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Preliminary LX3 review with images...

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Andario,

I've had problems with image theft in the past (and given that some of these will be published) - I'm not going to risk posting full sized images. But there are some 100% crops lower down here.

On the sky, yes, there's noise because it's a) blue channel b) pushed, but it was also raining quite heavily.


Andario said:
Ming,

I certainly appreciate both your time and your desire to help us out
with this review. What I cannot understand is your "I won't be
posting any full size images" bit: if the whole point of the review
is helping us out to determine the quality of camera, what´s the
point in giving us such small pics?? I see some pretty rough noise on
the sky, for example, but since the resolution you gave is barely
half my monitor's resolution, I simply cannot evaluate how bad is it.

If you want show your photographic skills, you can create as many
posts as you wish for that purpose, but if you´re genuinely trying to
help (I don´t doubt that) we would be doing FAR better with any other
bigger picture that you consider pertinent.

I hope you understand. Thank you.
--
Click to expand...
--
photohorologer MING at http://www.mingthein.com and http://www.flickr.com/mingthein
 
Isabel Cutler said:
I was excited about it because of that f/2 lens...now I'm even more
excited because I see what it can produce.
Thanks for sharing your experiences.
Looking forward to more of your images with it.
Isabel
--
'Twelve significant photographs in any one year is a significant
crop' Ansel Adams
http://www.pbase.com/isabel95
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Digipets/ (not only for pet
photography!)
Click to expand...
--
photohorologer MING at http://www.mingthein.com and http://www.flickr.com/mingthein
 
BrianK said:
These images look quite nice.

In reference to the comments about posting full-size images, it might
be nice to see a few of the daylight shots to evaluate the sharpness
of the images, especially in the corners. There have been some other
posts about lack of sharpness across the entire image (on the left
side), and maybe some of the images you have taken would help us
evaluate the validity of those claims.

Thanks again!

Brian

--
'It's better than movies, it's better than tele, it's fantastic.'

Spig, from Shooting the Past.
Click to expand...
--
photohorologer MING at http://www.mingthein.com and http://www.flickr.com/mingthein
 
...not had a chance to test the 1cm macro for anything other than mucking about, but here are some relatively close-up shots. The lens performs just as well here as at tele, impressively.







Cheers
Ming
myssvictoria said:
Ming, thank you for posting your review on this forum. Lovely photos
here and on your site. I hope to see more, perhaps some closer shots?
Sorry to add yet another request, but you seem to have a good copy
and great skill.
--
Vickie
Click to expand...
--
photohorologer MING at http://www.mingthein.com and http://www.flickr.com/mingthein
 
1. It's faster.
2. Buffered raw.
3. AF tracking.
4. TTL hotshoe.
5. Argueably less noise.

6. variable aspect ratios; 16:9 24mm diagonal FOV is wider horizontally than 4:3 24mm diagonal FOV.

However, the GX100 is somewhat easier to use thanks to the double dials, and more configurable. YMMV...
Leon Schiffman said:
Ming Thein--

I currently have a Ricoh GX-100. How would I benefit from Panasonic
LX3?

Thank you

L Schiffman
Click to expand...
--
photohorologer MING at http://www.mingthein.com and http://www.flickr.com/mingthein
 
I have to agree with you on the LX2. I was looking for a compact about a year ago to supplement my DSLRs, but landed up with the TZ3 instead as the LX2 was not just too noisy, but too darn slow also. RAW simply wasn't an option without a buffer or compression.

I don't think the LX3 deserves its bad rep - all products have QC issues - and yes, the Sigma has better IQ, but it's three times the price (at least in this part of the world) and slow as molasses.

Ming
Dave Mathias said:
Thanks for taking the time to put this review together. The LX3 has
had quite a bashing on thiese forums, which might put some people
off. The low res flickr compressed samples can't hide the fact that
the LX3 can take some gorgeous photographs. I would say that though
as I bought one last week!!
I wanted a camera that I could have fun with using a lot of manual
functions but could also give to my wife and say "there you go stick
it on auto and fire away". I almost bought an LX2 when they first
came out but the noise issue was, well a bit of an issue :-) So I was
quite intrigued when the LX3 was announced and started looking at the
competition.

