FF vs APS-C: being serious...

The few useful and interesting posts I've seen on this thread have led to useful and interesting discussions. The rest are either agressive or are based on prejudice that is usually counterproductive. That, I'd say, regards fully your post, despite the best of intentions you might be having (and I appreciate that).

For me this thread is over and done with except for one branch that's interesting (at least for me).

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Omne solum forti patria est.
 
That's quite interesting. Never heard about that.

btw: is there a reason why readout noise (in your version) is a combination of readout and thermal noise? (The latter being extremely difficult to cope with and actually a big issue for large sensors...)

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Omne solum forti patria est.
 
I was meerly extending your argument to it's logical conclusion: That a smaller sensor P&S with a good lens is the best camera... if you don't take into account all the good things about a bigger sensor.

If you took it as an insult, I apologize.
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JOE FEDERER
Websites:
Misc personal stuff: http://www.joefederer.com
Minneapolis / St. Paul Wedding photography @ http://www.federerphotography.com
 
Other than a logical conclusion, it's "getting personal" that makes your comment slightly agressive. There's a huge difference between saying "so is it your thought that P&S is better than a DSLR?" and saying "so get yourself a P&S" (or something of the sort).

It's ok, no hard feelings at all and no apologies needed;)

PS. Btw, about DSLRs vs P&S: I think I've made a rather detailed comment about the issue somewhere in the thread;)

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Omne solum forti patria est.
 
The CONs of FF:

1) It costs more. Not only now, it'll always cost more, because it
costs more to make.
Yes. It cost more to make bigger sensors, but you pay if you want the advantages.
2) No digital crop means shorter tele and macro.
You can crop if you want to, nothing stopping you. With FF you can choose to crop.
3) Larger sensor means larger files, slower transfer, less fps than
APS-C (at least at the moment).
No, this is resolution. There are 12MP FF and 14MP APS. Heck 14MP pocket cameras are coming. This has little to do with sensor size except at the highest limits. So you can argue a specific camera, but not just size. Often the FF cameras will have more paths for faster transfer.
So actually the pixel density on an FF sensor is lower. Which means
that interpolation (i.e. the process that approximates RGB value for
every pixel from combining several channels measurement) is less
precise and hence is the actual colour, detail and sharpness. (If
anything, I'd rather have a 12MP APS-C real RGB sensor like the one
Sigma's working on, but that's a different kind of a story).
Already pointed out you have this backwards. Bigger pixels equals lower noise, better dynamic range and better per pixel sharpness given the same lens.
Another thing I actually dislike about FF is that it takes the
tele-range back to the stone age, making it impossible to get good
shots with "portable" glass. And given that a 100-450mm zoom costs
much more than a 70-300, that's a big problem. Wide angle, on the
other hand, does not cost that much even if digital crop is taken
into consideration and is generally less useful. So "the blessing of
digital crop" is actually an important issue.
Again you miss the point. Nothing stops you from cropping your full frame.

Take a classic 24-70. On APS you get
36-105. Your wide end is GONE.

Now on the new 24MP Sony FF: you get:

24-105. You get your wide end and at the long end you can crop down to APS size and still match the reach of an APS sensor.

Price is the only reason I wouldn't get a FF. Sometimes the best stuff cost more money.
 
Just a quick note about the noise:

there are two or three types of noise to be taken into consideration:

1) readout noise (it's constant for every given sensor)
2) thermal noise (changes according to environment, continuous work, etc)
3) shot noise

I've been mostly talking about shot noise that potentially increases non-linearly in function of the projection surface and depends on a lot of different and unpredictable factors. FF = more shot noise just as FF = more light. More shot noise - bad thing. More light - good thing. The lower my pixel density is, the less probability I've got to handle shot noise down the line. So: FF = More light = More noise / Less density = Worse shot noise handling.

Moving to the other two noise types (being the ones somehow considered more important by most of people around here):

1) readout noise is claimed to reduce on a "larger pixel sensor". I have my doubts about that. Readout noise depends on the circuitry, material and a lot of other parameters. I tend to believe it's going to be more or less the same on FF and APS-C sensor of the same generation.

2) Thermal noise: given a larger chamber, more light, bigger shutter, higher resolution and other factors, I actually thing it's going to increase on FF. (Unless Sony comes up with some pretty interesting solutions to the problem).

Something about SSS now:

1) If APS-C needs a 2mm gap, FF needs a bigger gap to achieve the same results. I hope the geometry is quite clear here...

2) Now - with a bigger gap and a bigger sensor it turns out we need more precision. More precision means: more computing power to calculate the compensation and a more precision in sensor movement coordination. The last part being purely mechanical leaves me somewhat doubtful about the results...

