7i review is a bit deceiving - What's up Phil?

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As far as the resolution tests go, I have been A/B'ing the chart shots between the f707 and the Dimage 7i to see what's up with this resolution issue. After all, if it's the same ccd it should be identical, or at least close! What did I find? The resolution of the 2 shots is, for the most part, identical. If you compare the numbers and lines on the chart you'll find that not one area of the sony's sample is even 1% sharper than the Minolta's. They are the same. The only difference is that in the extreme high resolution areas of the chart the sony begins interpolating to give the appearance of higher resolution (which should only work for extreme contrast areas) when in fact, in real world situations, this will never add to the apparent detail of the image. In fact, it kind of reminds me of the battle between 3d video accellerators...where mfgrs would tune their cards to perform exquisitely on popular benchmarks, when in fact they were underperforming in real world tasks. For the most part, both Sony's and Minolta's lenses exceed the resolution of their CCD (Minolta claims 7-megapixel+ resolution for the D5,7,7i lens)...and in real world situations they both resolve the same amount of detail (more or less). Just look at the numbers and dashes listed on the resolution chart (outside of the converging lines)...the Sony sample is identical to the Minolta's. According to Phil's comparison the sony's should be sharper. IT IS NOT! This test is grossly misleading!

Another issue is Phil's criticism of Minolta's RAW format image size. The file size is actually smaller than the TIFF size, and Phil is complaining that he can't imagine where the large file size is coming from. He says that based on the effective resolution of the CCD's output, and Minolta's 12-bit format the file size should only be 7 megabytes+. What he is overlooking is the fact that EACH PIXEL is represented by 36-bits of information (12 bits per primary - RGB), thus making each pixel a 36-bit pixel (not 12 - 12 only represents one third of the pixel - RGB remember) which would give a resulting file size of approximately 21 megabytes+. Most image formats utilize some form of compression (in the case of JPG it is lossy, in the case of TIFF it is not) and Minolta has actually managed lossless compression on their images - achiving a file size of less than half that of the original. This is, in effect, more efficient than TIFF and actually deserves merit. Minolta is preserving the original 12 bits per pixel. Why is Canon's RAW format smaller? They are only saving 8 bits per pixel (24 bit images). Why is this useful to us? If you have an underexposed image, you can adjust the levels to bring out the lost detail and still maintain 24 image quality when you export to JPG (or other 24 bit format). When you play with levels in a 24 bit image you are effectively reducing the bit depth of the image data (dynamic range). So those of you out there with complaints about Minolta's dynamic range (just look at the Nikon's! they're the worst) just learn to shoot in RAW mode, underexpose to save your highlights, and use the levels to bring back the shadow detail that appears lost. At 12-bits per primary the dynamic range is far higher than at 8 bits per primary (if you know anything about binary numbers you'll see it's exponential (4096 levels of luminance per primary compared to only 256 levels for a regular 24 bit image). By the time you squash most underexposed images you'll still exceed 24 bit color fidelity. If Minolta should get any criticism for their RAW format it's that it doesn't offer enough flexibility for extraction! Perhaps somebody knowledgeable in programming can give us an alternative - I for one will be willing to pay!

As for the noise, it really isn't that bad - but the superficial buzz about it has indeed sent me looking for an alternative to the 7i. For $1000 or less their simply isn't one. Nothing compares. So for those of you complaining about this and that, especially those of you using Phil's review to back up your arguments - learn to understand what you're reading before you start trying to influence other people's opinions. I too would like to see more metal and less plastic on the 7i, and maybe a bit better internal processing on out of camera JPGs, but for what the 7i sells for it is absolutely incredible. Especially next to the competition. And as far as Phil's review goes...he is a great photographer, and most of his opinions are valid - but where the resolution is concerened, and where RAW images are concerned I think he is very misleading.

Anyway, I hope nobody was offended by this post. I am just so sick of reading about resolution complaints and the Minolta/Sony thing that I thought I'd share my findings. Aftear all, the shots in most of the Dimage galleries are awesome. Maybe the photographer is the real issue.

