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Adobe on WIC

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WSLam

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I posted a question on the Adobe ACR forum and ask if Adobe has plans to support the new P6000 RAW format, which requires WIC.

Two very knowledgeable experts replied to the post.

Jeff Schewe said:

"Yeah, right...like THAT'S a brilliant move on Nikon's part....NRW, that's all we need, yet another stupid raw file format extension.

BTW, you failed to mention the entire name of the camera, COOLPIX P6000–I'm sure that face finding technology will be a big hit with pros...

: ) "

and Thomas Knoll said:

"WIC is Windows only.

Even on Windows, WIC is basically useless for Camera Raw/Lightroom type applications"

The original thread is here:
http://www.adobeforums.com/webx/.3bb6a869.59b61a1b/4

Doesn't look like it's gonna happen. P6000 RAW may remain Windows only forever!

--
A CPS & NPS Member
Digital is not Polaroid. Shoot RAW.
 
perhaps you don't get it. your reply has already been deleted. i think that says it all.
markdavis said:
just don't get it do you?
Click to expand...
--
A CPS & NPS Member
Digital is not Polaroid. Shoot RAW.
 
your reply also has been deleted. that says it all

see my links instead. dng wic is available and is just fine. things are going 100% wic in maximum 5 years.
 
Marc,

You keep on repeating the same inaccurate things in a multitude of threads.

1. The DNG WIC codec you are referring to is just to provide WIC enabled applications access to DNG files. Nothing to do with our discussion

2. Adobe's Thomas Knoll (do you even know who he is?) has explicitly said that WIC is useless for working with apps like ACR and LR.

3. Under WIC the raw decoding (demosaicing) and all allowed raw functionality is provided and controlled by the codec. Thus if the codec only allows to change the WB there's nothing the WIC app can do about it...

4. Pls. show us one (just 1) reasonably capable raw converter and editor that has been developed to work under WIC. Pls. do not point us to the stupid MS toy of an application. This is not a raw converter editor it is a toy. There's no full raw converter at this time to decode NRW files under WIC (nor any other files mind you). Raw browser yes, raw editor no.
--
 
nikosR said:
3. Under WIC the raw decoding (demosaicing) and all allowed raw
functionality is provided and controlled by the codec. Thus if the
codec only allows to change the WB there's nothing the WIC app can do
about it...
Click to expand...
let me guess. you thing that right now adobe is developing canon or nikon importers without help from canon or nikon themselves? they're just hacking any file format on the planet by themselves right???

dream on.
 
I am sure there's is some limited co-operation. Pls. explain what this has to do with our WIC discussion.

There are two issues here. WIC and Nikon's NRW. With regards to WIC pls. see my previous post. Let me just add that I cannot see Adobe relying on another party's conversion and provided functionality. If they would do that they would have used the Nikon SDK for NEFs also. They just don't work this way. They want to provide uniform raw conversion and handling for all supported formats using their own algorithms. They also push DNG...

With regards to NRW i.e. Adobe or any other 3rd party providing direct (WIC-less) access and conversion of NRW files in the future, your guess is as good as mine. I won't hold my breath though. Let's hope that Nikon has not taken measures (encryption, legal) to avoid this happening. Let's also hope that Adobe or another reputable 3rd party will be bothered (though I doubt it).
 
markdavis said:
you thing that right now adobe is developing canon or
nikon importers without help from canon or nikon themselves?
Click to expand...
Actually, the original ACR effort apparently started with David Coffin's routines, which are reverse engineered. Adobe then added their own engineering efforts on top of that. That probably would have been the status quo even today had it not been for Nikon's unexpected encrypting of the white balance EXIF tag beginning with the D2xs. After great push back by users put pressure on Nikon, Nikon worked out a "mini SDK" that allows developers to get that information without having to break the DMCA to get it. To my knowledge, Adobe does not get any tangible help from Nikon on deciphering raw files other than the mini SDK. The whole new profile system is another reverse engineering effort on Adobe's part, not a result of Nikon giving Adobe spectral and other needed information to map colors the way Nikon does.

So the answer to your question is, yes, Adobe is doing their support of Nikon cameras through their own efforts.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (18 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
So why can't adobe?

These aren't magic file formats. They're just minor variations of existing ones.

NRW could be something different. I'd be surprised, tho. Unless Nikon decided that now was the time to start forcing people to buy their software.
 
