Is the 1dsmk3 sensor worth $4k more than the 1dmk3

jgb · Jul 25, 2008

Jamie H. said:
Canon prices their pro gear based on what the market will bear, not
based on how much it costs them to produce.

The only real difference between the 1DIII and the 1DsIII is the
sensor. The 1DsIII sensor cost maybe $1000 more maximum than the
1DIII sensor, yet the camera costs $3500 more. They charge $3500
more because they can and because people have no choice but to pay it
if they want the 1DsIII's sensor capabilities.

If you can wait 4 months, the 1DsIII will have some SERIOUS
competition and the price will drop substantially. The competition
will come from Canon (5DII), Nikon (D3x), and Sony (A900).

Dragos Nenciu said:

I just tested the 1dmk3 and 1dsmk3 side by side today and honestly
the image quality to me was better on the 1dmk3 than the 1dsmk3.

Sure 1ds mk3 has higher mpx and more detail if you need it. But the
1d mk3 has much better shadow noise even at low iso.

And if you don't print large enough to need the extra resolution you
are losing image quality.

Personally I don't think that the sensor in the 1dsmk3 is worth $4k
more than the 1dmk3.

Yes the 1ds is FF and 1d is crop. And yes that is also the reason I
went from a 1dmk2 to a 5D I don't regret my choice but I don't really
like the body/features on the 5D and would like to return to a 1
series body.

Is just that I can either lose the FF by buying a 1dmk3 or pay a lot
more money and slow my whole PP process to get worse images from the
1dsmk3.

So anybody else thinks the 1dsmk3 should not be selling for 8k?

Click to expand...

--

Amateurs worry about sharpness
Professionals worry about sales
Photographers worry about light

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--
Galleries: http://www.pbase.com/jon_b

Michael_J · Jul 25, 2008

Jamie H. said:
I hope the 24MP Nikon D3x comes in at $5500. And I also hope its
better than the 1DsIII.

Canon prices their pro gear based on what the market will bear, not
based on how much it costs them to produce.

So?!!! Should a Van Gogh be priced based on how long it took to paint it?

I got news for you, they price ALL of their products based on what the market will bear. If the market won't bear the price, they will lower it (if they can) or stop producing it.

Jamie H. said:
The only real difference between the 1DIII and the 1DsIII is the
sensor.

So all the other differences aren't real.

The 1DsIII sensor cost maybe $1000 more maximum than the

Jamie H. said:
1DIII sensor, yet the camera costs $3500 more.

Maybe there are some other factors and costs you are unaware of?

They charge $3500

Jamie H. said:
more because they can and because people have no choice but to pay it
if they want the 1DsIII's sensor capabilities.

The same can be said about the D3. So what?

Jamie H. said:
If you can wait 4 months, the 1DsIII will have some SERIOUS
competition and the price will drop substantially.

So?

The competition

Jamie H. said:
will come from Canon (5DII), Nikon (D3x), and Sony (A900).

So maybe the Nikon D3x and Sony A900 will compete against the 5DMKII.

Do you think the 1Ds series will cease production, or will they introduce a new 1D series body to trump the competition?

--
People who claim to be open minded never see it my way.

maxz · Jul 25, 2008

Jamie H. said:
I hope the 24MP Nikon D3x comes in at $5500. And I also hope its
better than the 1DsIII.

If D3x does come in a conventional DSLR design (instead of the rumoured modular system), it won't cost more than $6k for sure. Heck even if 1Ds3 is priced at 6K, it still look very overpriced compared to a 6K D3x... it probably will be canon's fastest depreciating pro model. I remember when I ordered my 1ds2 it was a year after announcement, I still paid $8k and had to wait a week before the store had it in stock... funny how fast the tide turns isn't it...

Jamie H. said:
The only real difference between the 1DIII and the 1DsIII is the
sensor. The 1DsIII sensor cost maybe $1000 more maximum than the
1DIII sensor, yet the camera costs $3500 more. They charge $3500
more because they can and because people have no choice but to pay it
if they want the 1DsIII's sensor capabilities.

My guess is sensor cost maybe $200 difference... Ironically when they advertise how they advanced technology and reduced sensor mfg cost significantly... ooops, that saving isn't for you my loyal customers.

Jamie H. said:
If you can wait 4 months, the 1DsIII will have some SERIOUS
competition and the price will drop substantially. The competition
will come from Canon (5DII), Nikon (D3x), and Sony (A900).