Shane
 
As far as the resolution tests go, I have been A/B'ing the chart
shots between the f707 and the Dimage 7i to see what's up with this
resolution issue. After all, if it's the same ccd it should be
identical, or at least close! What did I find? The resolution of
the 2 shots is, for the most part, identical. If you compare the
numbers and lines on the chart you'll find that not one area of the
sony's sample is even 1% sharper than the Minolta's. They are the
same. The only difference is that in the extreme high resolution
areas of the chart the sony begins interpolating to give the
appearance of higher resolution (which should only work for extreme
contrast areas) when in fact, in real world situations, this will
never add to the apparent detail of the image. In fact, it kind of
reminds me of the battle between 3d video accellerators...where
mfgrs would tune their cards to perform exquisitely on popular
benchmarks, when in fact they were underperforming in real world
tasks. For the most part, both Sony's and Minolta's lenses exceed
the resolution of their CCD (Minolta claims 7-megapixel+ resolution
for the D5,7,7i lens)...and in real world situations they both
resolve the same amount of detail (more or less). Just look at the
numbers and dashes listed on the resolution chart (outside of the
converging lines)...the Sony sample is identical to the Minolta's.
According to Phil's comparison the sony's should be sharper. IT IS
NOT! This test is grossly misleading!

Another issue is Phil's criticism of Minolta's RAW format image
size. The file size is actually smaller than the TIFF size, and
Phil is complaining that he can't imagine where the large file size
is coming from. He says that based on the effective resolution of
the CCD's output, and Minolta's 12-bit format the file size should
only be 7 megabytes+. What he is overlooking is the fact that EACH
PIXEL is represented by 36-bits of information (12 bits per primary
  • RGB), thus making each pixel a 36-bit pixel (not 12 - 12 only
represents one third of the pixel - RGB remember) which would give
a resulting file size of approximately 21 megabytes+. Most image
formats utilize some form of compression (in the case of JPG it is
lossy, in the case of TIFF it is not) and Minolta has actually
managed lossless compression on their images - achiving a file size
of less than half that of the original. This is, in effect, more
efficient than TIFF and actually deserves merit. Minolta is
preserving the original 12 bits per pixel. Why is Canon's RAW
format smaller? They are only saving 8 bits per pixel (24 bit
images). Why is this useful to us? If you have an underexposed
image, you can adjust the levels to bring out the lost detail and
still maintain 24 image quality when you export to JPG (or other 24
bit format). When you play with levels in a 24 bit image you are
effectively reducing the bit depth of the image data (dynamic
range). So those of you out there with complaints about Minolta's
dynamic range (just look at the Nikon's! they're the worst) just
learn to shoot in RAW mode, underexpose to save your highlights,
and use the levels to bring back the shadow detail that appears
lost. At 12-bits per primary the dynamic range is far higher than
at 8 bits per primary (if you know anything about binary numbers
you'll see it's exponential (4096 levels of luminance per primary
compared to only 256 levels for a regular 24 bit image). By the
time you squash most underexposed images you'll still exceed 24 bit
color fidelity. If Minolta should get any criticism for their RAW
format it's that it doesn't offer enough flexibility for
extraction! Perhaps somebody knowledgeable in programming can give
us an alternative - I for one will be willing to pay!

As for the noise, it really isn't that bad - but the superficial
buzz about it has indeed sent me looking for an alternative to the
7i. For $1000 or less their simply isn't one. Nothing compares.
So for those of you complaining about this and that, especially
those of you using Phil's review to back up your arguments - learn
to understand what you're reading before you start trying to
influence other people's opinions. I too would like to see more
metal and less plastic on the 7i, and maybe a bit better internal
processing on out of camera JPGs, but for what the 7i sells for it
is absolutely incredible. Especially next to the competition. And
as far as Phil's review goes...he is a great photographer, and most
of his opinions are valid - but where the resolution is concerened,
and where RAW images are concerned I think he is very misleading.

Anyway, I hope nobody was offended by this post. I am just so sick
of reading about resolution complaints and the Minolta/Sony thing
that I thought I'd share my findings. Aftear all, the shots in
most of the Dimage galleries are awesome. Maybe the photographer
is the real issue.

