LX3: A few more night shots (ISO 200 or 400 / F2.0)

I know Dave Santora already made this point, but I think it is worth making again.

PixieGlitter said:

So far, the
pictures above base ISO have yet to impress me, which is sad. Yes,
the f2 lens is a touch faster than the standard f2.8/f3.3 lenses
found on most digicams, but if I wanted a camera that had a fast lens
and a zoom, I'd get myself an old Oly C-series camera with a 3x zoom
and an f1.8 lens for peanuts on the used market, instead of spending
it $500 on the LX3. That's just me though.

Click to expand...

I think you're underestimating the lens on the LX3. At it's widest setting it is able to open up to f/2.0, while the F100fd is going to already be at f/3.3 at it's widest focal length. At the LX3's longest focal length (equivalent to 60mm in 35mm terms) the lens can still open up to f/2.8. The F100fd is probably going to be somewhere between f/4.0 and f/5.1 by the time it reaches the equivalent focal length of 60mm.

That means you'll need to increase the ISO on the Fuji to compensate for the slower lens. You'll have to more than double the ISO as a matter of fact. While the LX3 is able to shoot at, say, ISO 400... the F100fd will need something around ISO 1000-1200 to achieve the same shutter speed since the lens will be something on the order of 1.5 stops slower. So the LX3 doesn't have to be as good at high ISO since it has the faster lens.

Then again it really depends on what photos you want to take. Even with the small sensor in the LX3 (relative to my Nikon D200 anyway), it is capable of fairly shallow depth of field when the lens is used wide open. If you want to focus on an object in front of you, and have the background be in focus, you may want to stop down for more depth of field. So there are times when high ISO and/or vibration reduction trump wide apertures. My attraction to the LX3 is the fact that it does allow for more depth of field control... something I miss when I use my LX2 (which has a slower lens) instead of my DSLR.

I personally would not expect the LX3 to be as low noise as a Fuji SuperCCD camera at high ISO, but the strengths of the LX3 are in the lens and at ISOs of 400 and below. I try to avoid ISO 400 on the LX2, but the LX3 looks like a significant improvement from what I've seen. It should also be noted that it's possible to get excellent ISO 400 prints out of the LX2 by shooting RAW and processing with a noise reduction app like NoiseWare or NoiseNinja.

Fuji makes great cameras, and I would probably recommend the F100fd to most people, but the LX3 is probably going to be the better camera for people like me... who crave control, RAW, fast lenses, and a zoom range skewed to the wider rather than the longer.

Sean

I for one think the G9 example you posted is far, far better. It is sharp. The noise is not color noise and fine. It can be easily dealt with.

dkny said:

Hmm... I thought folks were excited about the LX3 because it was not
keeping pace in the silly megapixel wars. so why bash the C5050's
resolution?

Instead, the key point is the LX3's ultra wide lens -- 24mm! And
it's also a bit smaller than the C5050.

Click to expand...

I'm equally as excited about the 24mm lens and the f/2-2.8 aperture. I really don't care much about the high ISO performance. Just shoot RAW and use noise reduction software and you will be able to increase ISO when you need to. You may not be able to get anywhere close to as clean a print at ISO 1600 or 3200 as you can get with a full frame DSLR, but what do you expect from a compact P&S with a compact sensor?

Personally I care more about wide angle, wide aperture (for low light AND shallower depth of field), and RAW than I do about high ISO performance. If I absolutely need low light performance I'll carry my DSLR and a tripod.

dkny said:

Personally, I can't wait to see if the LX3 lives up to its specs. My
fingers are crossed. How many more days do we have to wait?

Click to expand...

I'm sure the LX3 will be fast-tracked on the DPReview review queue, but I bet it will still be quite some time before we see a review here. I would expect to see less comprehensive professional reviews hitting the Web in the next few weeks.... by which time we should have a boat-load of amateur reviews, sample shots, and opinions.

I've been using a DMC-LX2 for about a year now, and it's a great little camera that has an unfortunately noisy sensor. That hasn't really been an issue for me though. I use this camera when I'm not carrying my DSLR kit. If I'm shooting at night or inside dimly lit buildings I'll use the built-in flash (though it's not as nice as using an external flashgun or a fast lens that can get around using flash). If I'm shooting outdoors it is usually during the day... even at early morning or around sunset I can get away with the base ISO if I steady myself... mostly thanks to the vibration reduction (which seems to be very good in this camera). As a DSLR shooter the LX2 is one of the few compact cameras I've picked up that I actually enjoy shooting with. The controls are excellent, it's reasonably responsive, the manual focus is easy enough to use, the 16:9 aspect ratio capability allows me to explore some interesting compositions I can't get with my DSLR (but I can still shoot in the familiar 3:2), and the angle of view is wider than average.

