Paradigm shift need in Photography

Lot of hot air... all I already know...MY point once again is that more than ever there is a newbie in a garage or outhouse to such a degree that the average middle income photog is seeing sales declines...stop stating that all this is nothing new and think out of the camera... BTW,,, i hate those how copy someones every statement in red and then give old hat outdated verbage of thier opinions. I never do this...think independently and your thoughts will improve !
 
I have few proglems makeing $ in photography...can't you get outside
of yourself and view the world. In a narcissistic, self-centered
culture, probably not.
Ahhh...but if your not narcissistc or self-centered...usually you can sift through the bulls#it. Its pretty easy.
BTW, please stop giving away your work as
that is a time tested ploy of newbies that does not help the
established profession of photography and one of the major complaints
over the years of many photogs !
I am not giving it away because I am a newbie.....I usually give to things like charitable events to raise money and be a productive member of my community. I usually dont "give" my work to anybody except that.

I value my work......and I put a pretty high price on my prints....higher than the local competition yet I still get my sales.

Actually considering raising my prices.....: )

Roman

--

'Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who are we to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous.

Actually, who are we not to be?'

--Marianne Williamson

http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
 
...I left all my professional organizations because they weren't
helping the pros, mostly the wannabes. There is nothing wrong with
training them to be successful, but that took a backseat to not
wanting to hurt their feelings. I saw the problems-offered to set up
classes and teach them for free the right way to run a business and
ethics for no charge. I felt it would be a requirement to stay in the
professional organization.
I'm glad my local guild isn't quite like this. Yes, they encourage the newbies - you have to have new blood to grow. But we're also starting to have mandatory prerequisite classes, such as the one you wanted to teach, in order to take the advanced classes.

While "anyone" can join the PPA, you do have to agree to their code of ethics as part of the application process. A copy of their ethics rules are here:

https://www.ppawebapps.com/updtapp/ethics.htm
I was voted down thus it became a camera club.
My local guild is far from a camera club, but I think it can be difficult to find someone who's willing to give an honest evaluation of your work outside of a print competition. Aside from forums like this one :-), I think there's an overall fear of doing or saying anything that might offend someone. I think it's more a symptom of our overly Politically Correct society, than any other agenda of your guild's leadership.
In a society were everything gets dumbed down, peoples
perception of good photowork gets lower and lower all the time.
Agreed. Take a good look at that McDonald's hamburger you buy next time. How on earth did we allow such cuisine to thrive and flourish. And go back in time, before McDonald's had it's Big Mac. They had a Hamburger, a cheeseburger, and the double cheese burger. That was it. Only one size fry - what's now the small size. Those were actually "loss leaders." They made their money selling the soda pop you bought with those. They built an empire on food they basically had to give away (sell at a loss, so you'd buy the soda they'd make it up on). That's the restaurant that put all those car-hops and the great burgers they brought to you out of business (Sonic tries to bring that back, but a Sonic burger doesn't hold a candle to what I remember from Mel's Drive Ins in the San Francisco Bay Area when I was growing up in the '60s).

If your interest is piqued:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel 's_Drive-In

There was one in Downtown Berkeley, on Shattuck Ave., next to a high end Hi-Fi shop called "The Sounding Board" that my father frequented. He was an audiophile before the term audiophile was born. We'd go to the stereo store to see what was new on a Saturday morning, then stop next door at Mel's for a REAL cheeseburger. Hmmm. "In and Out Burger" comes closest to what I remembered. Maybe time has dulled my memory.

But I digress...

Oh, then we'd head over to Palmer's Pharmacy (corner of Shattuck and University) for a chat with Charlie behind the camera counter. Charlie must have been a good salesman. Palmer's Pharmacy dropped out of the pharmacy business, and became Palmer's Camera.

