Lens reversal adapters

I've never used a reversal adapter for macro work. Do they work well? I'm thinking about using one with a 50mm 1.7 prime lens, because I don't do enough macro work to justify buying a dedicated macro lens.

I'm not even sure how they work. Do you need to find one that has your mount type on one side and the filter size of the lens you want to use on the other? Then, you screw the adapter to the lens filter threads and mount it to the body?

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Warpspasm said:

I've never used a reversal adapter for macro work. Do they work well?
I'm thinking about using one with a 50mm 1.7 prime lens, because I
don't do enough macro work to justify buying a dedicated macro lens.

Click to expand...

You may find that you don't need a reversing ring anyway

Warpspasm said:

I'm not even sure how they work. Do you need to find one that has
your mount type on one side and the filter size of the lens you want
to use on the other? Then, you screw the adapter to the lens filter
threads and mount it to the body?

Click to expand...

Not quite. The lens goes onto the reversing ring and the ring goes onto the extension device, most commonly a bellows.

Another variation is where you use the lens as a +20 dioptre close-up lens. This is done by using a male-male ring of the appropriate filter threads.

nickoly said:

Warpspasm said:

I've never used a reversal adapter for macro work. Do they work well?
I'm thinking about using one with a 50mm 1.7 prime lens, because I
don't do enough macro work to justify buying a dedicated macro lens.

Click to expand...

You may find that you don't need a reversing ring anyway

nickoly said:

I'm not even sure how they work. Do you need to find one that has
your mount type on one side and the filter size of the lens you want
to use on the other? Then, you screw the adapter to the lens filter
threads and mount it to the body?

Click to expand...

Not quite. The lens goes onto the reversing ring and the ring goes
onto the extension device, most commonly a bellows.

Another variation is where you use the lens as a +20 dioptre close-up
lens. This is done by using a male-male ring of the appropriate
filter threads.

Click to expand...

I think the last one is the one I'm thinking about. You actually mount the lens backwards on the body. But, I guess you have to make sure you get the correct filter size threads on the adapter.

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Warpspasm said:

I think the last one is the one I'm thinking about. You actually
mount the lens backwards on the body. But, I guess you have to make
sure you get the correct filter size threads on the adapter.

--

Click to expand...

That is a different thing.

You can mount a lens backwards in front of a telephoto lens to make that combination into a macro lens, which gives you the ability to change the focus a bit.

You are talking about mounting a reversed lens to a body, which gives you a fixed focus, so that is pretty constrained.

corsec67 said:

Warpspasm said:

I think the last one is the one I'm thinking about. You actually
mount the lens backwards on the body. But, I guess you have to make
sure you get the correct filter size threads on the adapter.

--

Click to expand...

That is a different thing.

You can mount a lens backwards in front of a telephoto lens to make
that combination into a macro lens, which gives you the ability to
change the focus a bit.

You are talking about mounting a reversed lens to a body, which gives
you a fixed focus, so that is pretty constrained.

Click to expand...

Wouldn't turning the manual focus ring on the reverse mounted lens allow focusing?

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Warpspasm

I don't know if this helps. The following were taken with a Pentax SMC 50mm F1.7 (c 1982) mounted to an E-1 with an original Pentax Reversing Ring (ie 49mm thread on one end, PK mount on other) via a PK-4/3 adapter.





I've been playing around with various (cheap) macro combinations for my E-1.

Results are fairly good (the PX 50mm F1.7 is a good performer anyway). Edges though can be soft, possibly due to the fact that DOF is slim and details on the edge fall outside DOF.

Working distance is minimal so not so good for hunting bugs

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Regards

Barry
----------------------------------------------
http://www.bawy.smugmug.com

Warpspasm said:

nickoly said:

Warpspasm said:

I've never used a reversal adapter for macro work. Do they work well?
I'm thinking about using one with a 50mm 1.7 prime lens, because I
don't do enough macro work to justify buying a dedicated macro lens.

Click to expand...

You may find that you don't need a reversing ring anyway

Warpspasm said:

I'm not even sure how they work. Do you need to find one that has
your mount type on one side and the filter size of the lens you want
to use on the other? Then, you screw the adapter to the lens filter
threads and mount it to the body?

Click to expand...

Not quite. The lens goes onto the reversing ring and the ring goes
onto the extension device, most commonly a bellows.

Another variation is where you use the lens as a +20 dioptre close-up
lens. This is done by using a male-male ring of the appropriate
filter threads.

Click to expand...

I think the last one is the one I'm thinking about. You actually
mount the lens backwards on the body. But, I guess you have to make
sure you get the correct filter size threads on the adapter.

Click to expand...

Read it again. Your 50mm lens is fixed to the camera lens. There is no point putting the lens backwards directly onto the body. If you are going to put it on the body, you might as well put it on the right way round like everybody else does. It tends to help with the focussing.