Yep big ouch for those who bought 1ds3...
Max

BobHo · Jul 25, 2008

If the Nikon D700X/D800 and FF Sony are $3500 and 24MP, is Canon going to drop the 1DsMkIII price by $3000 when those two models start shipping? If I owned a 1DMkIII and/or 5D (I do own a 40D and 5D), unless I absolutely had to have the 21MP immediately, there is no way I'd buy a 1DsMkIII before at least September.

The 1DMkIII is only a year old model. It was announced last fall, 3 days before the Nikon D3. Supposedly, Nikon management "breathed a huge sigh of relief" when the 1DsMkIII was announced, since it meant that they probably had 2 years until Canon would meet or beat what they (Nikon) had planned.

--
Bob

dtuason · Jul 25, 2008

maxz said:
Yep big ouch for those who bought 1ds3...
Max

Hehehe! LOL!

I am prepared for ther big ouch!

Danny Tuason

--
http://www.scandinavius.com/sweden/sesongs.html#anchor1139692

Michael_J · Jul 25, 2008

Jamie H. said:
And that is my point entirely. canon has been taking advantage of

... an opportunity they created, they've been taking advantage of their hard work, they've been taking advantage of their ingenuity, they've been taking advantage of their superiority over their competitors. Just like a good company should.

Jamie H. said:
its consumers for a lonnnng time with the pricing on its 1Ds.
Hopefully that practice will come to a screeching halt this fall.

And then start up again with the release of the 1DsMKIV. :-D

Learn to make more money and it won't be an issue - or learn to deal with life without whining.

Canon is not in business to give you their top camera at a price you can afford - what about the poor smuck that can't afford what you've got? Should Canon base their prices on each persons ability to pay?

This is a planet of whiners.

--
People who claim to be open minded never see it my way.

Osiris Ani · Jul 25, 2008

Jamie H. said:
canon has been taking advantage of its consumers for a lonnnng time with the pricing on its 1Ds.

You see, for-profit corporations charge what the market will bear. That's the most elementary business practice, and their corporate shareholders would quite rightfully cry foul if they chose to do otherwise.

As has been previously stated, "overpriced" products do not sell, and yet, the 1Ds series has buyers. Quod erat demonstrandum.

--
"Passion will make you crazy, but is there any other way to live?" —Kara Saun

Cultured Vulture · Jul 25, 2008

Michael_J said:
If the 1Ds series was overpriced, it wouldn't sell - if it didn't
sell they wouldn't keep making more.

Agreed, their the only one with 21MP in a 35mm body.

Michael_J said:
The D3 is over priced, it cost more than the 1DMKIII.

No, for the same reason as above. Only FF in the Sports/PJ market.

Michael_J said:
The D700 is over priced, it cost more than the 5D.

No, 3 years newer, with more capability. We'll see when the 5D successor is released.

Michael_J said:
jindrich said:

Canon has been the king of the DLSR for years without any kind of
serious competition, so it could set prices of its cameras as high as
the company saw fit. The 1Ds has always been overpriced because it is
the flagship model and so customers had to pay for the privilege of
it. That happens in every other company, look at the first iPhone for
instance.

But now the game has changed. Nikon (and soon Sony) is hitting very
hard with innovative products in the DSLR camp. On the other hand, MF
manufacturers are pushing similarily on their "low end" stuff, where
the 1Ds belongs. As an example, a Hasselbald H3D body complete with
viewfinder, a 31mpx back and a 80mm lens sells for just €12k, which
certainly makes the 1Dsmk3 at €9k (body+a comparable 50mmL) way
overpriced.

Click to expand...

But, wyaaa, the Hasselblad is too big, the Hasselbald is too heavy,
wyaaa, the Hasselbald is too expensive and over priced, why can't
they make it to fit in my pocket? Why can't they they put a pop-up
flash on it? It should only cost $749 so I can buy 3 of them, the
lens should be free.

Actually, the Hasselblad does have a pop-up flash.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/522925-REG/Hasselblad_70380550_H3DII_31_SLR_Digital_Camera.html#Flash