I looked at the Canon G9 but it is just toooo ugly. I know it is a
very good camera as I spent about an hour and a half in my local
dealer hassling the poor salesman but it reminds me of some sort of
bad camera from the 80's.(That is only my opinion and I'm sure lots
of people like the ugly duckling on an asthetical level)

That left me looking at the wonderful Ricoh cameras I had alook at
the GX100 and one of the Caplio's I can't remember which one and they
were really nice to use, but when I tried the video function it was
lower quality than my mobile phone, jumpy pixelated and really wierd
colours, haveing two small children means having a semi decent video
option on your camera is a must.

The DP1 looked like a good idea but i wasn't sure whether a compact
body was big enough to be able to run all the proccessing power that
a "proper" size sensor would need, it was out of my justifyable price
range anyway.

So I bought the LX3 with the lovely bright lens and better
sensor/image engine and HD video and I LOVE IT!!! Other cameras that
I tried do some things better but the LX3 as an overall package in my
opinion is one of the best around.
If you buy one I hope you have as much enjoyment as I've had in the
past week discovering how much it can do.

Dave



--
Click to expand...
--
photohorologer MING at http://www.mingthein.com and http://www.flickr.com/mingthein
 
...not sure exactly what the ultimate DR of the LX3 is. I'm not familiar enough with Silkypix to be able to push it to the limit - we'll have to wait for ACR to support it - and I'll get back to you guys then. Also bear in mind that I've been shooting under lousy light conditions and relatively elevated ISOs - not the best for testing DR. It ain't no D3 for sure (that thing can give 13+ stops if carefully exposed and processed) but I'd say it isn't any worse than the D2H I was using in 2004-5.

One HUGE problem with the DP1 was color balancing. It was simply impossible to get the colors right without shooting in raw and doing huge amounts of tweaking to the individual channels afterwards - not very convenient at all.

For serious landscape work, you'd be better off taking a bunch of shots with the LX3 in raw and different exposures, then merging and HDR'ing. That is if you're not really serious and already have a DSLR.

Ming
Barry Fitzgerald said:
The Sigma DP-1 is a flawed camera, but has pretty good DR.

I would be amazed if the LX-3 could get near that.

Also, whilst I wont be getting the sigma, have to say. That for
certain types of shooting, its clearly not intended (low light,
street stuff etc), but for serious landscape work, slow lens and all
(this wont matter to shooters who dont do low light, or tripod the
camera), the IQ is really rather excellent, tones and colours on the
foveon are very good indeed.

Both are very different cameras, but its possibly unwise to compare
them in the IQ dept. Foveon is weak for high ISO, but low ISO..its in
a different league to the panansonic.

From looking at the images so far, nothing suggests anything special
DR wise from the lx-3. Not to say its not a good camera, and worthy
of consideration.
--



I am not the 'Ghost Hunter', nor am I the Irish actor in the 'Quiet
Man' ;-)
Click to expand...
--
photohorologer MING at http://www.mingthein.com and http://www.flickr.com/mingthein
 
I too was thinking about it and came to the conclusion:

1. micro 4/3 isn't going to be that micro, or pocketable. Scratch that, I need a pocket camera - if I'm going to sling something around my neck, I've got the D3 for that. Or a D40 if I want to go light.

2. Even if there is a DP2 or another DX-sensor compact, I don't think we're going to get a 24-60/2.0-2.8 on the front of it. It'll be fixed 2.8 at best, or a f4 or worse zoom at worst. Yes, we get 1-2 more useable stops, but we also have IS on the LX3.

3. I like to have the equipment now to make pictures now. There'll always be something bigger and greater coming along :)

4. D700 is pretty darn impressive. For all intents and purposes, it's a D3 (unless you need the extra 5% all round the D3 gives, in which case you'll know who you are and already have a D3). By the way, be careful of the metering on the D700. I don't know if it was just my sample, but it was somewhat erratic compared to the infallible D3.