Makinations said:
So why can't adobe?
Click to expand...
code can be transformed and/or encrypted. sure -- it can also be broken. Thomas Knoll already answered this question addressing the NEF issues on the D2xs and D70s. when one of the ten largest software companies breaks a law, there are a far more assets that can be chased down than a small developer like David Coffin.

also, I don't think the community would rally around Adobe given current tensions.

--
the born 2 design
design guy
 
nunatak said:
Makinations said:
So why can't adobe?
Click to expand...
code can be transformed and/or encrypted. sure -- it can also be
broken. Thomas Knoll already answered this question addressing the
NEF issues on the D2xs and D70s. when one of the ten largest software
companies breaks a law, there are a far more assets that can be
chased down than a small developer like David Coffin.

also, I don't think the community would rally around Adobe given
current tensions.
Click to expand...
Why not?
 
markdavis said:
nikosR said:
3. Under WIC the raw decoding (demosaicing) and all allowed raw
functionality is provided and controlled by the codec. Thus if the
codec only allows to change the WB there's nothing the WIC app can do
about it...
Click to expand...
let me guess. you thing that right now adobe is developing canon or
nikon importers without help from canon or nikon themselves? they're
just hacking any file format on the planet by themselves right???

dream on.
Click to expand...
Actually, it's a well known fact that Adobe have had to reverse-engineer the contents of NEF files. Nikon made some slight changes to the way (lossy) compressed NEFs are encoded when the D3 & D300 were introduced. The change was only apparent in very rare cases though, and initially Adobe's software couldn't decode them properly although it has since been fixed.

--
http://www.pixelfixer.org
 
So "WIC compatible raw images" can be decoded on Windows Vista machines, by a windows module / api. The visible raw developer, acts really only as a front end or control interface.

Adobe could choose to reverse engineer to the new YARF (yet another raw format) files, as they have done in the past, but not if any part of the file is encrypted. If there is a component of encryption (as there was with the D2xs) then adobe will stay clear. Even without any encryption / DMCA issues, it would be hard at the present time to imagine adobe working up a sweat to crack this raw format.

This really isn't, or mustn't be a camera intended for people who use applications like photoshop or lightroom. Despite the high end aspirations of this digicam, it is targeted at a market "beneath" the likes of the canon G9 or the new panasonic LX3. Perhaps this camera is intended to be marketed aggressively to windows Vista users who may be more likely to buy a genuine microsoft photo editing application.

Perhaps Microsoft will be bundling copies of Vista with the new Nikon P6000. perhaps Bill Gates, now in semi-pseudo-retirement will be working more closely with Nikon, perhaps faciliating the eventual merger and formation of micro-nik-soft... just kidding.

On a positive note; perhaps this suggests that a more seriously specced Nikon digicam is on the way. Perhaps a DX chipped EVIL camera or some such creation.
 
John W Peterson said:
So "WIC compatible raw images" can be decoded on Windows Vista
machines, by a windows module / api.
Click to expand...
The files could also be decoded on XP if the Nikon NRW codec is installable on that platform like their NEF codec is.
John W Peterson said:
The visible raw developer, acts
really only as a front end or control interface.
Click to expand...
Exactly.
John W Peterson said:
Adobe could choose to reverse engineer to the new YARF (yet another
raw format) files, as they have done in the past, but not if any part
of the file is encrypted. If there is a component of encryption (as
there was with the D2xs) then adobe will stay clear. Even without any
encryption / DMCA issues, it would be hard at the present time to
imagine adobe working up a sweat to crack this raw format.
This really isn't, or mustn't be a camera intended for people who use
applications like photoshop or lightroom.
Click to expand...
Nothing prevents Adobe to write a small WIC host for its applications. Maybe it won't fit underneath the existing ACR for various reasons, but it would be quite easy for them to make a new, separate import plug-in which in turn relies on WIC and its codecs for opening the files. That would give them instant compatibility with the P6000 raw files, whathever they are, and the best thing is that they could write this wrapper and test it without ever needing to actually see what's inside a NRW file.

Even a default, canned conversion would be better than nothing, but they can also go an extra mile and surface the raw developement functions exposed by the codec, whathever Nikon has implemented. While certainly less sophisticated than what ACR has to offer, this would nevertheless let people convert, tweak and import P6000 pictures directly into Photoshop instead of going through ViewNX first.

Is there an extensible image file-format plugin framework that both the OS and any app can use on the Mac? If yes then Nikon will certainly provide a codec for it, too, and Adobe could wrap it just like on Windows to import the files.

--
Axel
http://axelriet.blogspot.com
http://www.fastpictureviewer.com
 
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