Bawy said:

Warpspasm

I don't know if this helps. The following were taken with a Pentax
SMC 50mm F1.7 (c 1982) mounted to an E-1 with an original Pentax
Reversing Ring (ie 49mm thread on one end, PK mount on other) via a
PK-4/3 adapter.





I've been playing around with various (cheap) macro combinations for
my E-1.

Results are fairly good (the PX 50mm F1.7 is a good performer
anyway). Edges though can be soft, possibly due to the fact that DOF
is slim and details on the edge fall outside DOF.

Working distance is minimal so not so good for hunting bugs

--
Regards

Barry
----------------------------------------------
http://www.bawy.smugmug.com

Click to expand...

How about putting up a pic of the actual setup of the lens mounted in reverse.

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Warpspasm said:

I've never used a reversal adapter for macro work. Do they work well?"

Click to expand...

Yes, but with very limited focusing range unless you mount the lens to a bellows or reverse a zoom to give you a range of macro ratios. Reversing a lens is the best way to make a non-macro lens corrected for the close distances used in Macro work.

Warpspasm said:

I'm not even sure how they work.

Click to expand...

First can you control your lens when it is reversed? If you have a Canon all of the controls are activated by electrical contacts. If you simply reverse a Canon lens you have no way of controlling the lens. A Novoflex RETRO adapter allows you to reverse mount a Canon lens on a Canon body and maintain all of the contacts to control the lens. It also adds a filter thread to the reversed lens so you can still use filters/hoods, etc.

If your camera does not work via lens contacts then all you need is a simple reverse adapter ring but everything will only be manually controlled. And there will be no way to use a hood, filters, polarizers, etc. except by holding them in place.

Warpspasm said:

Do you need to find one that has
your mount type on one side and the filter size of the lens you want
to use on the other? Then, you screw the adapter to the lens filter
threads and mount it to the body?

Click to expand...

Yes. And, depending on the size of the reverse adapter you may also need step-up or step-down rings to mate it to your lens.

nickoly said:

Read it again. Your 50mm lens is fixed to the camera lens. There is
no point putting the lens backwards directly onto the body. If you
are going to put it on the body, you might as well put it on the
right way round like everybody else does. It tends to help with the
focussing.

Click to expand...

There are two ways to reverse a lens: reversing it on another lens using a macro coupler and reversing it by itself using a reversing ring.

You can, in fact, reverse a single lens directly on the body. I do it all the time. Depending on the focal length you can get above 1:1.
--
http://www.zooomr.com/photos/incoherentfool/

Warpspasm said:

Wouldn't turning the manual focus ring on the reverse mounted lens
allow focusing?

Click to expand...

You'll be mounting the glass directly to the lens mount, so turning the manual focus ring wouldn't do anything. But that doesn't matter. When you're doing macro you can just move the whole camera in and out to focus.
--
http://www.zooomr.com/photos/incoherentfool/

nickoly said:

There is no point putting the lens backwards directly onto the body.

Click to expand...

On the contrary, there are two very good reasons for mounting the lens (typically a 50mm) directly to the body, but the WRONG way round...

1) You get more extension, so the lens will focus much closer, and allow much more magnification...It works like a built-in extension ring, although the amount of positive extension you get will not be the same for all lenses, of course.

2) Turning the lens around and pointing the back element at the subject very much MITIGATES against the lens not being a proper macro type designed for close working, thus making the lens perform better in close-ups than it would if mounted conventionally.

Indeed, points 1) and 2) above are the very reasons reverse adaptors were invented.

nickoly said:

If you
are going to put it on the body, you might as well put it on the
right way round like everybody else does. It tends to help with the
focusing.

Click to expand...

No. Reversing the standard 50mm lens is a good idea if you haven't got a macro lens to use, and it's not a bad idea when extension rings or bellows are used with a non-macro lens, also.

As for focusing...

Focusing in ultra close-up is easiest done by moving the whole camera back and forth by means of the tripod.. or moving the subject itself, if it is not alive. However, the lens focusing mechanism still works whichever way round the lens is fitted. It doesn't have a lot of effect when working very close, and that's true whichever way round the lens is, but is still useful for very fine TUNING of the focused plane.

Of course, the auto diaphragm mechanism will NOT work with a reversing ring because it isn't connected to anything..... so the lens will have to be set to the shooting aperture by hand. Never mind. For the first 150 years of photography, every photograph was done that way!! ;-)

Q: Is a reverse adaptor worth having in your kit?

A: Yes, definitely, as long as it isn't too expensive to buy.
Note: They are not so easy to find as they used to be.
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Regards,
Baz

Barrie Davis said:

Q: Is a reverse adaptor worth having in your kit?

A: Yes, definitely, as long as it isn't too expensive to buy.
Note: They are not so easy to find as they used to be.
--
Regards,
Baz

Click to expand...