Cheers
Ming
TEBnewyork said:
Thanks Ming great write -up. I'm hanging out waiting to see the full
set of releases for photokina and digesting my D300 to D700 upgrade
but I always like reading about compact cameras.
--
terry
http://tbanet.zenfolio.com/
Click to expand...
--
photohorologer MING at http://www.mingthein.com and http://www.flickr.com/mingthein
 
Thanks for the compliments. Here goes:

1. Pattern noise - at higher ISOs, it's still there. At base ISO, if you limit your pushing to 2 stops, it's acceptable. I did say good DR, but I should have clarified that to say good DR for a compact - to my mind, good DR is still the D3...the only thing that comes close is the S5Pro.

2. I didn't notice the OIS being any less efficient, but certainly seemed as good as anything else panasonic has produced so far - and IMO, they do some of the best OIS in the business. 1/4s at 24 is certainly very possible.

3. Yes, I knew you were going to ask about HFOV :) In 16:9, the 24mm HFOV is quite a bit wider than the D3 at 24mm - I think closer to 21 or 22mm (tested using the new 14-24/2.8). However, I caveat all of the previous by saying that it depends on where you place the cameras - at the same focal plane, or at the front element of the lens? I have absolutely no idea where the optical center on either lens is, so it's hard to say. If you do D3/14-24 at the front element at 24 vs the LX3 at focal plane, the D3 combo is a hair wider. If you put them both at focal plane, the LX3 is noticeably wider. As for 3:2 mode: looks the same to me, given the previous caveat.

Hope this helps!

Ming
Ehrik said:
Thanks for posting your opinion which is always highly regarded. I
can only agree with Terry in what she wrote.

Very nice set of images, despite the rain.

Two questions:

The LX2 had a problem with pattern noise in the deep shadows, which
made it hard to push them. Is the LX3 free from this problem? I
suppose so since you mention the good DR.

Have you tested the OIS? I have the impression that it has been less
efficient on the wide angle designs than on the superzooms. f/2 might
also make it a harder problem for the engineers.

Edit:
Oh, one more. :-) Have you tested if the 24mm in 3:2 mode is as wide as
a 24mm lens on your D3?

Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden
Click to expand...
--
photohorologer MING at http://www.mingthein.com and http://www.flickr.com/mingthein
 
Ming Thein said:
Subjectively though, I don't see that much difference in JPEG vs RAW
  • much as others like Lawrence Ripsher have found - but this could be
because I'm not very experienced with Silkypix (far too confusing and
limited compared to ACR.). However, the main thing I do notice is an
improvement in DR - by perhaps a stop or so in the highlights, and of
course more flexible NR options - but I don't think you're going to
get that much extra detail. I too was surprised by this result.

However, the unsharpened LX3 RAW files converted to TIFF straight out
of silkypix with no additional sharpening take heavy smart sharpen
USM in photoshop very well.

As for the quality of the jpegs themselves - no complaints here - and
tellingly, I don't see the usual red-bleeding associated with Venus
II and III.

Ming
Rossuziers said:
while your, much appreciated, efforts are a real boon to the
proponents of RAW, which basically removes VenusIV from most of the
equation...
What about a similar review in JPG for the less RAW inclined?
Is there any hope this cam can not be a total waste for the JPG
crowd?? Can VenusIV in concert with such a fast, sharp lens & more
than reliable OIS deliver the goods within an acceptable result even
if it may not be as excellent as your work-flow results, which for
the most part, is quite a bit more extensive than most???
Regardless, thanks... I enjoy reading & seeing your informal reviews
of cams I'm interested in, even though our work-flows are about as
dissimilar as can be....
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Thanks for clearing that up for me Ming...

It's nice to know what I'll be missing....

