DPR reviews/reviewers

Chad Marek · Jul 24, 2008

The debate is over. It is happening. Every single peer reviewed study shows it. Ever single one. (The Neocon hot-head articles and oil-company commission "studies" are not peer-reviewed. Just in case that was the ONE thing in the entire world you didn't know)

But, I am sure I am wrong in some way in your mind, regardless of the facts.

I should have known better than to question those that shall not be questioned.

--
Refusing to take pictures of my cats.

lonewolf69 · Jul 24, 2008

Most of you know me as a long time member here in this forum, the level of "negativity" on this forum has been constantly escalating to the point where I'm hardly posting anymore.

If it's not complaints against SONY (SURE, high prices, no FF yet...) then it's about DPREview (biased reviews, banning of DK, "translating" Simon or Phil's reviews...)

sigh hopefully relief will be in sight shortly when the FF Flagship finally arrives but somehow, I doubt it...

--
-Alex

From the minds of Minolta to the imagination of Sony, Alpha, like no other.

http://www.pbase.com/lonewolf69

Klipsen · Jul 24, 2008

And then only to those unfortunate few who have invested heavily in expensive Minolta and Sony lenses. All others: "Let it go! - if it ain't Canon, it better be Nikon".

I just had to spend most of my "camera-savings" on a new used car, so I'm not in the market for an upgrade from my A700. If Sony does like the rest of the crowd, maybe in three years' time there'll be something much more affordable and even better.

tbcass · Jul 24, 2008

NickGreen said:
...and whats wrong with that? Yes, Dpreview are biased. And
unsurprisingly they're biased towards image quality. If you don't
like that preference they're plenty of alternatives with a more
forgiving approach to camera reviews.

NickGreen said:
I say to Dpreview carry on being happily biased to image quality!

Not entirely true. They judge IQ based on pixel level differences that are marginal at best and invisible for most practical purposes. Sorry but I can't agree with you or DP Review.

--
Tom

Look at the picture, not the pixels

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/

Zamac · Jul 24, 2008

For my part I find the dpr reviews both interesting and valuable. While there are minor issues in other places, it is really the conclusion page that is open to criticism. This page is, and inevitably must be opinion. Readers must accept this and post their own conclusions where they disagree rather than criticizing the reviewer. However, dpr is not without fault: the numerical ratings give a false impression of objectivity - even when based on facts they still remain largely subjective. Replace them with more general terms, say ranging from "below average" to "outstanding". Finally the recommendation - I would personally like to see it go, but I doubt this would happen as there are too many people around who want their minds made up for them. However, specifying the target group for the recommendation would be a valuable addition e.g. Highly recommended for beginners etc.

cgarrard · Jul 24, 2008

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1037&message=28721592
--
This is my signature line, there are many like it but this one is mine.

tbcass · Jul 24, 2008

Simon Joinson said:
I know! And then we just get all 'prickly' about feedback like this!
Anyone would think we were human!

But a professional should put their feelings aside and remain above it all. "Prickly" responses are unprofessional. I'm retired now but my Job as a construction inspector often involved dealing with many unruly people. We were expected to hold our tongues and behave in a professional manor. To do otherwise would result in a reprimand.
--
Tom

Look at the picture, not the pixels

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/

Warpspasm · Jul 24, 2008

cmantx said:
any of you al gore critics ever won the nobel prize? i was hoping
politics wouldn't be appearing on this site. you inevitably get drawn
in to defend your particular ideology. (like i did)

You've GOT to be kidding! Do you REALLY think the Nobel Prize hasn't become political?

liquid stereo · Jul 24, 2008

Ken: I thought your madness was confined to Sony loyalty. I had no idea you were completely nuts.

Ken_5D said:
Barry Fitzgerald said:

I don't agree with the review, but I accept the review as it stands!
--

Click to expand...

I thought you meant you were going get a bigger house, buy 2 more
SUVS and take a private plane to your next speech on using less
energy

--
Ken_ 5D
(Happy A700 owner who hasn't sold the 5D yet hmm?)
See my stuff at http://www.cascadephotoworks.com
Read the detailed reviews at http://www.dpreview.com
Then read great Sony user info at: http://www.photoclubalpha.com

--
Direct your eye right inward, and you'll find a thousand
regions in your mind Yet undiscovered. Travel them, and
be Expert in home-cosmography.
-H.D. Thoreau

Klipsen · Jul 24, 2008

cmantx said:
any of you al gore critics ever won the nobel prize?

Very few people have. An argument like that proves nothing.

Can't Nobel Prize winners be horribly wrong? (Do some research before you answer).

