Micro 4/3 is a standard not a product

I just want to state this and start this thread because there is such a lot of nonsense being posted about this. Quite clearly this announcement lays out the physical dimensions and contacts of the proposed mount and format.

Yes it implies products will be released soon. But primarily this announcement is about a standard the the iminent and future cameras will conform to as regards the mount and the format. It appears that 2 phases are predicted. Firstly the release of some cameras and lenses using this mount but probably using existing technology. Secondly, cameras in the future that will take advantage of technology not yet available.

http://www.four-thirds.org/en/microft/index.html#SlideFrame_9

It clearly states "These two contacts will also be used in high-speed data processing required for the movie handling capability expected in the future."

Therefore, indicating that a primary purpose of this platform is to take advantage of future developments. Many of those posting on these threads are engaging in what is called the "Straw Man Logical Fallacy". This is to misrepresent someone's argument to make it look ridiculous, and then to argue against this misrepresentation as if that is what they have actually said.

As no product has yet been released, and as the standard/platform is to ultimately to take advantage of "high-speed data processing required for the movie handling capability expected in the future" - implying at least 18 months to 2 years later down the line, because this is normally the minimum amount of time it takes to get new technology onto the market - what is the point of all those arguing against the technical limitations of a product which does not actually exist yet.

All these misconstrued arguments seem to be because people don't appear to understand the difference between the announcement of a standard and a product.

A standard is a set of specifications that anyone who produces a product under this standard must comply with. It is just like when Philips came up with the standard for a CD. They will say here is the technical specifications of the standard of this proposed product type, and anyone wants to produce something under this standard must comply with these specification. As far as I can see their is nothing to stop Canon, Nikon, Sony etc, signing up to this standard and releasing products complying with it - even though it would be very unlikely that they would. Take when Canon introduced the EOS system. They did not have to release the standard because they had no intenition of allowing any one else to use it or release products compatible with it, as they were all licenced and they would not grant licences. This is why independent lenses such as Sigma have to be back engineered. However, go to the example of the CD, and others can either produce CDs or CD Players if they comply with these standards.

A product is something that will go on sale. The other camera manufacturers only normally make product annnouncements and do not release the details of their systems standards because they have no intention of letting anyone else release products which comply with their in house "Standards", which they generally keep secret to stop them from being copied.

However, a large proportion of people posting here, are acting and arguing as is a product had been released which is not yet the case. They are arguing agaisnst their own hypothetical idea of a product whole details have not been released. Everything Panasonic and Olympus have so far done, is in line with how a manufacturer would normally act if they were releasing a set of standards, that allowed other manufacturers to produce products which comply with these standards. They also needed to clarify how this new standard would be compatible with the other 4/3 standard.

Just a bit of perspective. A "standard" may or may not be just a spec for one manufacturer. Olympus made big noise about all the companies who were signing onto the 4/3 standard, but in fact the 4/3 cameras on the market are made by Olympus and sold by either Olympus or affiliated companies that essentially rebadge Olympus bodies with minor cosmetic and feature changes. For a lens maker like Sigma, adopting the "standard" for 4/3 simply means adding a compatible lens mount and CPU to their existing lens products - the same thing they do for every other manufacturer's lens mount Sigma markets.

Olympus marketers are making much of what is essentially a new interchangeable lens mount for the same sensor format as 4/3. I have no doubt that Panasonic and probably Leica will sell Olympus Micro 4/3 cameras and there will likely be some expensive Leica designed and branded lenses for the new mount. Yes, the standard includes electronic specs for the lens mount but we're really just talking about a new lens mount. It's very signficant that Olympus is committed to developing new compact cameras via a new lens mount, compatible with 4/3 mount lenses. But I very much doubt that the Micro 4/3 standard will be adopted by more than the current Olympus partners. If other manufacturers are interested in delivering similar products they'll likely come out with their own lens mounts (sorry, "standards") along with compatibility with their own existing lens lineups.

I agree with you that everyone is using the empty vessel that Olympus has announced to project their own hope and biases for whatever cameras may come. That's what Olympus marketing wanted - lots of buzz and excitement before even a hint of a real product.

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BJ Nicholls
SLC, UT

I both agree and disagree with some of what you say. It is true that Pansonic DSLRs contain components from Olympus cameras like the mirror box, but they are not simply re-badged Olympus models and are in many ways quite different. Whilst its true that only Panasonic and Leica (their camera was on the face of it just a re-badged Panasonic because it even looked the same) produced 4/3 cameras it is not entirely the fault of Olympus who did create an open standard.