I guess, since it has to match the filter size of your lens, that makes it even tougher to find.

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I've got a nikon one. It works well, and a 50 prime is a sharp backwards as forwards. My only gripe is that it is (to me) a creatively limiting set up. Since you focus by moving the camera, you essentially only get one composition that is in focus. Unless I am doing it wrong, which I wouldn't put by me.

poliscijustin said:

I've got a nikon one. It works well, and a 50 prime is a sharp
backwards as forwards. My only gripe is that it is (to me) a
creatively limiting set up. Since you focus by moving the camera, you
essentially only get one composition that is in focus. Unless I am
doing it wrong, which I wouldn't put by me.

Click to expand...

Good point. I guess the lens is always wide open, eh?

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Warpspasm said:

Warpspasm said:

Q: Is a reverse adaptor worth having in your kit?

A: Yes, definitely, as long as it isn't too expensive to buy.
Note: They are not so easy to find as they used to be.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Warpspasm said:

I guess, since it has to match the filter size of your lens, that
makes it even tougher to find.

Click to expand...

Not really.

The standard lens from full-frame film days [50mm] is the one most likely to be reverse mounted to the body in this way, so it is the "standard" filter size of a camera marque that is most often made. Nikon's most usual filter size was 52mm, and Canon's 56mm or 58mm, I think (can't remember for sure, sorry) so those are the ones that you would find most readily.

Then again... no reason why you couldn't use a step-up ring to adapt one that was close.

Similarly, when using the wide aperture 50mm reverse mounted onto the FRONT of a longer tele lens (typically 135mm, but anything around 100mm will do, even a zoom) which is when the 50 acts as a super-powerful auxiliary close-up lens.....

.... again, the easiest sizes to find are those that match the most likely lenses to be used this way... (52/52 for Nikon etc... see above)

Hint: If you want to fabricate a filter-thread-to-filter-thread mount for any lens combination, buy a Cokin adaptor for each lens in question, and epoxy them together, back-to-back. This leaves a substantial flange sticking out between the lenses, but this is no bad thing as it makes them much easier to unscrew after use.
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Regards,
Baz

you can change the aperture, but, IIRC, the focus ring doesn't do anything.

poliscijustin said:

you can change the aperture, but, IIRC, the focus ring doesn't do
anything.

Click to expand...

Focus ring does work, and focusing is taking place, but even full range twisting is such a very small fraction of the lens' total extension that the effect is practically invisible. Much easier to focus by pulling the camera back and forth, or the subject itself...

... and micro-driven tables/slides are made for the purpose... but they are a bit expensive for casual use.
--
Regards,
Baz

Warpspasm said:

poliscijustin said:

Since you focus by moving the camera, you
essentially only get one composition that is in focus. Unless I am
doing it wrong, which I wouldn't put by me.

Click to expand...

Good point. I guess the lens is always wide open, eh?

Click to expand...

The lens you are considering using sounds like something off an old 35mm SLR. If so it is likely to have a manually operated iris and you can still use this OK. Even if it is one with open aperture metering it is still likely to be OK. Most lenses have an auto manual lever on them and, essentially, if it has an aperture ring, you can still use it. You can probably even stop it down by pushing the pin and lever, or whatever.

As polisci said, the iris ring works, the focus ring doesn't. The focus distance depends entirely on how far the lens is from the filter thread, i.e. luck. My Takumar focuses at about a foot, which is nothing to write home about. Further, if there is any improvement by reversing a 50mm lens at these barely macro distances, you can be sure the lens is junk. Ignore the other guy. He has the only lens in the universe that focuses each way and you can be sure he won't be selling it. At best it may be a weird zoom and you can be equally sure it doesn't apply to the lens you have in mind. If you can twist the focus ring at all, you do nothing more than move the lens mount in and out. You are thus stuck with one magnification ratio and can only focus by moving the camera, as polisci said.

To rectify this you can
1. Use a variety of extension tubes
2. use a focussing tube (they exist but I have never seen one)
3. use bellows

Note that, with the amount of magnification obtained with bellows, you may be working with the lens stationary and the camera moving. Not all are very suitable for this.

I've taken some pretty good bug shots with a 50m f1.8 reverse-mounted directly on the body. Nikon made a reversing ring called the BR-3? They even made a bayonete to filter adapter so you could put a filter on the rear-element end of your reversed ring!

John Shaw's book "Close-ups in Nature" has very good descriptions of several close-up methods, including reversing lenses, stacking lenses (a 50mm reversed on a 200mm) extension tubes, bellows, diopters, etc. He also discusses using macro lenses, extension tubes and teleconverters. Did you know that you can change the magnification of a teleconverter by putting an extension tube between it and the camera? Anyway, it's the best book I've read on macro photography. He touches on macro in some of his other books, but he gets into technicals and gear the most in "Close-ups in Nature." I highly recommend it.