Lucas_ · Jul 24, 2008

---

The data presented on reviews like the DPR ones and others is very good and it surelly teakes a lot of time and effort to be developed. Unfortunately they spoil the whole thing by sometimes stating a ridiculous conclusion, not consistent with their own data! That was the case of both Sonys A350 / A200 and Canon 1000D.

IMHO Reviews should not have "conclusions" since they can be subjective, dependant on the reviewer's momentary mood and even biased. That leads to erroneous recommendations and confusion, mainly on newbies.

I for one like to read the technical descriptions and data, even pros/cons but just totally disregard the conclusion. Especially on DPR.

... Lucas

--
You're welcome to: http://www.pbase.com/lucaspix/root

Always having fun with photography ...

john175bramley · Jul 24, 2008

Quite a big deal was made over the nose activating the focus button in the A200 review. Surely exactly the same problem should have occurred on the A350 when it was reviewed?

cmantx · Jul 24, 2008

Ken_5D said:
cmantx said:

cgarrard said:

Hi Al, hey check out all the melting ice. O
--
This is my signature line, there are many like it but this one is mine.

Click to expand...

any of you al gore critics ever won the nobel prize? i was hoping
politics wouldn't be appearing on this site. you inevitably get drawn
in to defend your particular ideology. (like i did)

Click to expand...

Just Science...

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24036736-7583,00.html

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5ieZJZzkWLLf2ZPP4ytqtD_yXFeZg
http://www.aps.org/units/fps/newsletters/200807/monckton.cfm

http://www.middlebury.net/op-ed/global-warming-01.html

seems like you should give someone that won a nobel prize a smidgen of respect. i don't have to be a scientist to see when driving near the downtown area of my city looking at the cloud of smog hovering around the buildings, that we (humans) are fouling the earth. anything that makes the air cleaner would be a step in the right direction. thats MY last on the subject. dissenters go for it.

--
Ken_ 5D
(Happy A700 owner who hasn't sold the 5D yet hmm?)
See my stuff at http://www.cascadephotoworks.com
Read the detailed reviews at http://www.dpreview.com
Then read great Sony user info at: http://www.photoclubalpha.com

Lars Rehm · Jul 24, 2008

No, because the back of the A350 is designed in a different way to the A200's.

john175bramley said:
Quite a big deal was made over the nose activating the focus button
in the A200 review. Surely exactly the same problem should have
occurred on the A350 when it was reviewed?

--
Lars Rehm, dpreview.com

ImWearingMyWifesKnickers · Jul 24, 2008

Highly Recommended (just)

jimb100 · Jul 24, 2008

Lucas_ said:
---
The data presented on reviews like the DPR ones and others is very
good and it surelly teakes a lot of time and effort to be developed.
Unfortunately they spoil the whole thing by sometimes stating a
ridiculous conclusion, not consistent with their own data! That was
the case of both Sonys A350 / A200 and Canon 1000D.
IMHO Reviews should not have "conclusions" since they can be
subjective, dependant on the reviewer's momentary mood and even
biased. That leads to erroneous recommendations and confusion, mainly
on newbies.
I for one like to read the technical descriptions and data, even
pros/cons but just totally disregard the conclusion. Especially on
DPR.

... Lucas

--
You're welcome to: http://www.pbase.com/lucaspix/root

Always having fun with photography ...

If all you want is a spec sheet, go the manufacturers web page and read the stats.

Knowing the reviewers here are biased towards image quality is a plus for me. Knowing that techno gizmos I'll likely never use are downgraded is fine with me.

You can't expect a reviewer to mirror YOUR bias.

Its the same with movie reviewers. You find one that mirrors your taste and then you can trust their reviews.

And don't tell me its not true about product reviews. To Consumer Reports Ferraris are unreliable get poor gas mileage. The Honda Accord will get better reviews. And you may agree! Others may disagree. Either can be right.

So stop whining about the reviewers. If you don't think IQ trumps all gizmos, don't read the conclusions.

Warpspasm · Jul 24, 2008

Lars Rehm said:
No, because the back of the A350 is designed in a different way to
the A200's.

Lars,

I just brought up the pictures of the back of each camera that are included with the reviews. I looked at them side by side, and other than the LCD, they look identical. If you can, measure the location and see if they're the same. I think they are. If so, it must have something to do with the LCD changing where you put the camera for viewing.

Lars Rehm · Jul 24, 2008

I have now actually gone to our big camera cupboard and got both cameras out. They are now lying right in front of me on my desk and I can confirm the following:

The controller on the A350 is about a centimeter further to the right plus the screen on the A350 sticks out quite a bit which sort of shields the controller from any protruding body parts.