By the very nature of an open standard, you have to declare what this standard is, and if you create an adjunct such as micro 4/3, then you have to declare what this is. Certainly a buzz has been created. However, given that all that has been announced is the tecnical details of flanges and contacts, and a brief pre-amble about its purpose and objectives they have done very little to create this buzz. The fact that a buzz has been created has more to do with the need of many photographers for large sensored compact camera, than what they have said.

If you stand back and look at what has been actually said, it has actually all been rather dry and unsensational - just a statement of intent. The revolutionary aspect of this announcement is perhaps most revealed in the response of the naysayers, whose near hysterical response, contradicts what they are saying.

After thinking about it a bit more it does appear as if Panasonic and Olympus are more or less conceding that 4/3 is just their collaboration, especially with micro 4/3, which I am not certain is still an open standard, although because it interfaces with an open standard, it is someways still open.

However, having thought about it I see nothing at all to stop Canon, Nikon, Sony and Samsung/Pentax doing the same thing. That is not just creating an EVIL camera compatible with the their existing range of SLR lenses. Rather creating an EVIL camera with a short back flange distance, and a few shorter lenses, and making all the rest of the lenses compatible via an adaptor. If it was based on an APS--C or slightly smaller sensor it would be similar to the Panasonic/Olympus system. I would have thought that the main problem with this from a marketing point of view is that it will just appear as if they are just copying micro 4/3, even if it had already been on the drawing board. Another advantage for Panasonic is that they don't have much baggage from a pre-existing system to worry about.

I think the buzz is because everyone has been expecting an EVIL camera for some time and they are angry because it first came from 4/3 and not from their own brand.

By the way my primary camera system is now Canon, and while I do still have a 4/3 system I was going to sell it. The only difference now is that I might keep my 2 macro lenses to use with one of these new compact bodies, and sell the rest as I only want one type of DSLR and I'm sticking with Canon on this. So I am not being partisan on this. Personally, it would suit me a lot more to have an EVIL compact that would take my Canon lenses, but one has not been announced - who knows Photokina may bring surprises and perhaps Panasonic and Olympus have been clever in pre-empting an announcement by Canon or someone else.

SteB said:

perhaps Panasonic and Olympus
have been clever in pre-empting an announcement by Canon or someone
else.

Click to expand...

It might be that they are just buying some more time because their actual product is less developed that others in the same niche (big size sensor compacts).

There are rumours of Nikon and Fuji compacts with APS sized sensors and maybe Olu are sending the message that is worth to wait for the same, plus interchangeable lenses. Otherwise, I think It would have been more effective to show some product or at least some specs and a launch date.

OTOH, in the Oly forums there are some posts by Simon Joinson which are quite open to interpretations so, who knows. Regards

--
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My Galleries: http://webs.ono.com/igonzalezbordes/index.html

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igb said:

There are rumours of Nikon and Fuji compacts with APS sized sensors
and maybe Olu are sending the message that is worth to wait for the
same, plus interchangeable lenses. Otherwise, I think It would have
been more effective to show some product or at least some specs and
a launch date...

Click to expand...

That's just wishfull thinking. None of the major camera manufacturers has stated anything about introducing a new standard in the like of micro 4/3. Let's wait and see. Canonika usually need two to three years to jump on the bandwagon.

SteB said:

Yes it implies products will be released soon. But primarily this
announcement is about a standard the the iminent and future cameras
will conform to as regards the mount and the format.

Click to expand...

This may be a semantic argument, but I think I disagree. Who cares about a standard other than the people who have to follow it ? So Oly came up with a new lens mount ... doesn't every camera manufacturer come up with standards for new product lines ? Why doesn't anyone else announce their standards ?

I think the intent of the announcement is to drop hints about a new product line, providing enough information to allow us to speculate without having to make promises.

• Dennis

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Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com

Kikl said:

Kikl said:

There are rumours of Nikon and Fuji compacts with APS sized sensors
and maybe Olu are sending the message that is worth to wait for the
same, plus interchangeable lenses. Otherwise, I think It would have
been more effective to show some product or at least some specs and
a launch date...

Click to expand...

That's just wishfull thinking. None of the major camera manufacturers
has stated anything about introducing a new standard in the like of
micro 4/3. Let's wait and see. Canonika usually need two to three
years to jump on the bandwagon.