Camera stores like that suffered a paradigm shift, too, that resulted in most going out of business. Many that survived the onslaught of Mail Order companies advertising in the back of photography magazine, got a one-two punch from the Internet. It seems like the only camera stores around now are the camera pimps in the malls - Wolf and Ritz (oops, same company!).
That said there are a lot of seminars out there. Many are overpriced,
but some are good. I know Fuzzy and he's pretty honest, sincere, and
a good shooter. His materials are pretty cheap and have good content
last I saw.
So how's the Fuzzyflector hinged? I've been trying to figure it out, but I'm not willing to pay $125 for his plans and a couple bits of PVC to learn how to build one. I posted a question on this in the Lighting Techniques forum, and there were a more than a few people who got sticker shock at his prices. Maybe the prices have gone up substantially since you last saw?

http://www.duenkel.com/for_professionals.html
So I was dissapointed to find that you and I believed a
lot of the same things, but that you would attack Fuzzy without
firsthand knowlege of him. If you had taken classes from him than an
honest opinion would have been fine
I understand from my colleagues that at "Florida School," his class is usually the first to sell out. I agree his work is outstanding, and I've seen enough work from some of his "disciples" to have some respect from the man.

But do tell about how the FuzzyFlector is hinged!

Thanks,

--
  • Arved
'Take only pictures. Leave only footprints.'
 
He did okay. No computer programing accreditation.

Richard Branson started by selling records out of the back of his car. He did okay too. I imagine many record retail stores looked down their noses at him too. Some of them are even out of business now. The digital and computer age of photography has changed the landscape of photography with respect to the learning curve. 100% absolutely true yes. Instant feed back and limitless "film" allows one to learn what different settings do what without having to document with paper and pen what roll was shot where and how. I believe there are 3 progressive levels of photographer. Some move on to the next level, some are content to stay where they are;

The first is humble hobbyist. They purchase a DSLR, and marvel at the technology and freely admit their aspirations lye only in how to improve their nature/landscape/family photos. They like thier occupation and have no interest in photography beyond a hobbyist.

The second is the "wannabe". This person has evolved from the pure hobbyist to the point where they say to themselves "People (friends/family) like the pictures I take, maybe I can make something from this. That would be cool. 'John Doe, Professional Photographer' has a nice ring to it. I wonder if anyone I know is getting married? The guy at the camera store told me about dpreview.com. I'll go on there and ask the pros on their advice for a good wedding lens and flash". As many in this professional forum have expressed their frustration with, they are a "have camera, will shoot for nothing" folk. This group of camera owners look in the mirror and see a ripped body rather than their true flabby selves. This is who we hear from a lot. "How do I; which lens; why am I getting blurry shots with my 18-200?" etc etc.

The third group is the quiet group. They started as hobbyists, progressed to the wannabe with aspirations of doing photography full time. They have an eye, but perhaps didn't always have equipment to bring out their mind's eye true to form. They are self educators who don't have the time or means to learn photography in a formal setting. They are information sponges and get whatever reading material they can get their hands on to learn about photography. They go to dpreview.com among other forums to learn from people who know more than they do. And there are a lot. Read books, forums, shoot, books, forums, shoot. Not only are they listening and learning about technique and lighting, but they listen to the seasoned pros, they know not to charge (nor could they) as much as a veteran, but they also learn why they shouldn't give away their services... for the health of the industry.

It is true that to be hired as a photographer, one does not need a professional designation. Most occupations start this way however.

There were surgeons before medical scools existed, dentists before dental school existed; care givers before 'personal support worker' became a college diploma course; what was a dipoma course for Occupational Therapists 40 years ago is now a Masters program here in Canada. The general contractor business is still alive and well with the likes of Home Depot and all the other DIY home improvement stores out there.

So while I agree in part with the OP comments, you have to take everything with a grain of salt as they say. Most working pros, I would think, don't spend their time on forums. They are out shooting or editing or getting new business. So you can't take what they DON'T say has a degredation in the photographic world. The loudest voices on this forum are the non pros obviously. They are the askers of the seemingly naive business/equipment/technique questions. Only because they want to learn.

The digital age is very new. Everyone is sprinting towards a finish line they can't see. Many, many of them will drop off because they can't keep up. Look at the auto industry in the U.S. "The big 3". 100 hundred years ago there were 50 companies making 'horseless carriages'. Along the way they either died out completely or were bought out.