I'm completely adverse to DSLRs & still think an advanced prosumer P&S of any kind regardless if FZ30/50 or FX or LX, priced @ $500 w/accessories @ half or more like the newest LX is not going to sell to everyone like a P&S should... I paid intro top-dollar ($650) for the FZ30 because Pany nailed pretty much everything I wanted in it... I assure you that'll never happen again... Then got the 50 for almost $250 less a couple years after the 30... Only because I doubt Pany will be continuing the FZ30/50 form-factor & I plan to be content using the 50 till it dies, then reverting back to the 30 with no qualms about it, for years to come.. The only other alternative, the s100fs, carries too many trade-offs & is even more pricey, so isn't an option for me...

It sure would've been nice to have the LX3 to replace my Wcons on the 30/50 & for a good pocket-shooter but it'll have to drop to $400 or preferably less for that to happen... I'll probably settle for the TZ5 instead...

No doubt Pany is quite comfortable in spite of that & are prepared to take whatever they get, following their current philosophy... I think they're hoping there are enough Pros, semi-pros & financially fluid enough Pro wanna-be's out here who'll pony up to the bar & choose the LX3 over the Ricohs & DP1s... I hope Pany is wrong & it doesn't sell... Then maybe the price will drop significantly enough but that never really happened with the previous LX models neither....

Ok, sorry for the ramble... I know nobody really cares where I'm coming from but I like typing it out anyway, just in case Panasonic Bob is still out there monitoring this forum... I personally believe his monitoring this forum back in the early FZ days was instrumental in the eventual appearance of the FZ30 & 50, not to mention Panasonics decided swing towards more WA after that.... Not that this forum was/is the only reason things have gone the way they have....

--
Ming Thein said:
Ming Thein said:
The Amateur Formerly Known as 'UZ'pShoot'ERS' 'Happy Shootin' Comments, Critique, Ridicule, Limericks, Jokes, Hi-jackings, EnthUZIastically, Encouraged... I Insist!



* [email protected] * http://www.pbase.com/rrawzz *
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
I know where you're coming from. Although I am a pro, and have a huge and heavy DSLR kit for when I need the kitchen sink (think D3 and f2.8 lenses), there are times when you just don't want to haul all of that around - but still not compromise your photography.

Kudos to Panasonic for making an effort and trying to put something together that we serious photographers can appreciate. I was a huge fan of the fuji F-cameras due to their speedy performance and image quality; reluctantly switched to Panasonic due to the lenses, lamenting image quality; though now I wouldn't have any other compact than the LX3.

Yes, it is expensive, but not more so than the Ricoh GRs or GXs; argueably those are actually LESS flexible due to lens constraints, and certainly don't focus or shoot as fast as the LX3. The Canon G9 is just too big, and the lens lets it down. Sigma DP1 is too slow, though image quality is unquestionably the best.

The thing is, I don't feel like I'm compromising much in terms of control and flexibility when I switch from say my D40 to the LX3 - and that's saying a LOT. (Image quality is another matter, of course). This is the first compact I've felt that way about - and I've owned/ tested far too many of them to count (FZ18, TZ3, TZ5, FX100, FX36, F10/11/30/31, GRDI/II, GX100/200 - even back to the Sony V3).

But do bear in mind we're talking the last 5% for RAW v JPEG - so don't miss out on a great camera just because of that.

Cheers
Ming
Rossuziers said:
I'm completely adverse to DSLRs & still think an advanced prosumer
P&S of any kind regardless if FZ30/50 or FX or LX, priced @ $500
w/accessories @ half or more like the newest LX is not going to sell
to everyone like a P&S should... I paid intro top-dollar ($650) for
the FZ30 because Pany nailed pretty much everything I wanted in it...
I assure you that'll never happen again... Then got the 50 for almost
$250 less a couple years after the 30... Only because I doubt Pany
will be continuing the FZ30/50 form-factor & I plan to be content
using the 50 till it dies, then reverting back to the 30 with no
qualms about it, for years to come.. The only other alternative, the
s100fs, carries too many trade-offs & is even more pricey, so isn't
an option for me...
It sure would've been nice to have the LX3 to replace my Wcons on the
30/50 & for a good pocket-shooter but it'll have to drop to $400 or
preferably less for that to happen... I'll probably settle for the
TZ5 instead...
No doubt Pany is quite comfortable in spite of that & are prepared to
take whatever they get, following their current philosophy... I think
they're hoping there are enough Pros, semi-pros & financially fluid
enough Pro wanna-be's out here who'll pony up to the bar & choose the
LX3 over the Ricohs & DP1s... I hope Pany is wrong & it doesn't
sell... Then maybe the price will drop significantly enough but that
never really happened with the previous LX models neither....
Ok, sorry for the ramble... I know nobody really cares where I'm
coming from but I like typing it out anyway, just in case Panasonic
Bob is still out there monitoring this forum... I personally believe
his monitoring this forum back in the early FZ days was instrumental
in the eventual appearance of the FZ30 & 50, not to mention
Panasonics decided swing towards more WA after that.... Not that
this forum was/is the only reason things have gone the way they
have....