Other than your very sarcastic tone, I for the most part agree with you. Canon, Nikon, Sony....etc. do not owe their customers anything. In a free market, they can price their products as they please. Since the only high MP 35mm based DSLR is Canon at this point, they can to a point, charge what they please. What I'm not sure of, is it the best strategy for Canon to use. That is assuming that there is the margin left in the 1DsIII that people (myself included) are assuming. If Nikon releases (more assumption) a D3 body with a 24MP sensor that give basically equal performance or better when compared to a 1DsIII, at let's say for the sake of argument, $6K. Canon, not wanting to lose business to Nikon will probably match that price or at least come close. This is liable to annoy some of their top end customers. They will wonder why Canon is suddenly able to sell that camera for $2K less. Will that be fatal for Canon? No, of course not. Most people that have pro-level bodies are also invested fairly heavily in that system. People also have short attention spans, they'll forget about it in a few months. I wonder if Canon might better have served their own interests by dropping the price now, rather than later. It might take a lot of potential customers off the fence and invested in Canon. You know what they say "a bird in the hand." One thing I know for sure. The more competitive players we have, the better it will be for the consumer. The worst thing that could happen would be for one of the major players to be left alone in the market. That's the reason, I am personally hoping the 5DMkII or whatever, is a great advance over the 5D and priced below the D700. That will keep the fur flying.

Michael_J said:
--
People who claim to be open minded never see it my way.

I have that same problem

--
Respond to rudeness with civility, it really annoys them.

Regards,

JR

gml · Jul 25, 2008

Michael_J said:
If the market won't bear the price, they will
lower it (if they can) or stop producing it.

Yup. And this is exactly what's in store for the 1Ds3. The era of $8K FF cameras will be over for good in less than 2 months.

Canon will have to either lower the price (unlikely) or quietly discontinue the 1Ds3 althogether (much more likely, IMO).

Michael_J · Jul 25, 2008

maxz said:
Jamie H. said:

I hope the 24MP Nikon D3x comes in at $5500. And I also hope its
better than the 1DsIII.

Click to expand...

Ambiguous hope is all the rage these days.

maxz said:
If D3x does come in a conventional DSLR design (instead of the
rumoured modular system), it won't cost more than $6k for sure. Heck
even if 1Ds3 is priced at 6K, it still look very overpriced compared
to a 6K D3x... it probably will be canon's fastest depreciating pro
model. I remember when I ordered my 1ds2 it was a year after
announcement, I still paid $8k and had to wait a week before the
store had it in stock... funny how fast the tide turns isn't it...

maxz said:

The only real difference between the 1DIII and the 1DsIII is the
sensor. The 1DsIII sensor cost maybe $1000 more maximum than the
1DIII sensor, yet the camera costs $3500 more. They charge $3500
more because they can and because people have no choice but to pay it
if they want the 1DsIII's sensor capabilities.

Click to expand...

My guess is sensor cost maybe $200 difference...

I think aliens make the cameras and give them to Canon free - so the price is pure profit. Pretty shrewd Canon!

Ironically when they

maxz said:
advertise how they advanced technology and reduced sensor mfg cost
significantly... ooops, that saving isn't for you my loyal customers.

Sure it is, in the form of the Drebel, 40D, and 5D... and, yes, even the 1D series bodies have dropped in price from their introduction. What Canon DSLR can not be found at a cheaper price from what it was when first introduced? NONE.

maxz said:
maxz said:

If you can wait 4 months, the 1DsIII will have some SERIOUS
competition and the price will drop substantially. The competition
will come from Canon (5DII), Nikon (D3x), and Sony (A900).

Click to expand...

Yep big ouch for those who bought 1ds3...
Max

I don't see how someone paying less, 4-6 months down the road, hurts the person who buys now. Especially, if the camera is tax deductible and you are earning a living with it.

Would it still be a "big ouch" if one were unaware of the other "future" cameras?

This forum is full of people scared stiff of purchasing a camera because of what might be coming in 6 months.

What happens if you wait 4 months, and the competition delays the introduction another 2 months - what do you do then? Then you might only be 4 months away from Canon's new camera and it's a humdinger. So you wait another 4 months, the time passes with you complaining everyday on Dpreview. Canon's humdinger camera is delayed 3 months. The competitions camera is, in the mean time, is sold out... with a 3 month waiting period. Canon finally delivers the humdinger, but it's "over priced". So you place an order and wait 4 months to get the Nikon 24mp cam, but then Canon gives out rebait coupons for their humdinger making it $50 less than the Nikon - you refuse delivery of your Nikon. But the humdinger is now back ordered - 3 months. By now the Nikon is "old", can't have that. All you can do is wait for a better, cheaper camera to come along..... one that is cutting edge and not over priced.

--
People who claim to be open minded never see it my way.

Michael_J · Jul 25, 2008

gml said:
Michael_J said:

If the market won't bear the price, they will
lower it (if they can) or stop producing it.

Click to expand...