In the information age, one cannot count out the informally educated photographer. They are smarter and more talented than you think! Thanks for "listening" to my ramble.
  • Mike
p.s. J.K. Rowling does not have a journalism degree nor did she have paying writing gigs before her first Harry Potter book. She's done pretty well for herself, i think. ;-)

--
Ancient Canadian proverb: 'Don't eat yellow snow.'
D300 and the 10-200 f/2 with fisheye switch. ;-)
 
Whoa man, I think we are more on the same side than not so your heated rhetoric should cool down. I made a point that outlines how you, me and others can sit and bi*ch about it but what are you doing about it?

You'd get more here if you'd bit your tongue and maybe see what myself and others are saying. You may then see that we are not on another page from you but maybe at another position on the current page.

By all means use this forum as a place to vent, I have done so at times too... But when you have stopped you need to then sit back and then ask what will you do about it? Enraged venting is not going to stop the ignorant newbie or other low baller from trying to scoupe the bottom feeder client. As such do you really want the bottom feeder client? Do you think BMW or Mercedes is looking for say the person on who may buy entry level brand car?

To make a funny point:

You can go to this doctor, Springfield's most respected. Doctor Hibbert.





Or if you are a cheap person or bottom feeder you can go to this doctor. Dr. Nick





Both doctors look to thrive in a community just as in most any other profession. LOL.

--
visit my photo gallery of images from my 10D

http://phileas.fotopic.net/c258181.html
 
I've seen jewelers who drive BMW's and wear expensive clothes. Tailors are a joke I guess only if you live to buy off the rack and as such would prove you to be a bottom feeder when looking at quality clothing. But look at many high end entrepreneurs and they all likely buy expensive tailor made suits and the tailors probably benefit from such with better incomes. Painters well art painters are often their own worst enemies, like photographers can be. But some are quite well off and respected. House painters though as tradesmen can make a damn good living today.
the last three you mention are a joke...no wonder you think about
photography the way you do !
--
visit my photo gallery of images from my 10D

http://phileas.fotopic.net/c258181.html
 
Do you think your owed a living?

Do you think that your owed customers?

Pick yourself up by your own boot straps.....my friend.

Figure out your market.....

There are PLEANTY who are making a good living DESPITE the influx of newbies with low priced services.....

Guess why......

Because they know that from that perspective....they know how to market themselves properly.

If you have a good product....and the confidence and business plan to succesfully market your good product ...you should have NO problem....ZERO. Dont give me excuses about seminars....or market saturation......you either have a product people want....or you dont.....if you dont....get back on the learning train....learn what you need to be competitive.

So do you think a living is owed to you?....if you do that would be closer to the "liberal" name you call everyone else.

I bet if you spent more time working...and less time bitc#ing in here...you would make more money.

And before you point that liberal finger at me.....remember...im not here complaining about not being able to make a living....I am growing my business nicely thank you. (A rather conservitive approach if you ask me. : )

Roman
--

'Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who are we to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous.

Actually, who are we not to be?'

--Marianne Williamson

http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
 
Tailors are a joke I guess only if you live to buy off the rack and as such would prove you to be a bottom feeder when looking at quality clothing. But look at many high end entrepreneurs and they all likely buy expensive tailor made suits and the tailors probably benefit from such with better incomes.
And there is basically my point. Photographers provide a luxury service. Luxuries, by definition, are not essential.

--
RDKirk
'TANSTAAFL: The only unbreakable rule in photography.'
 
Despite what I say....and my disagreements....

That kind of response still has my respect.

Roman
--

'Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who are we to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous.

Actually, who are we not to be?'

--Marianne Williamson

http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
 
Thats because you are a "rube" newbie and the type all my posts are directed toward... who has no knowledge about the culture, history or business of photography...only a Canon rebel and a mouth !
 
And there is basically my point. Photographers provide a luxury
service. Luxuries, by definition, are not essential.
I think those working with the visual arts may think of photography as a necessity. How will they put their books, magazines, ads, websites, news, etc. together without photography?
--
all the best
saronann
 
Or at least any trade that has to do with the arts. Look at graphic designers. I know several people off hand that have no degree in the field and yet are gainfully employed.

What people don't understand is that you can't fully teach art to someone, you can only teach the technical skills. Creativity, "the eye" and instinct are rarely taught and most people that have these talents had them before any formal training occurred.