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Omne solum forti patria est.
 
I don't wan't FF, you can keep them! The augments here are ridiculous...If we were talking about cars then anything less than a AMG or M series car would be inadequate. This is the kind of disinformation that theis to obviate the use of SSS and advocate bringing a tripod everywhere.

I read so many sthat drip w/ snobbery on this thread I can't believe that the posters can look in the mirror w/o a medium frame sensor like a Hasselblad...

I'm not a pro and have a life outside of photography. For everything I do, APS works fine; in fact if a modern 2/3" prosumer w/o shutter lag like a KM A2 successor came out I'd be all over it.

Flame on all of you pixel peepers and wannabee pros. If you really want the best for this pro segment I suggest you move away from Sony DSLRs and get a system where you can rent lenses or stand tall on a medium format camera.

Me and 85%+ of the DSLR market will continue to love the fact we don't schlep a ton of heavy gear on our travels and can focus on the experience instead of getting anal over a picture that IF taken correctly is 5% better. We like APS cameras.

Face it...If you are hard core enough to justify FF you may as well head over to an ESTABLISHED pro level camp such as Canon or Nikon. (unless you already own a few thousand $ of Minolta glass).

Flame on!
 
Oy!

Calm down;)))) I agree that some falks have been somewhat, err, snobbish in this thread. That's something that happens when a delicate argument (like this one) is discussed. But I'm afraid you've exaggerated a bit;)))

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Omne solum forti patria est.
 
chill.

no one is dissing aps cameras, they will have a big role for many years to come. FF does have some tangible advantages as well though, and the prospect of a new FF from Sony is understandably leading to a certain level of excitement here... a lot will depend on price. If the new FF's are priced as AMG's then interest will wither... Hopefully they will not.
I don't wan't FF, you can keep them! The augments here are
ridiculous...If we were talking about cars then anything less than a
AMG or M series car would be inadequate. This is the kind of
disinformation that theis to obviate the use of SSS and advocate
bringing a tripod everywhere.
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http://mike2008.smugmug.com
 
So you're saying you reduce the 1Ds3 image to the same amount of
pixels the 5D has, right? By doing that you are eliminating noise
during downsizing. You cannot compare noise that way for two
sensors with much different pixel counts, sorry.
Why?
Because you're not comparing each camera at its native resolution. If you're going to downsize a 21MP image to 12MP, you might as well upsize the 12MP image to 21MP to compare sharpness between the two sensors, right? See, that makes little sense too.
 
Ah, so your misunderstanding goes deeper.
1) readout noise (it's constant for every given sensor)
2) thermal noise (changes according to environment, continuous work, etc)
3) shot noise
Shot Noise - AKA Poisson distribution variation, AKA random packet count...
I've been mostly talking about shot noise that potentially increases
non-linearly in function of the projection surface and depends on a
snip
to handle shot noise down the line. So: FF = More light = More noise
/ Less density = Worse shot noise handling.
Shot noise will not be worse on FF because more area evens the average. Only light intensity dictates how random the photons are, and it only matters in weak light, say shooting in star light. Shot noise is so small I’m not even sure the current sensor technology can pick it up. All the same, shot noise is an argument for FF/low density; given the same technology, the bigger light well will collect more photons and show less deviation. The smaller the light well due to higher resolution or smaller sensor size, the fewer photons collected and the greater the deviation (noise) proportionally.
Moving to the other two noise types (being the ones somehow
considered more important by most of people around here):
More important because it’s visible...
1) readout noise is claimed to reduce on a "larger pixel sensor". I
have my doubts about that. Readout noise depends on the circuitry,
material and a lot of other parameters. I tend to believe it's going
to be more or less the same on FF and APS-C sensor of the same
generation.
Readout noise also depends on the proximity of the circuits. Just as light falls off with the square of the distance, so does every other EM field. The larger, lower density sensor has the circuitry farther apart (with a stronger signal), and as such the EMF interference is weaker. The noise created off sensor remains, but the sensor will send a stronger signal. You simply cannot ignore the fact that the S/N ratio is what matters. All noise suppression schemes rely on the strength of the signal in contrast to the (hopefully) weaker noise to have any success. Higher density smaller sensors will have more readout noise because of the closer circuits and transistors causing EMF interference.
2) Thermal noise: given a larger chamber, more light, bigger shutter,
higher resolution and other factors, I actually thing it's going to
increase on FF. (Unless Sony comes up with some pretty interesting
solutions to the problem).
Thermal noise is easier to control. A higher resolution sensor will be subject to greater thermal loads than a lower density of the same size do to the high transistor count. However, the larger FF shutter and mirror motions funnel in more cool air, the larger chamber contains a greater air volume which will take longer to heat during use, and the FF sensor gains beneficial surface area to allow heat to dissipate more rapidly compared to a smaller format.
Something about SSS now:
1) If APS-C needs a 2mm gap, FF needs a bigger gap to achieve the
same results. I hope the geometry is quite clear here...
Are you going to shake more because you are holding a FF? The geometry is quite clear, regardless of whether the sensor is FF or APS. The distance between the rear element and the sensor is fixed and so is the distance to the lens' nodal point. The shake both in distance and time period, while varying from person to person, is a fixed average. As I said, 2 degrees of swing around a fixed fulcrum distance will always be the same result. If an APS-C needs to move 2mm, so too will the FF. Due to the design of some lenses, there could be some vignetting or some distortions softening the image in the corners, but this will hardly be universal. Instead it will depend on the lens in question as well as the relative instability of the photographer. Even so, none of this means that there will be much more motion for a FF compared to an APS-C because we are still talking about the same shake.
2) Now - with a bigger gap and a bigger sensor it turns out we need
more precision. More precision means: more computing power to
calculate the compensation and a more precision in sensor movement
coordination. The last part being purely mechanical leaves me
somewhat doubtful about the results...
More precision will certainly come with each generation, but this is independent of the sensor size. Power drain may occur from stronger motors that will have to accelerate a more massive sensor tray. This may or may not affect battery life; I don't know the mass of an APS-C assembly, nor do I know the draw of the current motors so I have no way to calculate it.