Yup. And this is exactly what's in store for the 1Ds3. The era of $8K
FF cameras will be over for good in less than 2 months.
Canon will have to either lower the price (unlikely) or quietly
discontinue the 1Ds3 althogether (much more likely, IMO).

--
People who claim to be open minded never see it my way.

Michael_J · Jul 25, 2008

Cultured Vulture said:
Michael_J said:

If the 1Ds series was overpriced, it wouldn't sell - if it didn't
sell they wouldn't keep making more.

Click to expand...

Agreed, their the only one with 21MP in a 35mm body.

Cultured Vulture said:

The D3 is over priced, it cost more than the 1DMKIII.

Click to expand...

Was joking.

Cultured Vulture said:
No, for the same reason as above. Only FF in the Sports/PJ market.

Cultured Vulture said:

The D700 is over priced, it cost more than the 5D.

Click to expand...

Was joking.

Cultured Vulture said:
No, 3 years newer, with more capability. We'll see when the 5D
successor is released.

Cultured Vulture said:

jindrich said:

Canon has been the king of the DLSR for years without any kind of
serious competition, so it could set prices of its cameras as high as
the company saw fit. The 1Ds has always been overpriced because it is
the flagship model and so customers had to pay for the privilege of
it. That happens in every other company, look at the first iPhone for
instance.

But now the game has changed. Nikon (and soon Sony) is hitting very
hard with innovative products in the DSLR camp. On the other hand, MF
manufacturers are pushing similarily on their "low end" stuff, where
the 1Ds belongs. As an example, a Hasselbald H3D body complete with
viewfinder, a 31mpx back and a 80mm lens sells for just €12k, which
certainly makes the 1Dsmk3 at €9k (body+a comparable 50mmL) way
overpriced.

Click to expand...

But, wyaaa, the Hasselblad is too big, the Hasselbald is too heavy,
wyaaa, the Hasselbald is too expensive and over priced, why can't
they make it to fit in my pocket? Why can't they they put a pop-up
flash on it? It should only cost $749 so I can buy 3 of them, the
lens should be free.

Click to expand...

Actually, the Hasselblad does have a pop-up flash.

?!?!?! NO! Say it isn't so! That does it, no true professional camera has a pop-up flash, I'm never buying a Hasselblad!

Cultured Vulture said:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/522925-REG/Hasselblad_70380550_H3DII_31_SLR_Digital_Camera.html#Flash

Other than your very sarcastic tone,

But that's my best characteristic. :-D

I for the most part agree with

Cultured Vulture said:
you. Canon, Nikon, Sony....etc. do not owe their customers anything.
In a free market, they can price their products as they please. Since
the only high MP 35mm based DSLR is Canon at this point, they can to
a point, charge what they please. What I'm not sure of, is it the
best strategy for Canon to use. That is assuming that there is the
margin left in the 1DsIII that people (myself included) are assuming.
If Nikon releases (more assumption) a D3 body with a 24MP sensor that
give basically equal performance or better when compared to a 1DsIII,
at let's say for the sake of argument, $6K. Canon, not wanting to
lose business to Nikon will probably match that price or at least
come close. This is liable to annoy some of their top end customers.
They will wonder why Canon is suddenly able to sell that camera for
$2K less. Will that be fatal for Canon? No, of course not. Most
people that have pro-level bodies are also invested fairly heavily in
that system. People also have short attention spans, they'll forget
about it in a few months. I wonder if Canon might better have served
their own interests by dropping the price now, rather than later. It
might take a lot of potential customers off the fence and invested in
Canon. You know what they say "a bird in the hand." One thing I know
for sure. The more competitive players we have, the better it will be
for the consumer. The worst thing that could happen would be for one
of the major players to be left alone in the market. That's the
reason, I am personally hoping the 5DMkII or whatever, is a great
advance over the 5D and priced below the D700. That will keep the fur
flying.

I'm sure I would agree with much of what you had to say, but with the lack of spacing I gave up reading it.

Cultured Vulture said:
Cultured Vulture said:

--
People who claim to be open minded never see it my way.

Click to expand...

I have that same problem

Open minded people ALWAYS see it my way - but don't ALWAYS agree.

--
People who claim to be open minded never see it my way.

gml · Jul 25, 2008

Yes, I will.

The Nikon D3 changed the pro market irreversibly. The 1D-1Ds combo that served Canon so well for the past 6 years will have to be retired.

Because of the D3, Canon do not have a choice but to make the 1D4 (in 2009) a 16mp/10fps FF camera with very high ISO performance. And because of the D3 again, the 1D4 cannot be priced for more than $5K.