This puts the burden of judgment on the person buying the art. If they like what they see from a photographer, then they will buy it. This goes for people that paint, sculpt, design websites, draw...the list goes on.

35mm did the same thing for photography when it finally took off with popularity. All of a sudden there was a format that the masses could get their hands on and fully take advantage of, and better yet, they could teach themselves how to use it. A good number of wedding photographers I know that started in the film days had no actual training other then getting a camera, starting to take a large number of photos and getting the basics down and then working as an assistant to an established pro...which I guess counts as a sort of experience/training, but then again, a lot of them simply cut their teeth shooting friends and family weddings and developing their portfolio there and moving on.

It is utterly ridiculous to think that you will be able to bring about a certification program that announces someone as a professional. That would actually stifle the art, because who would do the rating? What if that person ended up having a "poor eye" and certified a lot of poor photographers.

If you are bad shooter, then it will show in the end. Yes it may cut some of the market away from established shooters as people are finding technologies that can allow them to cut the middle man (the photographer) out of the picture, but that means that the photographer is responsible for finding a new niche or marketing themselves differently, or if that is outside of their capabilities then they will have to stop doing what they do as the market will not bear their old way of practice.

Things change. Always have, always will.

Portrait painters railed against photography because people could get better quality portraits made, more cheaply and more quickly from a photographer. What ever happened to them?

The true pros will always shine compared to the masses because they are the ones with talent, which is still the soul of a good photo. This is the case with any art form. What we are going to see is the upper layer of mediocre photographers and down are going to be cast by the wayside as their services are no longer really needed and only see the greatest in the field be able to make a real living.

We will also see people that have better marketing capabilities still survive as they are able to be flexible and produce exactly what people want in a way that they want for the price that they want.

If you were looking to get rich, then no art field is the one to look into. You should only be doing this because it is your passion. It has never been the case that a mediocre-average shooter was able to make a better than survivable wage...ever, and even a good number of the legends in the field still would not be described as rich. Although there are a few that have made it to that level of "success" and that was because they were the cream of the crop and able to market themselves into that position where people would pay what ever it took to get them to produce photos for them.
--
Wow...that's a pretty killer camera! Are you any good?

-Jake-
 
Roman is a very talented shooter. If you look to his website you will see this, and what does his gear have to do with anything? (It's also funny that you say he has a Rebel as he is most often found talking about his escapades with this new D300 taking breath taking landscape shots in the Pacific NW)

You are a very seriously disturbed and angry man, who when faced with logic of any sort simply replies with lunacy and irrational anger.

You need to see a therapist I think, and maybe should walk away from what I am assuming is a failing endeavor in photography.

--
Wow...that's a pretty killer camera! Are you any good?

-Jake-
 
And there is basically my point. Photographers provide a luxury
service. Luxuries, by definition, are not essential.
I think those working with the visual arts may think of photography
as a necessity. How will they put their books, magazines, ads,
websites, news, etc. together without photography?
--
Possibly so (and I work in that arena), but on a strict necessity basis, none of the artis is essential to survival. Food, health, a place to rest a weary head, warmth in winter, water. The rest, or most of the rest, is luxury.

--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com

 
Ok, I've been sitting back reading these two silly threads for awhile now, but now it has gone too far. Someone has brought up the words logic and rationality. Those are two words that definitely don't belong in these threads, or the whole professional forum, for the most parts.

Come on people, we are all adults. Let's keep the posts uncivil, mean spirited and insulting, please, or I'm going back to watching the Olympics!
 
I hope you learn to think better.....and act better.

I will continue to succede...

You enjoy your bitter self.....in the end...its only you that you have to see in the mirror.

You see...I have your number too.....there are so many of your type out there.....people whos only purpose is to belittle others in the hopes of getting some sense of control....hoping to suck people down into the little hole you have dug for yourself.....cause misery loves company.

Have a nice day....

Roman
Thats because you are a "rube" newbie and the type all my posts are
directed toward... who has no knowledge about the culture, history or
business of photography...only a Canon rebel and a mouth !
--

'Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who are we to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous.

Actually, who are we not to be?'

--Marianne Williamson

http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
 

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