Click to expand...

No, the above post says "compacts" with "APS sized sensors" and that Oly is working on "the same, plus interchangeable lenses". So not only has no manufacturer stated anything about such a standard, neither did the post you replied to.

There are rumors of a Nikon APS-C fixed lens compact; the Fuji one is news to me ... there could be more coming with the cameras shows coming soon. With the recent excitement over the Panasonic LX3 (because of its fast lens), the disappointment over the DP1, it's easy to see the market is dying to get its hands on a large sensor carry-everywhere camera, and it could very well be that Oly wants to get the word out before everyone else spoils the party with announced products.

I honestly don't expect "micro APS-C" ... I expect mirrorless "EVIL" cameras for existing lens mounts, but they'll be big ... Oly should have this niche market to itself. But that niche market will be made smaller by the presence of large sensor compacts (or, rather, the absence of large sensor compacts would make the m4/3 market bigger).

• Dennis

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Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com

I think you've not actually read my posts because I clearly explained why other camera manufacturers have not announced their standards. The original 4/3 was an open standard within which any manufacturer could make a camera or lens as longs as it complied with that standard. Whereas with other manufacturers their system is closed and they don't want anyone else to find out about their internal standards or interface. In this sense it is no different than any other open standard.

It does appear questionable if the new 4/3 standard is open to anyone or just a collaboration between Panasonic and Olympus. Nevertheless, as it interfaces with an open standard they have to announce what that connectivity is. They have done little more than to state what this new standard is, what its for and the type of product they plan to work with it. Given the revolutionary nature of this their press release is quite restrained. It is the posters to forums like this that have made the big song and dance. You are wrong, in that plenty of other camera manufacturers do anounce intentions long before they produce their products - just take the Sony A900, as far as I know it has never been officially unvelied but its specifications are widely known. A lot of the response has been due to some rabid anti-Olympus attitude amongst many who use other systems. By the way my main DSLR system is now Canon.

No, the above post says "compacts" with "APS sized sensors" and that

Dennis said:

Oly is working on "the same, plus interchangeable lenses". So not
only has no manufacturer stated anything about such a standard,
neither did the post you replied to.

There are rumors of ...

Click to expand...

Rumours of Nikon and Fuji compacts with APS sized sensors are rumours and not facts. Therefore, it believe this to be wishfull thinking. Fuji recently introduced a bridge camera without such a sensor, I wonder why they did this, if they are on the verge of introducing APS sized sensors in the non-DSLR-Camera-market. The huge and top of the line bridge S100Fs would have been the obvious choice. Therefore, I don't believe it. The rumours are what they are, rumours and nothing else.

Dennis said:

SteB said:

Yes it implies products will be released soon. But primarily this
announcement is about a standard the the iminent and future cameras
will conform to as regards the mount and the format.

Click to expand...

This may be a semantic argument, but I think I disagree. Who cares
about a standard other than the people who have to follow it ? So
Oly came up with a new lens mount ... doesn't every camera
manufacturer come up with standards for new product lines ? Why
doesn't anyone else announce their standards ?

I think the intent of the announcement is to drop hints about a new
product line, providing enough information to allow us to speculate
without having to make promises.

• Dennis

--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com

Click to expand...

Standards are announced publicley, such that anybody may use the standard. The other camera manufacturers don't publicize standards, because they don't want competitors to produce the same kine of product. Olympus and Panasonic want other manufacturers to join in the standard in order to provide for a larger number of lenses for the cameras.

I've never seen information that 4/3 or the Micro 4/3 are open standards. I'll bet there is licensing from Olympus, but I'd love to see where Olympus makes the specs and technical information open for any manufacturer to use freely. Olympus obviously wants partners in their platform to jump start product depth and acceptance, but that's not the same as creating an open standard.

Oops, looks like we both just read the article that definitively says that Micro 4/3 is not and open standard. The announcement therefore is all about marketing.

--
BJ Nicholls
SLC, UT

Kikl said:

Kikl said:

Oly is working on "the same, plus interchangeable lenses". So not
only has no manufacturer stated anything about such a standard,
neither did the post you replied to.

There are rumors of ...

Click to expand...

Rumours of Nikon and Fuji compacts with APS sized sensors are rumours
and not facts. Therefore, it believe this to be wishfull thinking.

Click to expand...