Shane
--Well said, Shane. Thanks for the insight.
Sol
 
Hi Shane,

Your thinking about the resolution and noise is right on. As for the RAW file size, Phil does have a point, see below.
Another issue is Phil's criticism of Minolta's RAW format image
size. The file size is actually smaller than the TIFF size, and
Phil is complaining that he can't imagine where the large file size
is coming from. He says that based on the effective resolution of
the CCD's output, and Minolta's 12-bit format the file size should
only be 7 megabytes+. What he is overlooking is the fact that EACH
PIXEL is represented by 36-bits of information (12 bits per primary
Actually, since the information is "raw" each pixel is still R, G or B, and has not been interpolated yet. Each pixel only has 12 bits of R, G or B data, not 36 bits. This should result in a file size around 7 MB ( 5MB x 12/8), but Minolta does something a little dumb (but maybe for speed) and stores each pixel in 2 bytes in the file (16 bits) instead of 12 bits, which bloats the file up with unused space to around 10MB. They could reduce the file to 7.5MB by just storing the needed data.
  • RGB), thus making each pixel a 36-bit pixel (not 12 - 12 only
represents one third of the pixel - RGB remember) which would give
a resulting file size of approximately 21 megabytes+. Most image
formats utilize some form of compression (in the case of JPG it is
lossy, in the case of TIFF it is not) and Minolta has actually
managed lossless compression on their images - achiving a file size
of less than half that of the original. This is, in effect, more
efficient than TIFF and actually deserves merit. Minolta is
preserving the original 12 bits per pixel. Why is Canon's RAW
format smaller? They are only
Actually, Canon RAW files are smaller because they run LZW compression on the file before saving it. That gets it down to 3-4MB. They still store all the data.

-Bryan

saving 8 bits per pixel (24 bit
images). Why is this useful to us? If you have an underexposed
image, you can adjust the levels to bring out the lost detail and
still maintain 24 image quality when you export to JPG (or other 24
bit format). When you play with levels in a 24 bit image you are
effectively reducing the bit depth of the image data (dynamic
range). So those of you out there with complaints about Minolta's
dynamic range (just look at the Nikon's! they're the worst) just
learn to shoot in RAW mode, underexpose to save your highlights,
and use the levels to bring back the shadow detail that appears
lost. At 12-bits per primary the dynamic range is far higher than
at 8 bits per primary (if you know anything about binary numbers
you'll see it's exponential (4096 levels of luminance per primary
compared to only 256 levels for a regular 24 bit image). By the
time you squash most underexposed images you'll still exceed 24 bit
color fidelity. If Minolta should get any criticism for their RAW
format it's that it doesn't offer enough flexibility for
extraction! Perhaps somebody knowledgeable in programming can give
us an alternative - I for one will be willing to pay!

As for the noise, it really isn't that bad - but the superficial
buzz about it has indeed sent me looking for an alternative to the
7i. For $1000 or less their simply isn't one. Nothing compares.
So for those of you complaining about this and that, especially
those of you using Phil's review to back up your arguments - learn
to understand what you're reading before you start trying to
influence other people's opinions. I too would like to see more
metal and less plastic on the 7i, and maybe a bit better internal
processing on out of camera JPGs, but for what the 7i sells for it
is absolutely incredible. Especially next to the competition. And
as far as Phil's review goes...he is a great photographer, and most
of his opinions are valid - but where the resolution is concerened,
and where RAW images are concerned I think he is very misleading.

Anyway, I hope nobody was offended by this post. I am just so sick
of reading about resolution complaints and the Minolta/Sony thing
that I thought I'd share my findings. Aftear all, the shots in
most of the Dimage galleries are awesome. Maybe the photographer
is the real issue.

Shane
 
Your thinking about the resolution and noise is right on. As for
the RAW file size, Phil does have a point, see below.
Another issue is Phil's criticism of Minolta's RAW format image
size. The file size is actually smaller than the TIFF size, and
Phil is complaining that he can't imagine where the large file size
is coming from. He says that based on the effective resolution of
the CCD's output, and Minolta's 12-bit format the file size should
only be 7 megabytes+. What he is overlooking is the fact that EACH
PIXEL is represented by 36-bits of information (12 bits per primary
Actually, since the information is "raw" each pixel is still R, G
or B, and has not been interpolated yet. Each pixel only has 12
bits of R, G or B data, not 36 bits. This should result in a file
size around 7 MB ( 5MB x 12/8), but Minolta does something a little
dumb (but maybe for speed) and stores each pixel in 2 bytes in the
file (16 bits) instead of 12 bits, which bloats the file up with
unused space to around 10MB. They could reduce the file to 7.5MB by
just storing the needed data.
Hey Bryan,

