiluxes, Zeiss, Rokkors or Canon lenses.
This puts you effectively to between F2 and F4.

--



I am not the 'Ghost Hunter', nor am I the Irish actor in the 'Quiet Man' ;-)
 
Perhaps, but not practical. You have to consider the diffraction
limitations.
More to the point, try finding a lens that could resolve anywhere
near that, on a larger FF or small digicam sensor.
You might have to step above the kit lens a bit to fully appreciate the extra pixel density, but even the kit in its sweet spot will have slightly better resolution with a higher pixel density.
You will be looking a long long time.
Huh? The inset inside of this downsampled Canon 20D image is a 100% crop of the Tamron 90mm f/2.8 Macro with a 2x and a 1.4x converter stacked, to give a worst-case-scenario of what the lens could do at 100% pixel view with a 64 MP APS-C sensor (and don't forget that the entire image, at this magnification, would be about 9 feet wide:


Hence, the mp race will cease to be of practical use at some point.
That point is still a long distance away. Even if you go to resolutions where it takes several pixels to go from the black edge of a sharp border to the white edge at maximum contrast, you still have data that is far more rugged to survive geometric corrections like rotation, perspective distortion, CA correction, resampling, etc. The issues of storage and memory and processor speed may be a problem before the issue of nearly redundant data.
Maybe now would be a good time to decide IQ isnt just resolution.
It's a huge part of it, though. The FZ50 vs 400D comparison says to me that resolution, to some extent, is more valuable than low noise. There really is more read noise, integrated, per unit of area, at ISO 1600 in the FZ50 version, but the real problem with noise, IMO, is how it obscures detail, and noise is in competition with detail at different resolutions or frequencies in an image. The bigger pixels simply have NO detail at higher resolutions, so lower noise does nothing for them at higher frequencies.

--
John

 
More to the point, try finding a lens that could resolve anywhere
near that, on a larger FF or small digicam sensor.
They're probably out there. By my calculations, 100MP would require
about 170 lp/mm resolution on a 24x36mm monochrome sensor. With a
Bayer pattern, it's probably more like 120 lp/mm. That's well within
reason, at least for the central resolution of a fast, well corrected
lens. ISTR that Zeiss was claiming resolution of over 250 lp/mm for
some of their top of the line lenses.
It takes about 6 pixels to properly resolve a line pair, without aliasing pixels wide. So, at 22.5 mm wide, you'd need an image 22.5*6*250 = 33,750

At a 3:2 aspect ratio, that would be about 33,750*33,750*0.667 = 759 MP. If you drop your standards to take 4 pixels to resolve, then you still have 759*4/9 = 337.5 MP.

--
John

 
Choosing big pixels to evade diffraction does more to lose subject
detail than diffraction does.
IOW, the diffraction limit sets the absolute upper bound. If your
pixel pitch is coarser than the diffraction limit, you're not getting
everything your lens can deliver.
Not exactly. Things rarely work within such a brick-wall paradigm.

You can still hear the difference between a medium-quality stereo and a high quality stereo through Yorx speakers; the difference is just less pronounced than if you were using high-end speakers.

The softness introduced by optical components adds just like noise; in quadrature.

If you have two aspects of the optics which diffuse the photon path, they will combine maximally when they are equal, and when one is much greater than the other, the latter's contribution will still be there, but in a smaller contribution than their isolated ratios would suggest. So, ignoring the issue of noise, the finer the pixel pitch, the higher the resolution, but above a certain range of pixel pitches, the benefit starts to approach the infinitesimal.

--
John

 
This is what Adox say about using their CMS film..specialist stuff
now, very high resolution (though I would take with a pinch of salt
most film/lens makers res claims)

http://www.adox.de/english/ADOX_Films/ADOX_Films/ADOX_CMS_Films.html
Thanks for the link. I have a Pentax Film camera here that I was considering using for things not yet practical with digital, and shooting film like this sounds like what I had in mind. However, the relevance of this article is totally askew to what we are talking about.
Let us explain this to you:
If you want high resolution pictures you need to open your lens
aperture to one stop below maximum opening. Otherwise the lens
defraction will lower your lens' resolution down to half of what this
film can capture. Best lenses are F1,4 high speed high quality lenses
like Nikkors, Summiluxes, Zeiss, Rokkors or Canon lenses.
This puts you effectively to between F2 and F4.
This has nothing at all to do with the issue of varying capture resolution, however, and what its affects are on the final product. They are simply telling how to vary aperture to get the most potential resolution with the film.

--
John

 

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