After a while you get a feel for rumors, like when Thom Hogan says "it's a question of when" you get the feeling it'll be on the market long before any micro 4/3 product. Some rumors are more reliable than, say, some companies' "road maps" ...

• Dennis

--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com

Kikl said:

Standards are announced publicley, such that anybody may use the
standard. The other camera manufacturers don't publicize standards,
because they don't want competitors to produce the same kine of
product. Olympus and Panasonic want other manufacturers to join in
the standard in order to provide for a larger number of lenses for
the cameras.

Click to expand...

So they do it through a press release ? I'd think they would have informed the 3rd party lens makers through other channels (and I don't know who else would be interested).

I recall Minolta going from a 5-pin to an 8-pin lens mount when they introduced their SSM lenses; they announced the lenses, not the "standard" even though the lens mount is available to 3rd party manufacturers to license. Given that the 3rd party lens manufacturers license the mounts from these companies, what's the difference ?

Why did Canon announce an APS-C DSLR instead of announcing the new lens mount even though 3rd party lens manufacturers licensed it ? (There's rumor that Sigma doesn't license all mounts, but reverse engineers at least some; no idea how true it is, but it has led to compatibility problems at various points in time).

Nikon has Tamron, Tokina, Sigma, Cosina and maybe others making lenses to fit its cameras, and Fuji making cameras to fit its lenses, yet Oly announces "standards" so that Sigma can throw 'em a bone once in a while ... just doesn't make sense.

• Dennis

--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com

Its an open standard according to the press release:

"The Four Thirds System standard is an open standard that enables bodies and lenses produced by participating manufacturers to exchange information and be used interchangeably with one another." Look here:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0808/08080501microfourthirds.asp

Dennis said:

Kikl said:

Standards are announced publicley, such that anybody may use the
standard. The other camera manufacturers don't publicize standards,
because they don't want competitors to produce the same kine of
product. Olympus and Panasonic want other manufacturers to join in
the standard in order to provide for a larger number of lenses for
the cameras.

Click to expand...

So they do it through a press release ? I'd think they would have
informed the 3rd party lens makers through other channels (and I
don't know who else would be interested).

Click to expand...

Sure, why should they use any other channel. It's simple and fast. Any potential participant, even any company that they may not have considered themselves, is sure to find out. So a press release is the best thing they can do to promote an open standard. The rest of what youre saying is again - pure speculation.

If you've never seen anything that states the 4/3 system is an open standard then you've either never looked for it or previously read much news about photography because I believe it was announced in around 2003 and has hardly been a secret. http://www.four-thirds.org/en/about/standard.html

Likewise you have obviously not read my previous posts in this threat or you would know I'd said that it was questionable how much the micro 4/3 standard is open or how much it is simply a collaboration between Panasonic and Olympus, before the BJP link was posted. However, I also made the point that as it happens to interface with an open standard it would obviously be necessary to declare this interface with regard to the open 4/3 standard.

An open standard is something like a CD, which although invented and designed by Philips, was made an open standard as long as other manufacturers complied with its standards and interface. Whereas as a closed standard is something like the Canon EOS mount and interface which is kept secret and is not available to other manufacturers.

SteB said:

If you've never seen anything that states the 4/3 system is an open
standard then you've either never looked for it or previously read
much news about photography because I believe it was announced in
around 2003 and has hardly been a secret.
http://www.four-thirds.org/en/about/standard.html

Likewise you have obviously not read my previous posts in this threat
or you would know I'd said that it was questionable how much the
micro 4/3 standard is open or how much it is simply a collaboration
between Panasonic and Olympus, before the BJP link was posted.
However, I also made the point that as it happens to interface with
an open standard it would obviously be necessary to declare this
interface with regard to the open 4/3 standard.

An open standard is something like a CD, which although invented and
designed by Philips, was made an open standard as long as other
manufacturers complied with its standards and interface. Whereas as a
closed standard is something like the Canon EOS mount and interface
which is kept secret and is not available to other manufacturers.

Click to expand...

I merely quotet the press release which clearly state that 4/3 is an open standard. I don't knwo why you get so excited about this. Actually phillips collected royalties big time from anybody using the CD standard!

I have read your initial posting. And - yes what you write is correct.

But - I cannot say I have read any other posting that was irrelevant in any significant way.

So what is your point?

--
Roland

I think there is a misunderstandbing between us. I wasn't reponding to your post, but BJN's above. If you look at the timing our posts crossed over. I was typing my response to BJN when it appears you posted - my apologies.