All of these theoretical arguments are moot, proof is out there. There are FF sensors and results can be seen all over the net. The D3 is far less dense than the A700 and its high ISO shots are much lower in noise. The greater distances, larger light wells, and greater cooling surfaces are contributing to high signals with low noise with great results. The higher density 1DsIII produces more noise than the D3 because of the tighter proximity of circuits and the somewhat higher thermal loads of the extra transistors, but then it's newer design and technologies help it match the noise performance of the older, lower resolution 5D. The 5D mkII will likely be better than the 1DsIII in noise performance, while not matching it in absolute detail, but all these differences are only viewable at 100% or really huge print sizes. All evidence indicates better FF IQ performance compared to APS-C, the cons are in cost and size of supporting hardware. Will FF become much more main stream over time? Yes. Will APS-C be gone any time soon? No.

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-Dylan Anderson
 
So you're saying you reduce the 1Ds3 image to the same amount of
pixels the 5D has, right? By doing that you are eliminating noise
during downsizing. You cannot compare noise that way for two
sensors with much different pixel counts, sorry.
Why?
Because you're not comparing each camera at its native resolution.
If you're going to downsize a 21MP image to 12MP, you might as well
upsize the 12MP image to 21MP to compare sharpness between the two
sensors, right? See, that makes little sense too.
No, that DOES make sense to compare in that way. Sizing two camera's outputs to the same size is the only way one should compare them, whether it be for noise, detail, etc.
 
I don't wan't FF, you can keep them! The augments here are
ridiculous...
Ummm ... dude ... the arguments here have been that FF image quality is better in direct response to specific claims by the OP. What's ridiculous about that ?
If we were talking about cars then anything less than a
AMG or M series car would be inadequate.
Yeah, see the thing is, nobody is saying that the OP should prefer FF. People are just saying his rationalizations are bogus. I think several people who pointed out his bogus reasons (myself included) plainly said that there's no need to rationalize the decision to stick with APS-C; FF is expensive and wasted money for many of us. In short, if he doesn't want FF, fine, I don't either. But I'm not going to post a thread with a bunch of made up fallacies about the inferiority of FF to rationalize my decision or making me feel better about settling for APS-C.

I think most of the people in this thread who disagreed with the OP's logic are in agreement with your analysis of the need for FF, so I'm really not sure who these imaginary "pretenders", "wannabes" and "snobs" are. (Pardon me if I missed one along the way).
  • Dennis
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Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
 
But I'm not
going to post a thread with a bunch of made up fallacies about the
inferiority of FF to rationalize my decision or making me feel better
about settling for APS-C.
This is extremely offensive and way beyond the line. You can't read my mind and can't tell what has made me start the thread. Going for what seems to you the obvious [to you] only means that this would [probably] be a natural way for you to behave. Not for others. So if there's anything really false around here – these are your assumptions.

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Omne solum forti patria est.
 
Thanks hum469 for your post, very clear. We need more posts like this with real info.

I share with zoomstein the frustration of having these overly aggressive posts. I have in the past been guiilty of this myself, and it really isn't useful at all. Let's disagree amiably, no?

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http://mike2008.smugmug.com
 

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