It sounds like Panasonic really listened to LX2 users and created a camera that hopefully improves the noise issue (even though that doesn't affect most of the photos I take with it), and makes a great lens even better... so long as you like the range it provides. I know it won't be long enough reach for some, but I generally prefer wider to longer. And I definitely prefer a faster lens to using high ISO... and I love that you can shoot RAW with these cameras. To me that makes a huge difference. So I'll probably be putting my LX2 onto the auction block sometime in the near future so I can buy the LX3. I'll still probably have to come up with half the cash. While the LX3 is an expensive compact P&S, there is definitely some value in having a camera this capable with me at all times. Sure I can carry my DSLR with a compact zoom or prime in a pretty small bag, but it's not as compact as an LX2/LX3.

Sean

Thanks for nice summary that I wanted to provide!

--
Junho Shin

sean000 said:

If I'm shooting at night or inside dimly lit
buildings I'll use the built-in flash (though it's not as nice as
using an external flashgun or a fast lens that can get around using
flash).
Sean

Click to expand...

Sean, do you expect you'll be able to use an external flash other than the two Lumix flashes listed on the accessories page?

I hope that that is not representative of the G9...just a bad example.

Robert Deutsch said:

Hand-held 1/6 sec. at wide angle is not that difficult with any
Panasonic camera that has OIS. Here's a shot at 1/5 taken with the
TZ5--and I don't consider myself to have extraordinary skill in
keeping the camera steady.

Bob

Click to expand...

The problem is exacerbated by looking at the images at 100%. You can get away with 1/6 seconds, if you present/print at small size. But you immediately see the results from hand-shake if you see the image at 100%, as in the original samples posted.

C'mon guys. Let's wait until the LX3 comes out. It'll probably be fine, and should at least be better than the TZ3/5, which sometimes isn't bad.

Here's some long-ish exposure examples, first one from my now sold TZ3(!), second from my current TZ5 at ISO 800.
-M1
TZ3, ISO 100, f3.3, 28mm, 1.0 sec hand-held (hand against fence), no PP



TZ5. ISO 800, f4.2, 49mm, 1/8 second hand-held, no PP

bstring said:

sean000 said:

If I'm shooting at night or inside dimly lit
buildings I'll use the built-in flash (though it's not as nice as
using an external flashgun or a fast lens that can get around using
flash).
Sean

Click to expand...

Sean, do you expect you'll be able to use an external flash other
than the two Lumix flashes listed on the accessories page?

Click to expand...

Any autoflash with its own sensor should work. You will not get TTL but I have never found that to be a problem.

hizzoner said:

bstring said:

Sean, do you expect you'll be able to use an external flash other
than the two Lumix flashes listed on the accessories page?

Click to expand...

Any autoflash with its own sensor should work. You will not get TTL
but I have never found that to be a problem.

Click to expand...

Right...I forgot for a moment that the LX3 does have a hotshoe for an external flash. However, that's not really a feature I'm likely to use... even if my Nikon flashguns work just fine. The point of the LX3 for me is to be able to leave my DSLR kit at home and carry something around that is much smaller and lighter. If I'm going to carry a flashgun, it's not much more to go ahead and carry my DSLR with a compact zoom or prime. Even my SB-600 flash is larger and heavier than an LX3. Imagine mounting Nikon's new monster SB-900 flash on a poor little LX3! That would be quite a sight to see. Now a small flash like Nikon's SB-400 would be great on the LX3 and would still make for a very compact package... but the Panasonic compact flash would be the better way to go unless you already own the SB-400. Both items would fit into a coat pocket or small bag. You're still getting into bag territory though... and that's when I feel I might as well carry the DSLR.

I've had the LX2 for about a year and I'd say I've used the built-in flash for less than 5% of the shots. If I carried an external flash I probably wouldn't use it very much, because the way I use the LX2 is for shots I'm going to take without flash anyway. That said, if I'm heading to a party or event where I don't want to walk in with a big DSLR kit that screams "photo geek," I would love to have an LX3 and a compact external flash with a diffuser. Sure the external flash would still brand me as a photo-geek, but at least I'd come away with good photos and it wouldn't be as awkward as whipping out a D200 with monster f/2.8 zoom and SB-800 at a party where I was not asked to take photos.

Sean