Of course you could always commission a third party to undertake some independent research on the issue if you don't believe me ;-)

Warpspasm said:
Lars Rehm said:

No, because the back of the A350 is designed in a different way to
the A200's.

Click to expand...

Lars,

I just brought up the pictures of the back of each camera that are
included with the reviews. I looked at them side by side, and other
than the LCD, they look identical. If you can, measure the location
and see if they're the same. I think they are. If so, it must have
something to do with the LCD changing where you put the camera for
viewing.

--
Lars Rehm, dpreview.com

VLampa · Jul 24, 2008

skibum02116 said:
Over a period of time, those who have been forum members learned to
identify the various preferences and idiosyncracies of Phil and Simon
and were able to take those into account when reading their reviews.
Now, however, we have new reviewers like Lars and Richard, so it will
take some time to learn their quirks as we did with Phil and Simon. I
believe that once we, and they, complete the learning curve there
will be less controversy. That said, I do find that both Phil and
Simon have become a little prickly when issues about reviews have
been raised. Also, the issue of numerical scores needs to be
clarified. It makes no sense that the Canon EOS 1000d with 49.5
points is Highly Recommernded while the a350 with the same score is
only Recommended, not to mention that the a200 with 50 points is
Highly Recommended (just) Clearly some parts of these scores are
weighted more heavily by the reviewer, so it would be good to know
which ones and if they are consistent from reviewer to reviewer.
--
jkwex

You'd be prickly, too, if you wrote thorough reviews, only to be assailed by freeloader forum members on your site who simply happen to be deeply hurt since their homeboy brand didn't get top marks (which they feel they always, ALWAYS, ALWAYS deserve).

But hey, at least some of us can get amusement from these kind of threads.

Lucas_ · Jul 24, 2008

jimb100 said:
Lucas_ said:

---
The data presented on reviews like the DPR ones and others is very
good and it surelly teakes a lot of time and effort to be developed.
Unfortunately they spoil the whole thing by sometimes stating a
ridiculous conclusion, not consistent with their own data! That was
the case of both Sonys A350 / A200 and Canon 1000D.
IMHO Reviews should not have "conclusions" since they can be
subjective, dependant on the reviewer's momentary mood and even
biased. That leads to erroneous recommendations and confusion, mainly
on newbies.
I for one like to read the technical descriptions and data, even
pros/cons but just totally disregard the conclusion. Especially on
DPR.

... Lucas

--
You're welcome to: http://www.pbase.com/lucaspix/root

Always having fun with photography ...

Click to expand...

If all you want is a spec sheet, go the manufacturers web page and
read the stats.

I said: "I for one like to read the technical descriptions and data" - technical descriptions are actually the tests, graphics and comments they make, not just spec sheets ( those are data )!

jimb100 said:
Knowing the reviewers here are biased towards image quality is a plus
for me. Knowing that techno gizmos I'll likely never use are
downgraded is fine with me.

It takes some level of experience and knowledge to understand and use those "techno gizmos", many, like you I suppose, just use the "auto" settings and shoot almost like a P&S.

jimb100 said:
You can't expect a reviewer to mirror YOUR bias.

Nope, I want them to be professionals, no biases at all. If that's not possible they better don't express any conclusion, the reader will do that based on the their evaluation of the tests and data presented!

( actually I've already had Leica, Zeiss, Kodak, Nikon, Canon, Minolta and now Sony equipment - I don't need to be biased... )

jimb100 said:
Its the same with movie reviewers. You find one that mirrors your
taste and then you can trust their reviews.

Not really, maybe it makes you identify yourself more with the reviewer who has similar opinions to yours, but trust - that would be naive to say the least.

jimb100 said:
And don't tell me its not true about product reviews. To Consumer
Reports Ferraris are unreliable get poor gas mileage. The Honda
Accord will get better reviews. And you may agree! Others may
disagree. Either can be right.

Well, I've driven both and still like the Ferrari better, actually I like my Porsche even better... Seriously, nobody will judge an expensive car just by reading a review in his right mind, the same goes for for DSLR's ( at least for me! )

jimb100 said:
So stop whining about the reviewers. If you don't think IQ trumps all
gizmos, don't read the conclusions.

Whining? Hehe, IQ can be totally corrupted if the "gizmos" don't work right, and the opposite is also true!
You better get your reading, research and knowledge a bit recycled...!

... Lucas
--
You're welcome to: http://www.pbase.com/lucaspix/root

Always having fun with photography ...

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