Here's my logic on this. 2560x1920 images...just under 5 million pixels. Each pixel represents a 24 bit color (originally in a camera a 36 bit color). 24 bits per pixel time 4,915,200 = 117,964,800 bits divided by 8 bits per byte = 14,745,600 bytes (or 14.4 mb for an uncompressed 24 bit TIFF file - which holds true). The RAW file preserves the original color fidelity of the CCD (the 12-bit part is similar to that of a linear CCD based scanner - a 36bit per pixel one that uses 12-bits per primary - 3 primarys creates one colored pixel). The 4,915,200 pixels that come off the CCD each consist of 3 primary colors (otherwise the final colored image would be 1/3rd the size) and each primary must be 12 bits. If the RGB pixel was 12 bits total, that would leave only 4 bits per primary which would yield a working color palette of only 512 colors (16 luminance values per primary) which would yield severe banding in gradients and shadow areas. Early digital cameras sampled only 8 bits per primary, 3 primarys per pixel - yielding true 24 bit color fidelity or 16.6 million colors. DVD's use 10 bits per primary (30 bits per pixel) and the latest incarnation of scanners and digital cameras is utilizing 12-bits per primary (36-bits per pixel). If there were only 12 bits per full color pixel the colorful 24-bit JPGs and TIFFs that come from the camera would be impossible. So I have to believe that the RAW image contains 3 seperate 12-bit values for each full color pixel, or 36-bits per colored pixel. Multiply this by 4,915,200 (because that's how many full color pixels the camera yields) and you get 176,947,200 bits...divide that by 8 bits per byte = 22,118,400 bytes or 21.6 megabytes (divide by 1024 bytes per megabyte).

Where do you get that each RAW pixel is only 12 bits total? Are you assuming that there are 5 million 12-bit pixels, or are you considering that there are 5 million 12-bit pixels times 3?

Shane
 
Hey Bryan,

Here's my logic on this. 2560x1920 images...just under 5 million
pixels. Each pixel represents a 24 bit color (originally in a
camera a 36 bit color). 24 bits per pixel time 4,915,200 =
117,964,800 bits divided by 8 bits per byte = 14,745,600 bytes (or
14.4 mb for an uncompressed 24 bit TIFF file - which holds true).
Yes, for TIFF. The TIFF file is already interpolated to 24 bit per pixel data.
The RAW file preserves the original color fidelity of the CCD (the
12-bit part is similar to that of a linear CCD based scanner - a
36bit per pixel one that uses 12-bits per primary - 3 primarys
creates one colored pixel). The 4,915,200 pixels that come off the
CCD each consist of 3 primary colors (otherwise the final colored
No. The CCD consists of an array of Red, Green and Blue pixels. 5 Million of them arranged in a Bayer pattern with R+B=G (twice as many Green as Blue or Red). (see the nice diagram Phil has on the learning section of this site). Each pixel in the Minolta camera produces 12 bits of data. The camera interpolates the real data from this "raw" data to get 24 bit per pixel color. The RAW file is just that, raw data from the CCD before color interpolation.
image would be 1/3rd the size) and each primary must be 12 bits.
If the RGB pixel was 12 bits total, that would leave only 4 bits
per primary which would yield a working color palette of only 512
colors (16 luminance values per primary) which would yield severe
banding in gradients and shadow areas. Early digital cameras
sampled only 8 bits per primary, 3 primarys per pixel - yielding
true 24 bit color fidelity or 16.6 million colors. DVD's use 10
bits per primary (30 bits per pixel) and the latest incarnation of
scanners and digital cameras is utilizing 12-bits per primary
(36-bits per pixel). If there were only 12 bits per full color
pixel the colorful 24-bit JPGs and TIFFs that come from the camera
would be impossible. So I have to believe that the RAW image
contains 3 seperate 12-bit values for each full color pixel, or
36-bits per colored pixel. Multiply this by 4,915,200 (because
that's how many full color pixels the camera yields) and you get
176,947,200 bits...divide that by 8 bits per byte = 22,118,400
bytes or 21.6 megabytes (divide by 1024 bytes per megabyte).

Where do you get that each RAW pixel is only 12 bits total? Are
you assuming that there are 5 million 12-bit pixels, or are you
considering that there are 5 million 12-bit pixels times 3?

Shane
--

Yes, only 5 million 12 bit pixels on the CCD! Shocking, eh? All the 24 bit RGB values are interploated from this data.

Bryan
 
Your joking right? The test pattern is showing you how fine a detail the camera can resolve. In this case the F707 can resolve finer detail. For objects that are not finely detailed there won't be as much difference as you have noted by looking at the numbers. If you are shooting landscapes and interested in fine detail resolution then this will be an important consideration. If your photos are of scenes with limited fine detail, then you won't notice any difference.

It is important not to delude oneself but to accurately gauge the strenghts and weaknesses of any camera. In this case your assertion that the resolution between the D7i and the F707 are the same and that Phil is misleading us is completely false. You should reexamine the test results with less bias. I think you will come to a different conclusion if you do.