You realize that once such camera is released, the 1Ds3 at $8K will be killed by Canon's own 1D4 - let alone the competition.
So, what are they going to do - lower the price of the 1Ds3 to $5K as well?
It doesn't work this way.

BobHo · Jul 25, 2008

It's still a perfectly viable model, although very overpriced for the marketplace. And, if it is discontinued, what will it be replaced by? Or will Canon just abandon that market segment?

What surprises me is that Canon hasn't been reducing its price regularly since last fall and particularly since PMA.

gml said:
Canon will have to either lower the price (unlikely) or quietly
discontinue the 1Ds3 althogether (much more likely, IMO).

--
Bob

gml · Jul 25, 2008

Bob Howland said:
It's still a perfectly viable model, although very overpriced for the
marketplace. And, if it is discontinued, what will it be replaced by?
Or will Canon just abandon that market segment?

See my previous post about the Canon 1D4.

You know these rumors about the Nikon D800 - a D700 with a 24mp sensor? I'm betting that Canon will be the first to market with such body. This is what will replace the 1Ds3.
In 2009 we'll see a complete makeover of the 1-series line.

Osiris Ani · Jul 25, 2008

gml said:
And because of the D3 again, the 1D4 cannot be priced for more than $5K.

Considering that Canon is pricing the 1D Mk III at ~$4500 (which is available from dealers for ~$4000), the same price at which it introduced the 1D Mk II in 2004— 3.5 years before the announcement of the Nikon D3— I don't think a sub-$5000 price for its successor would have much to do with the D3. It's really more about the reality of Canon's basic 1D series pricing structure.

gml said:
You realize that once such camera is released, the 1Ds3 at $8K will be killed by Canon's own 1D4 - let alone the competition.

...for those whose needs are met by such a camera, as opposed to the 1Ds III.

--
"Passion will make you crazy, but is there any other way to live?" —Kara Saun

Osiris Ani · Jul 25, 2008

BobHo said:
What surprises me is that Canon hasn't been reducing its price regularly since last fall and particularly since PMA.

In the time surrounding PMA, they still couldn't keep the 1Ds III on store shelves for very long. Why reduce the price of a product with demand exceeding supply?

--
"Passion will make you crazy, but is there any other way to live?" —Kara Saun

Michael_J · Jul 25, 2008

Bob Howland said:
It's still a perfectly viable model, although very overpriced for the
marketplace.

You really don't know what "over priced" means, do you?

The 1DsMKIII is the cheapest 21mp FF DLSR on the market today.

And, if it is discontinued, what will it be replaced by?

BobHo said:
Or will Canon just abandon that market segment?

Daff.
Canon will not abandon the FF market segment.

BobHo said:
What surprises me is that Canon hasn't been reducing its price
regularly since last fall and particularly since PMA.

The prices, as is with all of their DSLR's, are always reduced as they get older - they just don't do it on your timetable.

BobHo said:
gml said:

Canon will have to either lower the price (unlikely) or quietly
discontinue the 1Ds3 althogether (much more likely, IMO).

Click to expand...

--
Bob

--
People who claim to be open minded never see it my way.

Michael_J · Jul 25, 2008

Osiris Ani said:
Osiris Ani said:

What surprises me is that Canon hasn't been reducing its price regularly since last fall and particularly since PMA.

Click to expand...

In the time surrounding PMA, they still couldn't keep the 1Ds III on
store shelves for very long. Why reduce the price of a product with
demand exceeding supply?

Because it's "over priced"!! \;-D

Osiris Ani said:
--
"Passion will make you crazy, but is there any other way to live?"
—Kara Saun

--
People who claim to be open minded never see it my way.

gml · Jul 25, 2008

Osiris Ani said:
Osiris Ani said:

You realize that once such camera is released, the 1Ds3 at $8K will be killed by Canon's own 1D4 - let alone the competition.

Click to expand...

...for those whose needs are met by such a camera, as opposed to the
1Ds III.

Right. Except that such needs will also be met by a 24mp D3x for (likely) $5-6K and a 24mp A900 for (likely) $3500.

Certain individual buyers will keep buying the 1Ds3 even if it costs $15K. For others, however, cameras are just business expenses. Unfortunately for Canon, these latter buyers are not brand loyal – they will buy into whatever system gives them most return on investment. The D3/D3x/D700 is shaping up as a terrific combo that covers a lot of ground for less than what the Canon current system offers.

Is the 1dsmk3 sensor worth $4k more than the 1dmk3

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