--
Rossuziers said:
Rossuziers said:
The Amateur Formerly Known as 'UZ'pShoot'ERS' 'Happy Shootin' Comments, Critique, Ridicule, Limericks, Jokes, Hi-jackings, EnthUZIastically, Encouraged... I Insist!



* [email protected] * http://www.pbase.com/rrawzz *
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
photohorologer MING at http://www.mingthein.com and http://www.flickr.com/mingthein
 
Ming Thein said:
I too was thinking about it and came to the conclusion:

1. micro 4/3 isn't going to be that micro, or pocketable. Scratch
that, I need a pocket camera - if I'm going to sling something around
my neck, I've got the D3 for that. Or a D40 if I want to go light.
Click to expand...
Actually, I'm waiting to see what Leica does. Rumor is a smaller less expensive M and I also shoot the M8 so that is really what I'm most waiting to see.
Ming Thein said:
2. Even if there is a DP2 or another DX-sensor compact, I don't think
we're going to get a 24-60/2.0-2.8 on the front of it. It'll be fixed
2.8 at best, or a f4 or worse zoom at worst. Yes, we get 1-2 more
useable stops, but we also have IS on the LX3.
Click to expand...
Agree
Ming Thein said:
3. I like to have the equipment now to make pictures now. There'll
always be something bigger and greater coming along :)
Click to expand...
Oh, LOL equipment is the one thing I'm not lacking in!
Ming Thein said:
4. D700 is pretty darn impressive. For all intents and purposes, it's
a D3 (unless you need the extra 5% all round the D3 gives, in which
case you'll know who you are and already have a D3). By the way, be
careful of the metering on the D700. I don't know if it was just my
sample, but it was somewhat erratic compared to the infallible D3.
Click to expand...
I haven't had any exposure problems yet. In keeping things small, I bought the 40 and 58mm Voigtlander lenses and really like them. Worth giving a try if you have access to them. When I bought the D300 and twice after that I looked at the D3 and it is just too big for me to handle. The other night I was shooting the D700 + 24-70 and M8 + 28 cron side by side. The M8 is essentially a compact after carrying around the Nikon combo.

--
terry
http://tbanet.zenfolio.com/
 
Thank you for your precise review. Could you please comment the advantages of LX3 over GX200 besides one stop less noise at higher iso.

Thanks,
Teera
 
If that were a price from any other source, outside of N.Y.S... My bluff would be called but I refuse to pay tax, living in the most taxed state in the country (or at leat the top 2 or 3).... From JR, B&H, Dbuys & others, any such deal would cost me round-about $430, even with free delivery... BuyDig, Vanns, Maybe even Amazon, etc. that don't charge tax & shipping, I'd probably bite @ $399.... Plus it's the silver, which didn't bother me in my FZ30 but superficially as it is, it bothers me in the TZ, LZ, FX & LX... I checked & the black isn't getting the same instant rebate ;-{

But I do have till 09/06/08 too... Hell! I might sign up anyway & cancel if parting with that extra $30 proves too painful @ the time of reckoning.... ;-}