--
Shay

My Sony F707 Gallery: http://www.shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp
 
Here is a brief thought.

Resolution charts were originally used to measure lenses on film cameras. One of the important things when using such a chart with a film camera is to be sure that the scale of the image is large enough that film grain does not affect your result. Sometimes special fine grain film was used.

With digital cameras, the use of the resolution chart has a problem. Here is why. As the detail size approaches the CCD element size, you can get moiré pattern or "aliasing". This can result in unwanted patterns on fine details like fabrics in the real world. To combat this, most cameras today use an anti-aliasing filter. This blurs the image slightly at high frequencies to reduce aliasing. Now, here is the weird part. If you don't use a filter, or use one that has a higher frequency cut off, the camera will show aliasing on repeated fine super high contrast detail (like the chart), but will resolve better detail on "real world" shots. This was proven with Kodak cameras that had user removable anti-aliasing filters.

What does that mean? It means that a camera with higher real world resolution might start to show aliasing on the resolution chart (like the Minolta does), before a camera with a lower cut off frequency, but that camera would show better detail on real world subjects. It seems counter intuitive, but "too much" resolution can actually hurt you on the chart if you cut the anti-alias cut off frequency too close to try to squeeze some extra resolution out of real world situations.

That is why resolution charts don't mean much for digital cameras except in the gross sense; you can't tell aliasing due to higher resolving power from real lack of resolution. Try telling that to 99% of the people who look at the charts on review sites though...

Bryan
 
Shane said:

"When you play with levels in a 24 bit image you are effectively reducing the bit depth of the image data (dynamic range)."

I think a 24 bit picture can have as much dynamic range as a high bit depth picture...say 36 bits(black to white)...just the numbers of levels of each color is less.

I think. :-)

Anybody know for sure?
 
I think that people are looking too hard to rationalize their purchase on this forum. Just admit that the D7i has faults that fall short of other cameras in certain areas, just like the 707 falls short on things like lens distortion, saturation, wide angle lens, lack of zoom ring, and compact flash/microdrive support. : ) It's good to talk about faults on this kind of forum though. It helps buyers decide what features vs faults they can live with. I know some will not accept the Sony because of the saturation problems. And that's fine. Some people think that there is less dynamic range in D7i shots. That's fine too.

B A H
Here is a brief thought.

Resolution charts were originally used to measure lenses on film
cameras. One of the important things when using such a chart with a
film camera is to be sure that the scale of the image is large
enough that film grain does not affect your result. Sometimes
special fine grain film was used.

With digital cameras, the use of the resolution chart has a
problem. Here is why. As the detail size approaches the CCD element
size, you can get moiré pattern or "aliasing". This can result in
unwanted patterns on fine details like fabrics in the real world.
To combat this, most cameras today use an anti-aliasing filter.
This blurs the image slightly at high frequencies to reduce
aliasing. Now, here is the weird part. If you don't use a filter,
or use one that has a higher frequency cut off, the camera will
show aliasing on repeated fine super high contrast detail (like the
chart), but will resolve better detail on "real world" shots. This
was proven with Kodak cameras that had user removable anti-aliasing
filters.

What does that mean? It means that a camera with higher real world
resolution might start to show aliasing on the resolution chart
(like the Minolta does), before a camera with a lower cut off
frequency, but that camera would show better detail on real world
subjects. It seems counter intuitive, but "too much" resolution can
actually hurt you on the chart if you cut the anti-alias cut off
frequency too close to try to squeeze some extra resolution out of
real world situations.

That is why resolution charts don't mean much for digital cameras
except in the gross sense; you can't tell aliasing due to higher
resolving power from real lack of resolution. Try telling that to
99% of the people who look at the charts on review sites though...

Bryan
--
http://www.pbase.com/gdguide
http://adigitaldreamer.com
 
Sounds about right to me pjsocal, dinamic range depends on the sensore ability to pick up contrasts.

cheers
Shane said:
"When you play with levels in a 24 bit image you are effectively
reducing the bit depth of the image data (dynamic range)."

I think a 24 bit picture can have as much dynamic range as a high
bit depth picture...say 36 bits(black to white)...just the numbers
of levels of each color is less.

I think. :-)

Anybody know for sure?
--
Peter Marina
 
This test actually doesn't show how fine a detail the camera can resolve. If it did, again, the numbers and dashes next to the pattern would be sharper (more resolute) in the Sony image. They are not. It is easy to see that the Minolta and Sony images are identical, if not the (inolta is a tad sharper) n the numbers. What you are seeing in the line pattern is moire that happens when alternating patterns are repeated, such as the fins on an air conditioning grille. In such case, with high contrast alternating lines, the sony's interpolation algorithm will give the appearance of higher resolution, but in real world situations the cameras will resolve identical amounts of detail (and sharpness aside from internal sharpening algorithms). Compare the shot of the ferris wheel car in the samples gallery between the 707 and the 7i. The images have about the same amount of detail, the sony isn't even a smidgen sharper. This is my point. In a resolution test such as the one Phil used, the Sony APPEARS to resolve more detail - in real world situations (in other words, anything except high contrast alternating patterns) you will see that both cameras yield images of equivalent sharpness.
Your joking right? The test pattern is showing you how fine a
detail the camera can resolve. In this case the F707 can resolve
finer detail. For objects that are not finely detailed there won't
be as much difference as you have noted by looking at the numbers.
If you are shooting landscapes and interested in fine detail
resolution then this will be an important consideration. If your
photos are of scenes with limited fine detail, then you won't
notice any difference.

It is important not to delude oneself but to accurately gauge the
strenghts and weaknesses of any camera. In this case your
assertion that the resolution between the D7i and the F707 are the
same and that Phil is misleading us is completely false. You
should reexamine the test results with less bias. I think you will
come to a different conclusion if you do.

--
Shay

My Sony F707 Gallery: http://www.shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp
 
I wish I could agree, but unfortunatley I don't. The ferris wheel shot is not a good example of fine detail, but since that is the one you brought up, here is a blink test of the two photos, aligned as closely as I could get them. Expand the image, the label of what camera goes to what image is in the lower right hand corner:



You will notice the F707 is clearly sharper in the little bit of fine detail this shot shows. I would love to see a better comparison however. Two shots of the same scene with truely fine details in it. I am sure that the F707 would come out on top, just as the resolution chart photo Phil made clearly shows.

(Image processing: I cropped and then flipped the D7i image horizontally to match the F707's orientation. Saved as a gif with 32 colors, diffusion dithering)
--
Shay

My Sony F707 Gallery: http://www.shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp
 
Actually, I would like to see the same res chart shots with the
Sony sharpening set to a level where it does not produce halos
around the numbers on the chart. This is the usable level of detail
the camera produces. The S800 will print those halos, just like
you see on screen, making that crop already processed too
heavily for my printer. BB has the 9000 now, and I think he
will confirm that the printer will print just exactly what you feed
it. What good is an image that can't be printed?
cheers
Shane said:
"When you play with levels in a 24 bit image you are effectively
reducing the bit depth of the image data (dynamic range)."

I think a 24 bit picture can have as much dynamic range as a high
bit depth picture...say 36 bits(black to white)...just the numbers
of levels of each color is less.

I think. :-)

Anybody know for sure?
--
Peter Marina
 
Why does Phil shot this resolution comparison photos in JPEG's?

JPEG implementations are very different... for instance, Photoshop produces both smaller and better quality JPEGs than ACDSee given the same quality percentage.
 
Shay

Interesting comparison. Sadly I don't think it is fully fair because they are two different cars under different lighting conditions.

I would however trust the test pattern comparisons. I feel that regardless of whether it looks like less resolution on the 7i because of ccd, or in camera processing, or interference patterns, blah blah blah, at the end of the day, it's what the final image looks like, not why. What would worry me is the converging lines is a non-real world test and the 707 filtering/adjustment my actually filter real world, random/chaotic detail. If you tweak a software filter to deal with straight lines, what does it do in other situations - probably poorer. Maybe Minolta chose to take the middle of the road........... I dunno

I'm plenty happy with my 7i and willing to accept it's shortcomings, of which it must have at least one somewhere.
I wish I could agree, but unfortunatley I don't. The ferris wheel
shot is not a good example of fine detail, but since that is the
one you brought up, here is a blink test of the two photos, aligned
as closely as I could get them. Expand the image, the label of
what camera goes to what image is in the lower right hand corner:



You will notice the F707 is clearly sharper in the little bit of
fine detail this shot shows. I would love to see a better
comparison however. Two shots of the same scene with truely fine
details in it. I am sure that the F707 would come out on top, just
as the resolution chart photo Phil made clearly shows.

(Image processing: I cropped and then flipped the D7i image
horizontally to match the F707's orientation. Saved as a gif with
32 colors, diffusion dithering)
--
Shay

My Sony F707 Gallery: http://www.shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp
 

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