Thanks Kir! By all means, don't ever hesitate to call my bluff, even if it does steer me clear of the TZ5A.... That can be had for just under $280 TMD from both Abes or Vanns, unless you know of a better non-N.Y.S. reputable deal?
Kirwin said:
Rossuziers said:
It sure would've been nice to have the LX3 to replace my Wcons on the
30/50 & for a good pocket-shooter but it'll have to drop to $400 or
preferably less for that to happen...
Click to expand...
It's already under $400!

http://www.jr.com/panasonic/pe/PAN_DMCLX3S/
Click to expand...
--
Kirwin said:
Kirwin said:
The Amateur Formerly Known as 'UZ'pShoot'ERS' 'Happy Shootin' Comments, Critique, Ridicule, Limericks, Jokes, Hi-jackings, EnthUZIastically, Encouraged... I Insist!



* [email protected] * http://www.pbase.com/rrawzz *
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Ming Thein said:
I've owned/ tested far too many of them to count (FZ18, TZ3, TZ5,
FX100, FX36, F10/11/30/31, GRDI/II, GX100/200 - even back to the Sony
V3).
Click to expand...
Hello Ming,

Thanks for your input here. I value it greatly because you are one of the few who has had a lot of experience with a lot of cameras... which makes me give a lot of weight to whatever you opine.

I'd like your opinions about how your LX3 feels versus the F31fd you have used earlier. I ask this because I currently use the F31fd heavily and have been a happy user, but its limitations have frustrated me more often than not.

F31fd - What frustrates me is the lack of IS, lack of wide angle, lack of flash hot-shoe, slow at the tele end, focus problems at the tele end, no histogram, etc.

F31fd - What I admire is great images upto ISO 400, useable ISO 800 and 1600 (the latter only when no other choice), great Portrait Mode with Face Detection active (I don't hear a lot of positive feedback on this very nicely optimized mode, but I am very impressed), great battery life and lastly, great video/audio at 640x480 (even though there is no optical zoom during video).

I do a lot of low light shooting with my F31fd indoors at friend's homes, my home (family archive building) and at other low light establishments such as restaurants, malls, etc. And I am interested in getting great color and sharpness in jpeg format straight out of the camera. I'm not too keen playing with DR/HDR in RAW because I am ignorant about such things.

I also often do short video movies (5 minutes average length) with my F31fd and put them up on the Internet using a .flv conversion software.

So, in your personal opinion, do you think the LX3 will at least match the F31fd, if not improve upon it? How good is the in-camera flash on the LX3. On the F31fd at ISO 400/800 the flash is quite capable, but not at low ISOs for dim indoor shots. The backgrounds often comes out underexposed indoors in dimly lit regular sized apartments.

--
Click

 
Rossuziers said:
If that were a price from any other source, outside of N.Y.S... My
bluff would be called but I refuse to pay tax, living in the most
taxed state in the country (or at leat the top 2 or 3).... From JR,
B&H, Dbuys & others, any such deal would cost me round-about $430,
even with free delivery... BuyDig, Vanns, Maybe even Amazon, etc.
that don't charge tax & shipping, I'd probably bite @ $399.... Plus
it's the silver, which didn't bother me in my FZ30 but superficially
as it is, it bothers me in the TZ, LZ, FX & LX... I checked & the
black isn't getting the same instant rebate ;-{
But I do have till 09/06/08 too... Hell! I might sign up anyway &
cancel if parting with that extra $30 proves too painful @ the time
of reckoning.... ;-}
Click to expand...
Don't be shy about asking those other online retailers to match J&R's price. Hell you might even try talking them into the black model for that same price. You might be pleasantly surprised. Don't forget to pricematch with OneCall also.
Rossuziers said:
Thanks Kir! By all means, don't ever hesitate to call my bluff, even
if it does steer me clear of the TZ5A.... That can be had for just
under $280 TMD from both Abes or Vanns, unless you know of a better
non-N.Y.S. reputable deal?
Click to expand...
Again at J&R for $259 for the TZ5A. I know it's NYS... but again this can be price matched if the urge is strong for this blue gem... ha!!! Take care!

http://www.jr.com/panasonic/pe/PAN_DMCTZ5A/

--



Regards,
Kirwin
http://timebandit.smugmug.com
 
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